Maternal Age as a serious reason to avoid pregnancy

[Xantippe]

Hoosier Daddy,

I just realized that the concept of the supererogatory is one that you may find helpful, but that I’m not quite up to explaining it. I’ll turn this over to my husband:

Xantippe’s husband says:

Catholic tradition has always distinguished between the morally required and the supererogatory. Chastity is required–celibacy is supererogatory. Giving for the needy is required, but only to the degree fitting with one’s station in life–more is supererogatory. The Reformation strongly attacked this doctrine, conflating the counsels of perfection with moral duties. There is an excellent discussion of the doctrine, and its roots in the Catholic tradition and especially Aquinas, in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on supererogation (scroll down to the paragraph starting with “The most notable exception”). This distinction should be borne firmly in mind in the context at hand.

That said, while heroic generosity in childbearing is greatly praiseworthy, John Paul II / Karol Wojtyla also emphasized the special moral value of self-control in periodic abstinence.

 

[7armyrugrats]

A few more thoughts:

1. Andrea Yates trusted God, too.

Was this really necessary? Knowing who she is and what she did? You know, she’s not a Catholic mom that represents any person on CAF at all, I am nearly 100% positive on that. People who truly trust God don’t murder their children. That is like mentioning a couple who had an NFP “failure” and decided to have an abortion instead of giving birth. Can you not see how offensive that is?

 

[maryjk]

1. More seriously, as a nearly 39-year-old mother of three who has been pregnant four times, I think that there is an analogy to military service. I do not, at this point, feel that I ought to volunteer for service, but if drafted, I will serve, and I will not desert.

I love that analogy.

My service should be volunteer.

 

[mommamaree]

Was this really necessary? Knowing who she is and what she did? You know, she’s not a Catholic mom that represents any person on CAF at all, I am nearly 100% positive on that. People who truly trust God don’t murder their children. That is like mentioning a couple who had an NFP “failure” and decided to have an abortion instead of giving birth. Can you not see how offensive that is?

Hi 7armyrugrats,
I just wanted to chime in here and mention that even Andrea Yates was not always Andrea Yates. She did a horrible, unimaginable crime, that ended 5 lives and destroyed her own and the lives of others. However, she had been suffering from a terrible hormonal-induced mental illness called Postpartum Psychosis. It is an extreme, psychotic form of postpartum depression. From what I understand about her story, her husband was aware that she was unstable and did not get her help, but continued to leave her alone with the children day after day. Perhaps he couldn’t believe the reality of what was happening to his wife, after seeing her be a loving mother for years? I think Xantippe’s point is a fair one. If a woman has ever suffered from PPD, it is likely it could happen again after a future pregnancy, and there are other factors that contribute to the development of PPD. There are some excellent mothers who suffered through it once and got treatment and never want to go through that again. So they have to give up on their dream of a large family for the sake of the lives of the family she already has. It doesn’t matter how much a Catholic mother trusts God; if she is stricken with a psychotic mental illness that is outside of her control, she needs psychiatric help, not more prayer.

 

[PaulinVA]

That is not the context in which it was used. Pope Francis was clearly identifying that the homosexual in question needed to be living a Christian life. It does not apply AT ALL to how people, including you, have used it. It is perhaps one of the most unfortunate hijackings of a Pope’s message in history.

wdtprs.com/blog/2014/02/who-am-i-to-judge-thrown-in-your-face-fr-z-says-dont-let-them-get-away-with-it/

It’s amazing how two people can read the exact same thing and come to divergent conclusions. My analogy was using the Pope’s quote in context, just as Fr. Z mentioned.

It’s also the thrust of many posts here. If the couple is truly seeking the Truth in discerning serious reasons concerning avoiding pregnancy, the decision is theirs and it is not our place to second guess them.

 

[PaulinVA]

I don’t think we should fear being labeled providentialists. Living together as husband and wife, trusting in God’s providence, engaging in the marital act and not avoiding the fertile times - that IS the default. It is only IF the couple discern serious reason to avoid pregnancy that abstinence, complete or periodic, is a morally licit option to do so. So, since practicing NFP is the exception and NOT practicing NFP is the rule, wouldn’t the default look a whole lot like providentialism?

I think Providentialism misses the point of modern scientific knowledge. God does not act, normally, outside of the marital act. There are certain things that have to happen during the marital act to produce a baby. This is the biology God created. If you keep having relations, you will keep having babies, all things being equal. NFP works because God does not intervene normally.

If you practice Providentialism, and you have seven children in twelve years and can’t handle any more and have 15 -20 years of fertility ahead of you, then what are you to do? You switch from a Providentialist to a strict avoider?

God’s biology will keep giving you babies if you keep having relations throughout the cycle. He made it that way.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

A couple of relevant quotes (I had posted on another thread a while back, but thought they can be relevant here too, especially with regards to trusting in God and seeking His will):

“God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with
the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it” (1 Cor 10:13).

2367
Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.154 " "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. (I add: note how married couples are cooperating by transmitting life and educating, thus NFP is not necessary to become “in a certain sense, its interpreters”) NFP can certainly be part of it, but is not necessary to actively participate in being part of creation… and note that God is still the source of all life, it isn’t purely something up to us. Yes, He makes use of the Biology He created, but it is still not something completely up to us on our own.

2371
"Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man’s eternal destiny."161 (I had already posted this one)

From (Blessed almost Saint ) JPII’s Mass on the Mall in Washington:
“…parents will remind themselves that it is certainly less serious to deny their children certain comforts or material advantages than to deprive them of the presence of brothers and sisters, who could help them grow in humanity and to realize the beauty of life at all its ages and variety”

“Human life is precious because it is a gift of a God whose love is infinite; and when God gives life, it is forever. Life is also precious because it is the expression and the fruit of love. This is why life should spring up within the setting of marriage and why marriage and the parents’ love for one another should be marked by generosity in self-giving. The great danger for family life, in the midst of any society whose idols are pleasure, comfort, and independence, lies in the fact that people close their hearts and become selfish”

From an Address of Pope Pius XII to the Directors of the Associations for Large Families of Rome and of Italy, January 20, 1958

"But God also visits large families with His Providence, and parents, especially those who are poor, give clear testimony to this by resting all their trust in Him when human efforts are not enough. A trust that has a solid foundation and is not in vain! Providence – to put it in human words and ideas – is not a sum total of exceptional acts of divine pity; it is the ordinary result of harmonious activity on the part of the infinite wisdom, goodness and omnipotence of the Creator. God will never refuse a means of living to those He calls into being.
The Divine Master has explicitly taught that “life is worth more than food, and the body more than clothing” (cf. Matthew 6:25). If single incidents, whether small or great, seem to contradict this, it is a sign that man has placed some obstacle in the way of divine order, or else, in exceptional cases, that God has higher plans for good; but Providence is something real, something necessary since God is the Creator. "

I am posting this to address the comments on trusting in God’s Providence, etc… but couples that have to use NFP to avoid are also trusting in God, and can be at peace because they have discerned they clearly need to avoid. They also face trials. I have a friend that clearly needed to avoid, and was sad, she would have welcomed more children, and even mentioned she felt a little less Catholic because she would not have a large family. I reminded her that this was not true, God has a plan for each of us, and embracing His plan, whatever it is, and whether we end up with 0 or double digit children, is what we need to do and is what makes us better Catholics.

 

[Xantippe]

Andrea and Rusty Yates are an extreme example, but she does demonstrate that just “trusting God” with regard to family size will not keep you from biting off more than you can chew. The Yates did.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates

So did the Torodes (with NFP), to a less tragic extent, and so did my mom (fortunately, only our relationship was seriously harmed, and only for the next 2+ two decades, but still a substantial loss). My cousin’s ex-wife the Protestant homeschooler of a large family who forgot to teach a few of her kids to read is another example. It is possible to overestimate one’s abilities to cope, and people do it all the time. Just “trusting God” will not guarantee a happy, holy or functional family.

 

[Rau]

If you practice Providentialism, and you have seven children in twelve years and can’t handle any more and have 15 -20 years of fertility ahead of you, then what are you to do? You switch from a Providentialist to a strict avoider?

God’s biology will keep giving you babies if you keep having relations throughout the cycle. He made it that way.

The attitude that couples have to providentialism, and to use of NFP, are almost certainly influenced significantly by the very simple factor of how readily they become pregnant, and how enthusiastic (how capable…etc.) they are about parenting a large brood.

Great diversity of opinion on this subject is to be expected.

 

[Xantippe]

PaulinVA,

I think part of the seductiveness of Providentialism is that to this day, human reproduction does have a large element of chance and uncertainty in it that may seem to take it outside the normal realm of cause and effect. So, if we go outside on a rainy day with no umbrella, we will get wet, and if we spend all our money, we’ll have no money, but if we have sex on a particular day, the chances are not particularly high that we will have a baby.

I think that we have to class human reproduction along with other things with likely probabilities, but no guarantees. For instance, if we enter the lottery, there is a chance of winning, or if we apply for a job, there is a chance of getting the job, but no guarantees in either case. Cause and effect still apply, but without a high degree of certainty.

7armyrugrats,

On the subject of education, my husband mentions that we owe the world and our neighbors and God, too, the development of our children’s talents. There is, after all, the parable of the talents, which suggests that we have a responsibility to God to make the most of what we are given. If we have a child who could grow up to cure cancer or diabetes or compose a new mathematical proof (and I feel it’s not unreasonable to think that one of my kids might be able do one of those things or something similar), don’t we have some responsibilities to help them develop?

 

[Rau]

Trust God that he will help you to choose well, to make good and well-principled decisions. Relying on God to make all well when you fail to plan or fail to act wisely- when you roll the dice rather than seek out good outcomes, sounds less than meritorious.

 

[PaulinVA]

PaulinVA,

I think part of the seductiveness of Providentialism is that to this day, human reproduction does have a large element of chance and uncertainty in it that may seem to take it outside the normal realm of cause and effect. So, if we go outside on a rainy day with no umbrella, we will get wet, and if we spend all our money, we’ll have no money, but if we have sex on a particular day, the chances are not particularly high that we will have a baby.

I think that we have to class human reproduction along with other things with likely probabilities, but no guarantees. For instance, if we enter the lottery, there is a chance of winning, or if we apply for a job, there is a chance of getting the job, but no guarantees in either case. Cause and effect still apply, but without a high degree of certainty.

Unprotected intercourse throughout the cycle results in 85 pregnancies out of a hundred women per year. That is as sure thing as you can get. I would certainly take those odds in the lottery!

 

[Bookcat]

I am posting this to address the comments on trusting in God’s Providence, etc… but couples that have to use NFP to avoid are also trusting in God, and can be at peace because they have discerned they clearly need to avoid. They also face trials. I have a friend that clearly needed to avoid, and was sad, she would have welcomed more children, and even mentioned she felt a little less Catholic because she would not have a large family. I reminded her that this was not true, God has a plan for each of us, and embracing His plan, whatever it is, and whether we end up with 0 or double digit children, is what we need to do and is what makes us better Catholics.

Except I would add that it is not so much that God has some “pre-written plan” for one - (some approach things as if that were the case) as if he was foreseeing all -and one just takes ones part on the stage and reads ones lines…He is* outside *of time. He not so much “foresees” -as “sees” – all of time is before him - all our decisions etc are all freshly before him. He sees what is for us past and present and future - all as present. Our choices - say for serious reasons to avoid - are all part of things.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

PaulinVA,
7armyrugrats,

On the subject of education, my husband mentions that we owe the world and our neighbors and God, too, the development of our children’s talents. There is, after all, the parable of the talents, which suggests that we have a responsibility to God to make the most of what we are given. If we have a child who could grow up to cure cancer or diabetes or compose a new mathematical proof (and I feel it’s not unreasonable to think that one of my kids might be able do one of those things or something similar), don’t we have some responsibilities to help them develop?

And we owe it to the world to accept the children God wants us to accept (which means being open to children, and only avoiding when one has discerned one should because of just etc reasons to do so). What if that child that was going to cure cancer was supposed to be born to a 38 year old mom who decided that, although she had no other reason to avoid, she did not want to be pregnant past 35? A child born to a family doing their best to educate their children has a better chance of growing up and curing cancer than a child that was never given a chance to be born. God gives us free will, so we cannot assume that if His will included x more children for us, that they will be born regardless if we put obstacles to receiving them.

Trust God that he will help you to choose well, to make good and well-principled decisions. Relying on God to make all well when you fail to plan or fail to act wisely- when you roll the dice rather than seek out good outcomes, sounds less than meritorious.

Choosing to not avoid because you have not discerned you need to do so is a good and well-principled decision. It does take planning and is not unwise. Trusting in God that He will help you with what you have discerned is His will for you is not unwise either, it is what we should be doing. That is very different from relying on God to deal with the aftermath of doing whatever you want.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Except I would add that it is not so much that God has some “pre-written plan” for one - (some approach things as if that were the case) as if he was foreseeing all -and one just takes ones part on the stage and reads ones lines…He is* outside *of time. He not so much “foresees” -as “sees” – all of time is before him - all our decisions etc are all freshly before him. He sees what is for us past and present and future - all as present. Our choices - say for serious reasons to avoid - are all part of things.

Yes, which is why I said we need to seek His will, as He gave us free will, which means we are able to make whatever choices we want to, good or bad. We need to seek the Truth, find out what is good (which a lot is already written in our hearts with natural law), and form our consciences correctly, to then be able to make informed decisions of what is right and wrong. There is no time for God, but it does not mean He does not have a plan for each one of us.

 

[Rau]

And we owe it to the world to accept the children God wants us to accept (which means being open to children, and only avoiding when one has discerned one should because of just etc reasons to do so). What if that child that was going to cure cancer was supposed to be born to a 38 year old mom who decided that, although she had no other reason to avoid, she did not want to be pregnant past 35?

Very true. Of course, we can never know the “what might have beens”. I don’t think they are a solid basis for choosing to have (or not avoid) a child. We can only try and make good choices with what we (think we ) know.

 

[Bookcat]

On the subject of education, my husband mentions that we owe the world and our neighbors and God, too, the development of our children’s talents. There is, after all, the parable of the talents, which suggests that we have a responsibility to God to make the most of what we are given. If we have a child who could grow up to cure cancer or diabetes or compose a new mathematical proof (and I feel it’s not unreasonable to think that one of my kids might be able do one of those things or something similar), don’t we have some responsibilities to help them develop?

Yes …and it may the youngest of a large family- like St. Catherine of Sienna (Doctor of the Church) who does most for the world…who was number 25!

hee hee…

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Very true. Of course, we can never know the “what might have beens”. I don’t think they are a solid basis for choosing to have a child. We can only try and make good choices with what we (think we ) know.

Agreed, more reason to form our conscience correctly and try to do what is best/discern what God wants of us. We know God wants us all to be saints, so putting our efforts into doing what is best is a pretty good way to try to follow His will. The absence of good reasons to avoid is a good basis for a loving married couple to welcome another child.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, which is why I said we need to seek His will, as He gave us free will, which means we are able to make whatever choices we want to, good or bad. We need to seek the Truth, find out what is good (which a lot is already written in our hearts with natural law), and form our consciences correctly, to then be able to make informed decisions of what is right and wrong. There is no time for God, but it does not mean He does not have a plan for each one of us.

Yes - but not a “pre-written plan” the way many can tend to think (as I noted above).

 

[Bookcat]

And we owe it to the world to accept the children God wants us to accept (which means being open to children, and only avoiding when one has discerned one should because of just etc reasons to do so). What if that child that was going to cure cancer was supposed to be born to a 38 year old mom who decided that, although she had no other reason to avoid, she did not want to be pregnant past 35? A child born to a family doing their best to educate their children has a better chance of growing up and curing cancer than a child that was never given a chance to be born. God gives us free will, so we cannot assume that if His will included x more children for us, that they will be born regardless if we put obstacles to receiving them.

.

Pope Benedict mother was 43 when he was born (his father too was in his 40’s).

Thanks be to God!