Maternal Mortality rate and the morality of contraception

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Kendy:
I am not saying that we should write off anyone. I am saying individuals often have tough decisions to make given certain situations that are beyond their control. There is simply not enough people putting enough resources into making sure that poor women can have one more child.
:banghead: ** **
That is my point, we have too few people/resources to afford wasting what little there is on birth control!

It’s not about making sure poor people can have another child.
It’s about making life improvements for the poor, which birth control and sterilization does not provide.
 
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svoboda:
Please re-read the passage:

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3 Then Judah said to Onan, “Unite with your brother’s widow, in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your brother’s line.”
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Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother’s widow, **he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. ** 10
What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.

What did he do that greatly offended the Lord? He wasted his seed on the ground to avoid contributing offspring for his brother.

I suppose you could interpret it and say that the Lord was offended by the fact that he wasted his seed on the ground, but that’s reading into it. The way it’s written suggests nothing of the kind. Of course it’s possible, but it’s hardly definite, and all we know is that the Lord was offended by his spilling his seed on the ground to avoid contributing offspring for his brother.

Presumably Genesis and Ruth were written by different people at different times. Look at the New Testament, there Jesus stops people from stoning a woman. In Deutoronomy stoning was a common punishment for sexual offenses.

Can you use passages from the New Testament to say that people were not stoned for adultery in the Old Testament even though it clearly says they were?

You can’t use passages from Ruth to contradict what’s clearly written in Genesis.

This is not what it says in the passage itself, you have to spin the passages a lot to get them to mean that.

It says that Onan wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the LORD

God made many commandments in the Old Testament, if he wanted to explicitly forbid contraception he would have done it. Contraception was around back then, especially in Egypt where Moses and the Israelis lived before the Exodus.
** THE SIN OF ONAN REVISITED **
 
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buffalo:
Because artificial contraception is against natural and Divine law.
If one isn’t Catholic or Christian, why should this apply? If so, what aspects of non-Christian faiths apply to you? Do you make Hajj to Mecca at least once during yr life? Why not? Can’t say because you are Christian because you expect non-Christians to follow yr interpretation of yr faith. Why don’t you cremate the bodies of yr dead relatives by the Ganges as do good Hindus?

You believe artifical birth control is morally wrong. Pls explain how it is wrong for people who do not follow yr interpretation of yr faith?

Sorry, don’t get why non-Christian African women should refuse condoms to protect themselves from the HIV virus because someone says it is against his interpretation of his religion.
 
Moral relativism is making excuses for a practice that enables the epidemic spread of HIV/AIDS and unnecessary deaths of thousands upon thousands of people.

With 1.1 billion + followers, with a significant number of those followers in second and third world countries, it is socially and morally irresponsible for the Church to advocate AGAINST contraception.
 
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MikeinSD:
If one isn’t Catholic or Christian, why should this apply?
Is there such a thing as Objective Moral Truth? If yes, it should objectively apply. If no, you’re entirely correct and everything is relative - there is no right or wrong for anyone, and everything is without meaning. If this is the case, then Neitzsche is right and God is dead.
If so, what aspects of non-Christian faiths apply to you? Do you make Hajj to Mecca at least once during yr life? Why not?
The aspects which apply are those which can be determined to be objectively true. A Hajj cannot be so determined, but the intentional distortion of the procreative act being against natural law can be.
Can’t say because you are Christian because you expect non-Christians to follow yr interpretation of yr faith. Why don’t you cremate the bodies of yr dead relatives by the Ganges as do good Hindus?
  1. I didn’t say that.
  2. We can cremate dead bodies, though the location cannot be objectively shown to be required under natural law.
You believe artificial birth control is morally wrong. Pls explain how it is wrong for people who do not follow yr interpretation of yr faith?
It is in violation of the natural law. Have you ever read Aquinas on the natural law? It might help you to understand the argument.
Sorry, don’t get why non-Christian African women should refuse condoms to protect themselves from the HIV virus because someone says it is against his interpretation of his religion.
  1. It’s about the obligations of a Catholic organization preaching a Catholic message, not about what non-Christians may or may not do. You are confusing the argument. A Catholic organization should not be obligated to assist others in committing actions which She regards as sinful. That’s just silly.
  2. Condoms don’t stop the spread of HIV/AIDS - abstinence does. Condoms may help minimize transmission, but it will be transmitted even with their use. It’s the root behavior that needs to change, not the continued practice of it. If you want to stop the spread and not just minimize it, abstinence and monogamy are required. Hence, the Church’s position is superior to what you have put forth.
God Bless,
RyanL
 
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ReformedCatholic:
With 1.1 billion + followers, with a significant number of those followers in second and third world countries, it is socially and morally irresponsible for the Church to advocate AGAINST contraception.
Non sequitor.

You: It is irresponsible to advocate against contraception because the Church is big.

How does this make sense?

If artificial contraception is inherently bad, why is it irresponsible to tell people not to do it?

If artificial contraception is inherently good, why the command to “be fruitful and multiply”, the repeated Biblical teaching that “children are a blessing”, and the sin of Onan punishable by death? Did you read my post above regarding the divorce of the unitive and creative aspects of the marital union? Is there any theological support for your position?

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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MikeinSD:
ISorry, don’t get why non-Christian African women should refuse condoms to protect themselves from the HIV virus because someone says it is against his interpretation of his religion.
Second thought…

Please explain to me, using your logic, why non-Christian Africans HIV/AIDS positive women shouldn’t be killed by non-Christian Africans to prevent the spread of the virus, and why the Church should support this practice. It would be far more efficient and effective than condoms, which people may or may not use…

I think when you can answer this you can answer your own question.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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MikeinSD:
If one isn’t Catholic or Christian, why should this apply? If so, what aspects of non-Christian faiths apply to you? Do you make Hajj to Mecca at least once during yr life? Why not? Can’t say because you are Christian because you expect non-Christians to follow yr interpretation of yr faith. Why don’t you cremate the bodies of yr dead relatives by the Ganges as do good Hindus?

You believe artifical birth control is morally wrong. Pls explain how it is wrong for people who do not follow yr interpretation of yr faith?

Sorry, don’t get why non-Christian African women should refuse condoms to protect themselves from the HIV virus because someone says it is against his interpretation of his religion.
Natural law applies to everyone. Catholic law is built upon natural law. Divine law comes from God whether you believe in Him or not.
 
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MikeinSD:
If one isn’t Catholic or Christian, why should this apply? If so, what aspects of non-Christian faiths apply to you? Do you make Hajj to Mecca at least once during yr life? Why not? Can’t say because you are Christian because you expect non-Christians to follow yr interpretation of yr faith. Why don’t you cremate the bodies of yr dead relatives by the Ganges as do good Hindus?

You believe artifical birth control is morally wrong. Pls explain how it is wrong for people who do not follow yr interpretation of yr faith?

Sorry, don’t get why non-Christian African women should refuse condoms to protect themselves from the HIV virus because someone says it is against his interpretation of his religion.
Many religions are based on foundational truths that many have in common. Going from there one has to recognize some religions have more truth than others. (they cannot all be right).

Every religion ( except Catholicism) has been founded by a man and has errors. Catholicism was founded by God through His Son and free from error. In addition we have been given Revelation.

This does not come down to me or you interpreting. It comes down to whether we choose to follow what has been revealed.

There is a guaranteed way to protect yourself from sexually transmitted HIV, it is absinence, a sacrifice to be sure, but many people make more sacrifices than that daily in order to live.
 
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RyanL:
Non sequitor.

You: It is irresponsible to advocate against contraception because the Church is big.

How does this make sense?

You missed the point.

If artificial contraception is inherently bad, why is it irresponsible to tell people not to do it?

It is not inherently bad, unless you are still living in the Dark Ages.

If artificial contraception is inherently good, why the command to “be fruitful and multiply”, the repeated Biblical teaching that “children are a blessing”, and the sin of Onan punishable by death? Did you read my post above regarding the divorce of the unitive and creative aspects of the marital union? Is there any theological support for your position?

God Bless,
RyanL
Children certainly are a blessing, and contraception does not hurt them. Maybe the “be fruitful and multiply” should be put into context. The sin of Onan… that must be the best argument for this because that’s what seems to be quoted the most. Being that’s Old Testament which is no longer applicable to me as a Christian, because there is a New Testament, maybe the position is outdated.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Being that’s Old Testament which is no longer applicable to me as a Christian, because there is a New Testament, maybe the position is outdated.
Not. :tsktsk: Jesus came to fulfill the law. Only the ceremonial aspects are no longer binding.
 
Being that’s Old Testament which is no longer applicable to me as a Christian, because there is a New Testament, maybe the position is outdated
Whoa! Where is this found in Church teachings? Christ is the fulfillment of the OT not the annihilation of it. Several of our teachings come from the OT. We are bound to the OT where the Church says we are. If you notice, the Church quite often quotes the OT. Also, we have an OT reading every Sunday. Are you simply saying the Church has ditched the OT?
 
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buffalo:
Not. :tsktsk: Jesus came to fulfill the law. Only the ceremonial aspects are no longer binding.
For you maybe. I’ll stick to what Jesus taught.
 
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buffalo:
Contraceptives do kill unborn babies.
Are you talking about the sperm cells? Or the ovum? A baby does not make until the two shall meet. Contraception prevents that from happening. Hence, no baby and no killing. How does one kill what does not yet exist?
 
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bear06:
Whoa! Where is this found in Church teachings? Christ is the fulfillment of the OT not the annihilation of it. Several of our teachings come from the OT. We are bound to the OT where the Church says we are. If you notice, the Church quite often quotes the OT. Also, we have an OT reading every Sunday. Are you simply saying the Church has ditched the OT?
I’m not saying they have ditched it, but maybe they should. I believe the emphasis should be on Christ’s message and teachings, e.g., “love God above all else…” and “love others as I have loved you…” and so forth.

I don’t buy into the “angry God” type depiction the OT provides and therefore I see it as flawed. I don’t know why the Church still uses it as a source of authority except that it may support their teaching on things like contraception.

Also, the concept as God as the “heavy” and talk of fire and brimstone and hell has always filled the pews. You need the OT for that. I also have a problem with the idea of Original Sin which comes from there. I have never seen a baby and thought “you vile sinner!” LOL
 
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RyanL:
Second thought…

Please explain to me, using your logic, why non-Christian Africans HIV/AIDS positive women shouldn’t be killed by non-Christian Africans to prevent the spread of the virus, and why the Church should support this practice. It would be far more efficient and effective than condoms, which people may or may not use…

I think when you can answer this you can answer your own question.

God Bless,
RyanL
Actually that is pretty easy to answer. HIV is spreading rapidly because men are not using condoms and women cannot refuse to have sex with men in many rural African communities. So in a sense, men are killing women with this virus. Women with the virus hide it’s effects as long as possible because having “slims” results in the community shunning them and their children. And men continue to have unprotected sex with sick women. The disease goes on and on. Killing men and women and leaving children to starve.

Secondly, comparing birth control to mass murder is a real reach. Most American couples use birth control yet manage to restrain their murderous impulses

Obviously, the Catholic church should teach what the church believes as truth.

Whether a particular Catholic teaching – no birth control – obligates non-believers is moot . All missonary religions have beliefs that they say are obligatory for all humans. In fact, only the believers of a particular faith must follow it’s teachings. Catholics do not pray toward Mecca five times a day (one of the pillars of Islam). Perhaps because Catholics are not Muslims.

Also, preaching the choir might be a little more effective. Relatively few Catholics do no use birth control throughout their lives. Perhaps more efforts to convince Catholics to follow Catholic teachings might be more productive than asking non-believers to do so.
 
ReformedCatholic said:
I’m not saying they have ditched it, but maybe they should. I believe the emphasis should be on Christ’s message and teachings, e.g., “love God above all else…” and “love others as I have loved you…” and so forth.
Unfortunately, this is not the sum total of Christ’s teachings.
I don’t buy into the “angry God” type depiction the OT provides and therefore I see it as flawed. I don’t know why the Church still uses it as a source of authority except that it may support their teaching on things like contraception.
Because of it’s continuity.
Also, the concept as God as the “heavy” and talk of fire and brimstone and hell has always filled the pews. You need the OT for that. I also have a problem with the idea of Original Sin which comes from there. I have never seen a baby and thought “you vile sinner!”
When was the last time you heard a fire and brimstone sermon? I have to drive miles for one of those. Original sin? Wow, this is a rejection of the basic.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
For you maybe. I’ll stick to what Jesus taught.
Yes, let’s look at what Jesus taught:
Matthew 5:17
Jesus: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
Luke 16:17
Jesus: "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. "

Making up your own Gospel, are you? Dispensing us from the 10 commandments - it’s OT, baby! Angry God - that’s OT, too! It conflicts with what I want to believe, so I simply don’t believe it! Oh, and don’t pay any attention to Jesus whe He says the following:
Matthew 10:34
Jesus: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."
Luke 22:36
Jesus: “he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."
Revelation 3:16
Jesus: “So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.”

Oh, and especially don’t pay attention to this (because it sounds like He might be angry):

Matthew 25:41
Jesus: “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels’…And these will go away into everlasting punishment."

Yup - pretty “anything goes”.

Are you sure Christianity is the religion for you? You don’t seem to believe Jesus or the Bible very much…

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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