Not sure I get your point here – I think we’ve established Christ knows everyone and that He will not lose any the Father has given Him. This does not mean they won’t walk away from Him.
What about John 10? And then parallel it with the John 6 verses already mentioned about Jesus not losing any who has been given to Him by the Father.
John 10:27-29
"My sheephear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”
So you’re saying the only exception to this is ourselves? No one can take away our salvation in Christ except for us?
If I came across as saying that a) you work your way into heaven or b) entrance is based on keeping the commandments as in the old covenant, I apologize – that is not my intent. Christ’s death on the cross changed that as Paul makes clear in Romans.
But if we are justified by faith and our works…they unless we do works we can’t enter into heaven. So we are working our way into heaven by definition. What am I missing if you’re saying you don’t believe we work our way into heaven, but then say we are saved by faith and works?
Mortal sins are what cause catholics to fall from a state of grace. What are most of those moral sins based on?..the Old Testament Law, specifically the 10 commandments.
So the church is teaching that we enter into the kingdom of heaven by keeping the commandments, cause if we don’t then we fall from a state of grace and loose our place in heaven unless we, repent, take communion, etc…
Faith alone will not get you into heaven, works do play a part. This is where we’ll probably part company and not come to agreement but that’s ok. My intent Stouts is to try to make clear how Catholics see salvation, justification and the part works play – that’s it, no more. I’m not trying to get you to accept it, my aim is to try to make it somewhat clear.
I’m here to learn…not persuade as well. So again I thank you for your time.
Regarding justification: James 2:24 - the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.” Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).
Actually the Bible does say that we are justified by faith alone. The phrase faith alone doesn’t exist, except for the James 2 verse given…that is true. But I gave you the Romans 3:28 verse, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” Faith without works…faith alone. Paul continues to talk about it in Romans 4 as you’ve brought up.
In Reform theology James 2 is interpreted based on Romans 4, because both Paul and James are both quoting Gen. 15:6. Paul also quotes it again in Galatians.
Lets look at Romans 4.
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about,
but not before God.
3For what does the Scripture say?
"ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4Now to the one who works, his wage is
not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? **Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; **
The covenant of circumcision is paralleled with baptism all the time through Paul’s writings. Here Paul tells us that Abraham was credited as righteous (Justified or made right before God), while he was still uncircumcised. But that’s another topic.
Paul is nailing away that Abram was made righteous before God because of his belief…his faith apart from his works. If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God (vs2). Our works don’t justify us before God. The justification that James is talking about in chapter 2 is the justification works brings to our faith. A true and real faith will have works. Our works justify our faith. Matthew 7:17-18 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” And those who don’t bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
So again, James it talking about two types of faiths, ascentia and fiducia. Ascentia is the mental ascent, the mental acknowledgment of something’s existence. The demons acknowledge and believe that God exists. Fiducia is more than mental acknowledgment. It involves a trust in something, a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something.
Those who have the faith described in greek as fiducia, will bear good fruit, because they have a saving faith.
I hope that was clear and how Romans 4 and James 2 or interpreted in light both quoting Gen. 15:6
I’ll stop here for now to help keep the discusion focus and to not take up to much time reading and responding. I’ll read through the scripture you posted below and will comment on your other posts when I find more time.
Blessings!
“OUR WORKS of obedience as Christians don’t earn our initial justification. How could they, since such deeds follow and flow from it? The Council of Trent says as much when it observes that “we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification” (Session Six, Chapter VIII).