Matt 11:11 - John the Baptist vs Mary

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I was listening to a Catholic Q&A show the other day and someone asked about Jesus’ statement about John the Baptist. I’ve been doing a lot of questioning about my Catholic faith lately and this made me think about the Church’s beliefs about Mary.

In this verse Jesus says that there is no one greater than John the Baptist among those born of women - which includes everyone except Adam and Eve - there is no one greater than John the Baptist. Now I understand that the main thrust is to compare those born under the old covenant to those who are now part of the Kingdom of God but there is no way I can honestly read this verse and not have John the Baptist be greater than Mary.

Help!!!
 
“…born of woman…” implys original sin. Mary, although She was born of woman, was also born The Immaculate Conception - without original sin. She was concevied and born without the stain of sin.

Mary, upon being informed by Gabriel the Archangel, that Her relative Elizabeth was with child went up to Elizabeth and remained until John was born. However, at the greeting, when the two babes lept in the womb upon meeting from within their respective wombs, that moment has been taught as the time when John the Baptist was himself freed from original sin. So John the Baptist was conceived with original sin, but he was born without it, thus being “…greater than anyone born of woman…”

Secondly, and although I have not heard this taught before, I like to imagine that at the time of his birth, John the Baptist was born “into” the hands of Mary, who may have been acting as midwife to Elizabeth, such that, he was literally born into the living Ark of the New Covenant - Mary - and thus purified and sanctified completely for his mission to “…prepare ye the way for the Lord…”. This likewise would make him, “…greater than anyone born of woman…”
 
Take a good look at the passage from the RSV-2CE. Read it slowly…

9 Why then did you go out? To see a prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet.
10 This is he of whom it is written, “Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.”
11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women, there has arisen no on greather than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greather than he.
12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom ofheaven has suffered violence, and men of violence take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John; and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.It does indeed say “no one greater than John the Baptist” but it does not say “there is no one greater.” It says “there has arisen no one greater.” John is the greatest to have arisen among those born of women. All men are born of women but it is only the prophets who arise. Jesus reference to John the Baptist’s greatness is not in the context of all of humanity. John’s greatness is in the context of the prophets. John is not the greatest human, he is the great prophet. Christ confirms his words when he says that John is “Elijiaih who is to come” (future tense).

The NAB renders verse 11 as, “…among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist.” The “there has been” references back to the word “Prophet” in verse 9.

It also says that he who is the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist. Whadayagunnado? 🤷

Let me offer you this, for what it’s worth…

I spent about an hour conversing with two Jehovah’s Witnesses a few weeks ago. They are very good at what they do. For every Catholic belief and corresponding Biblical proof I put forth, they countered with a well thought out alternative intepretation, lucid arguments against my position and ample scriptural evidence to back it up. I consider myself strong in the faith but I was shaken. Like I said, they are good at what they do.

I picked up a Bible that evening and just opened it up and started reading. God quickly led me to John 6 and the bread of life discourse and a great calm came over me. I realized that no matter what they said, Jesus is still present in the Eucharist and that will never change. I can be shaken to my core but the Eucharist is something which stands like a fortress in front of anyone who tries to take my love for the Church which Christ extablished away from me.

-Tim-
 
garysibio said:
I was listening to a Catholic Q&A show the other day and someone asked about Jesus’ statement about John the Baptist. I’ve been doing a lot of questioning about my Catholic faith lately and this made me think about the Church’s beliefs about Mary.

In this verse Jesus says that there is no one greater than John the Baptist among those born of women - which includes everyone except Adam and Eve - there is no one greater than John the Baptist. Now I understand that the main thrust is to compare those born under the old covenant to those who are now part of the Kingdom of God but there is no way I can honestly read this verse and not have John the Baptist be greater than Mary.

Help!!!
Click to expand...
When we look at scripture, we are to look at the whole context, not just one verse.
Matt 11
9Then why did you go out? To see a prophet? 7 Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet.
10 This is the one about whom it is written: ‘Behold, I am sending my messenger ahead of you; he will prepare your way before you.’
11 Amen, I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible in the commentary refers to the CCC 523.

CCC 523 St. John the Baptist is the Lord’s immediate precursor or forerunner, sent to prepare his way. “Prophet of the Most High”, John surpasses all the prophets, of whom he is the last. He inaugurates the Gospel, already from his mother’s womb welcomes the coming of Christ, and rejoices in being “the friend of the bridegroom”, whom he points out as “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”. Going before Jesus “in the spirit and power of Elijah”, John bears witness to Christ in his preaching, by his Baptism of conversion, and through his martyrdom.
 
Julian0404 said:
“…born of woman…” implys original sin. Mary, although She was born of woman, was also born The Immaculate Conception - without original sin. She was concevied and born without the stain of sin.

Mary, upon being informed by Gabriel the Archangel, that Her relative Elizabeth was with child went up to Elizabeth and remained until John was born. However, at the greeting, when the two babes lept in the womb upon meeting from within their respective wombs, that moment has been taught as the time when John the Baptist was himself freed from original sin. So John the Baptist was conceived with original sin, but he was born without it, thus being “…greater than anyone born of woman…”

Secondly, and although I have not heard this taught before, I like to imagine that at the time of his birth, John the Baptist was born “into” the hands of Mary, who may have been acting as midwife to Elizabeth, such that, he was literally born into the living Ark of the New Covenant - Mary - and thus purified and sanctified completely for his mission to “…prepare ye the way for the Lord…”. This likewise would make him, “…greater than anyone born of woman…”
Click to expand...
Nothing about “born of woman” allows for exempting Mary. It has nothing to do at all with original sin. Mary was born of woman.
 
garysibio said:
I was listening to a Catholic Q&A show the other day and someone asked about Jesus’ statement about John the Baptist. I’ve been doing a lot of questioning about my Catholic faith lately and this made me think about the Church’s beliefs about Mary.

In this verse Jesus says that there is no one greater than John the Baptist among those born of women - which includes everyone except Adam and Eve - there is no one greater than John the Baptist. Now I understand that the main thrust is to compare those born under the old covenant to those who are now part of the Kingdom of God but there is no way I can honestly read this verse and not have John the Baptist be greater than Mary.

Help!!!
Click to expand...
This one is easy…

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 11:11[/BIBLEDRB]

Even the least in the Kingdom is greater than John. Mary not only belongs to the Kingdom–she’s the Queen!
garysibio said:
Nothing about “born of woman” allows for exempting Mary. It has nothing to do at all with original sin. Mary was born of woman.
Click to expand...
So was Jesus (Gal. 4:45). Does that mean John is greater than Jesus? Nope. Jesus not only belongs to the Kingdom, He is the King… and we know who the Queen is.
 
garysibio said:
Nothing about “born of woman” allows for exempting Mary. It has nothing to do at all with original sin. Mary was born of woman.
Click to expand...
So was Jesus (Gal. 4:45). Does that mean John is greater than Jesus? Nope. Jesus not only belongs to the Kingdom, He is the King… and we know who the Queen is.
 
typo in the above post. Should be Gal 4:4-5 (note the hyphen.)

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 4:4-5[/BIBLEDRB]
 
Consistent with the cultural norms of the time, Jesus was speaking only of men. Remember that, in the feeding of the 4,000 and the 5,000 (Matthew 15:38, Mark 6:44, Luke 9:14, John 6:10), the number given was either given as “men” or “not counting women and children”. Women and children were not counted in those days.
 
Julian0404;7460461:
However, at the greeting, when the two babes lept in the womb upon meeting from within their respective wombs, that moment has been taught as the time when John the Baptist was himself freed from original sin. So John the Baptist was conceived with original sin, but he was born without it, thus being “…greater than anyone born of woman…”
Click to expand...
I had never heard this before. Thanks for sharing. can you give some reference, or catholic teaching, where i can learn more?
 
Christ was speaking that John was the greatest prophet. Ironically, if Saint John the Baptist really was the greatest, even greater than Mary as some silly protestants say, then Christ contradicted Himself because He said that He who is humble in his heart is greater than Saint John: Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is the lesser in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. That should settle all this stupid empty talk.

Oh, and when I say stupid empty talk, I wasn’t referring to the OP. You’re having doubts in the faith and you need help in realizing it.🙂 I was only referring to those who say this blasphemy that John is greater than Mary as church teaching:mad:.
 
It’s a matter of the Old Covenant and the New. As philipmarie and others have already shown, the Lord follows His statement about His cousin John with the statement that the least in the Kingdom (of the New Covenant) is greater than John. Mary is part of that New Covenant, and the greatest member of this New Covenant. She is the very image of the Church (per Rev 12:1-3) and the Ark of the New Covenant itself (per Luke 1:39-56 compared to 2 Sam 6:2-11). Jesus is not saying that John is greater than Mary or any other NT saint, but that he is the greatest and most sinless saint of the Old Covenant -the last prophet of the Old Covenant, and their culmination: the New Elijiah.
 
So everyone here is telling me that John the Baptist didn’t make it into the Kingdom of God. Then why do we call him 'Saint" and why do we celebrate feast days?

The passage in question says of those born of woman which means everyone but Adam and Eve, John the Baptist was the greatest. Jesus was not limiting Himself to prophets. Yes, He is comparing the Old and New Covenants, but if John the Baptist was not part of the Kingdom of God by this point, neither was Mary.

I’m sorry but a lot of the responses here remind me of the picky Scripture-twisting we often accuse Evangelical apologists of doing.
 
garysibio said:
So everyone here is telling me that John the Baptist didn’t make it into the Kingdom of God.
Click to expand...
Nobody said that.

The gates of the Kingdom of God were closed before Calvary and Jesus made the statement before Calvary. Obviously John entered the Kingdom at the time that the rest of the OT saints did.

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 27:50-53[/BIBLEDRB]

Compare with Mary, who being immaculately conceived, was already in the Kingdom when Jesus made the statement.

Be not afraid, my friend.
 
garysibio said:
So everyone here is telling me that John the Baptist didn’t make it into the Kingdom of God. Then why do we call him 'Saint" and why do we celebrate feast days?

The passage in question says of those born of woman which means everyone but Adam and Eve, John the Baptist was the greatest. Jesus was not limiting Himself to prophets. Yes, He is comparing the Old and New Covenants, but if John the Baptist was not part of the Kingdom of God by this point, neither was Mary.

I’m sorry but a lot of the responses here remind me of the picky Scripture-twisting we often accuse Evangelical apologists of doing.
Click to expand...
Where do you see that one is denying that John the Baptist is a member of the Kingdom of God? What is being said is that the Lord’s words you are questioning must be read in the context of John’s being the last of the Old Testament prophets and the fulfillment of the Prophet Elijah heralding the First Advent of the Lord. Keep in mind that the Kingdom of God wasn’t fully inaugurated until the death and resurrection of the Lord; this came after John’s death. John, like all the Saints of the Old Covenant were awaiting the Lord’s redemption wherein He breaks the bonds of death.
 
FCEGM said:
Where do you see that one is denying that John the Baptist is a member of the Kingdom of God? What is being said is that the Lord’s words you are questioning must be read in the context of John’s being the last of the Old Testament prophets and the fulfillment of the Prophet Elijah heralding the First Advent of the Lord. Keep in mind that the Kingdom of God wasn’t fully inaugurated until the death and resurrection of the Lord; this came after John’s death. John, like all the Saints of the Old Covenant were awaiting the Lord’s redemption wherein He breaks the bonds of death.
Click to expand...
When you compare John the Baptist to those who are least in the Kingdom of God, you are implying that John the Baptist was not part of the Kingdom of God. Otherwise it makes no sense.
 
Cat_Herder said:
Nobody said that.

The gates of the Kingdom of God were closed before Calvary and Jesus made the statement before Calvary. Obviously John entered the Kingdom at the time that the rest of the OT saints did.

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 27:50-53[/BIBLEDRB]

Compare with Mary, who being immaculately conceived, was already in the Kingdom when Jesus made the statement.

Be not afraid, my friend.
Click to expand...
If Mary is greater than John the Baptist, then Jesus made a false statement.
 
garysibio said:
If Mary is greater than John the Baptist, then Jesus made a false statement.
Click to expand...
Not if Mary was already redeemed at the time Jesus made the statement.

If you do not believe that Mary was so redeemed, you are denying an article of the Faith and you must then remove “Catholic” from your religion profile.
 
garysibio said:
When you compare John the Baptist to those who are least in the Kingdom of God, you are implying that John the Baptist was not part of the Kingdom of God. Otherwise it makes no sense.
Click to expand...
OTC, it is you who are reading the Lord’s words both as an implication that John the Baptist was greater than Mary and that he at the same time wasn’t/isn’t a part of the Kingdom of God. John was/is as much a member of the Kingdom of God as all the prophets of God who went before him - and he, as the Lord proclaims was the greatest of them. And he, like them, becomes a member of the Kingdom at its full establishment in the death and resurrection of the Lord.
 
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