Matt Fradd on Andrew Cuomo and Excommunication

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No. You are saying anyone who isn’t Catholic goes to hell. That is not a teaching of the Church and is exactly what Jesus didn’t say

‘“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”

“Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”’ -Luke 9:49-50
 
GospelOfMatthew said:
That is not a teaching of the Church
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Is it a teaching of the Catholic Church that:
“Declaratio quod subesse Romano Pontifici est omni humanae creaturae de necessitate salutis”;?
Or has this teaching been changed?
 
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goout said:
If a Catholic championing policies that enable the deaths of millions of people does not rise to the level, where do you propose that level is ?
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I don’t know, but I seem to recall that Sen. Edward Kennedy was given a Catholic funeral and during his lifetime in the Senate he publicly and openly favored abortion rights for women.
 
My own understanding is that the Church still teaches that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. But they way it is understood is this: Everyone who is saved is saved by in some way being incorporated into the Church, which is the body of Christ. Anyone who is validly baptized is connected to the Church through Baptism. Even a non-baptized person may be incorporated into the Church through baptism of desire or in some manner known only to God.

That’s probably not a very clear explanation, but that’s my understanding. The Church is the means of salvation for everyone who is saved, even for those who do not know or recognize it.
 
vz71 said:
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commenter:
My concern about this topic is that even if Matt Fradd were an expert in canon law (I’m sure he’s not) why is he using the media to tell the laity what the bishop should do?
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It is a weekly pocast.
Discussing the writings of Aquinas on various topics is what he does.
He is not telling the Bishop to do anything, he is looking at the action through the lens of the writings of Aquinas.
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In my diocese the media constantly interviews laity to elicit criticism/second guessing/evaluation of what the bishop did/didn’t/ought to do. Only the juiciest comments make the media.

The media constantly finds “experts” who point out certain options available to the bishop, reported in such a way that it is implied if he doesn’t follow these options, he is negligent. The media does not let viewers know there are other options.

Matt Fradd is more discrete than most commenters in my Diocese. Even so, given the current climate the Church is in, it is imprudent for Fradd, or various experts, to comment in such a way without taking into account our media-polluted ears. Better to support the bishop whether he excommunicates, or takes some other action
 
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Fradd isn’t telling anyone how to think. He’s presenting arguments for and against excommunication through the lense of St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologica
 
AlNg said:
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goout:
If a Catholic championing policies that enable the deaths of millions of people does not rise to the level, where do you propose that level is ?
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I don’t know, but I seem to recall that Sen. Edward Kennedy was given a Catholic funeral and during his lifetime in the Senate he publicly and openly favored abortion rights for women.
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And your point is?
 
AlNg said:
I don’t know, but I seem to recall that Sen. Edward Kennedy was given a Catholic funeral and during his lifetime in the Senate he publicly and openly favored abortion rights for women.
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Yes, but he also refrained from receiving the Eucharist because he knew that his views weren’t the same as the Church’s.
 
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St. Paul ordered the same for a man from the church in Corinth who was sleeping with his father’s wife.

1 Corinthians 5 NIV (BibleHub):

https://biblehub.com/niv/1_corinthians/5.htm

Dealing With a Case of Incest

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, a b so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

6Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister c but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” d
 
Excommunication is popularly considered a damnation. It is not. It is a strong yet loving reminder that if someone doesn’t change their ways, they are headed to hell
 
And the fact that 99 percent of the laity who are concerned about abortion are making no effort to work for prolife election of candidates, is a bad sign in my opinion. Much easier to complain about what the other party is, or isn’t doing, than to work.
 
In many ways the bishops of today are paying for the mistakes, some well intended, of the bishops of yesterday. This is most obvious in the sex abuse issue, but also in other areas. In my diocese the bishop in the 1970s and 80s allowed religious education to eliminate most doctrinal content. He did speak against abortion, but allowed Peace and Justice advocates to dominate the diocesan media and most departments, so prolife was considered one priority among many, each of which deserves equal time. (Many clergy, laity and religious made the same mistake).

Our current bishop is different from his predecessors but laity blame him for the current situation. They want something dramatic and exciting. I will support my Bishop’s prudent decision, whether it be exciting like excommunication, or something else for now.
 
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commenter said:
In many ways the bishops of today are paying for the mistakes, some well intended, of the bishops of yesterday. This is most obvious in the sex abuse issue, but also in other areas. In my diocese the bishop in the 1970s and 80s allowed religious education to eliminate most doctrinal content. He did speak against abortion, but allowed Peace and Justice advocates to dominate the diocesan media and most departments, so prolife was considered one priority among many, each of which deserves equal time. (Many clergy, laity and religious made the same mistake).

Our current bishop is different from his predecessors but laity blame him for the current situation. They want something dramatic and exciting. I will support my Bishop’s prudent decision, whether it be exciting like excommunication, or something else for now.
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Excommunication is not very exciting. A person placing himself outside the bounds of communion by promoting, enacting, and celebrating heinous crimes against humanity is tragic.
 
commenter said:
And the fact that 99 percent of the laity who are concerned about abortion are making no effort to work for prolife election of candidates, is a bad sign in my opinion. Much easier to complain about what the other party is, or isn’t doing, than to work.
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This grossly mischaracterizes the prolife movement.
 
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