Matt Fradd on Andrew Cuomo and Excommunication

[goout]

I’d like to say that I don’t care if Cuomo is receiving communion in a state of mortal sin, but I should care.

What I care about is the slaughter of tens of millions of human beings, and the relative indifference of our servant leaders in the face of public apostasy and scandal.

Who here gives the German people and the Church leadership at that time a free pass pass in cooperating with their leaders in the holocaust by their cowardice or indifference? And how is this issue any different?

1. I believe we are so numbed to the reality of abortion that it doesn’t affect us anymore.
2. I believe our leadership is waaaay too worried about how they are perceived by the secular media, and about losing more butts from the pews, and are compromised by the culture. Hey, I have the same personal battle in my own life in speaking out.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

Yes!! Thank you!!

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Not that I’m aware of. She under duress signed an abjuration of testimony and then recanted a few days later which is what ultimately lead to her execution. She burned “unrepentant” (because she did nothing wrong!) and died excommunicated. Her trial verdict and excommunication were posthumously remitted by the Pope a couple decades later and she was canonized a saint in the early 20th century.

I mention all this not to count Gov. Cuomo among the Saints but to correct your mistaken view that excommunication damns somebody to Hell. A small number of people who are excommunicated are done so unjustly (St. Joan of Arc), others are done so semi-justly but with a lot of political animus (Patriarch Michael I. of Constantinople), even more are not excommunicated but really ought to be, and lots and lots are justly excommunicated. The sheer fact that we believe Hell to be permanent and yet excommunications can be posthumously remitted should tell you that excommunication isn’t a sentence of damnation.

 

[porthos11]

So much talk of excommunication and bishops, without anyone really saying what he should be excommunicated for.

What excommunicable offense has the governor committed?

 

[goout]

Not a canon lawyer but 1369 would seem to apply.

 

[porthos11]

Not a canon lawyer but 1369 would seem to apply.

Okay. 1369 calls for a “just penalty”. Now while a “just penalty” can rise to the level of excommunication, there is a principle that penal laws must be interpreted narrowly. Therefore, can it be said that this man’s actions, abhorrent as they are, rise to this level?

 

[goout]

goout:

Not a canon lawyer but 1369 would seem to apply.

Okay. 1369 calls for a “just penalty”. Now while a “just penalty” can rise to the level of excommunication, there is a principle that penal laws must be interpreted narrowly. Therefore, can it be said that this man’s actions, abhorrent as they are, rise to this level?

Not my call personally.
If a Catholic championing policies that enable the deaths of millions of people does not rise to the level, where do you propose that level is?

 

[goout]

One sure “consolation” that can apply to all of us as individuals and as a Church;
remaining silent and indifferent will not get you crucified.

 

[porthos11]

porthos11:

goout:

Not a canon lawyer but 1369 would seem to apply.

Okay. 1369 calls for a “just penalty”. Now while a “just penalty” can rise to the level of excommunication, there is a principle that penal laws must be interpreted narrowly. Therefore, can it be said that this man’s actions, abhorrent as they are, rise to this level?

Not my call personally.
If a Catholic championing policies that enable the deaths of millions of people does not rise to the level, where do you propose that level is?

I do not propose anything, and neither do any of us. But you can look to the law, and the law is specific where abortions are concerned: it must be intentional and direct. This man’s actions are clearly not at the same level that incurs excommunication where abortion is concerned. Perhaps one can make the argument for “injures good morals” but still, the principle of narrow interpretation applies.

As terrible as this man’s public position is, are we really the authority competent to make this call?

There are things in the Catholic legal structures called courts, trials, and Ordinaries. They make the calls. The point I’m making is that we on forums cannot scream “excommunication!” when in fact the law prescribes excommunication only in very narrow, specific, circumstances.

What CAN be applied against the governor is canon 915, which is not a penal law, but is still a disciplinary one. Clerics ought to have the backbone to respond by publicly imposing this law publicly, as his scandal is public.

I will always defer to @acanonlawyer Dan to vet the principles here.

 

[goout]

goout:

porthos11:

goout:

Not a canon lawyer but 1369 would seem to apply.

Okay. 1369 calls for a “just penalty”. Now while a “just penalty” can rise to the level of excommunication, there is a principle that penal laws must be interpreted narrowly. Therefore, can it be said that this man’s actions, abhorrent as they are, rise to this level?

Not my call personally.
If a Catholic championing policies that enable the deaths of millions of people does not rise to the level, where do you propose that level is?

I do not propose anything, and neither do any of us. But you can look to the law, and the law is specific where abortions are concerned: it must be intentional and direct.

As terrible as this man’s public position is, are we really the authority competent to make this call?

There are things in the Catholic legal structures called courts, trials, and Ordinaries. They make the calls. The point I’m making is that we on forums cannot scream “excommunication!” when in fact the law prescribes excommunication only in very narrow, specific, circumstances.

What CAN be applied against the governernor is canon 915, which is not a penal law, but is still a disciplinary one. Clerics ought to have the backbone to respond by publicly imposing this law publicly, as his scandal is public.

We are not the competent authority obviously. At the same time the Church is a community of believers co-operating in the salvation of all people. We are responsible for one another, both for our salvation and the every day health of one another.

I think the sense that our servant leaders are doing nothing of consequence is a good sense, and I believe that laity ought to exhort each other and our servant leaders to speak up.

Again, we are not talking about individual priests acting out or about tastes in Church discipline. We are talking about the slaughter of millions of human beings while a Catholic political leader cooperates and applauds.

I can’t help but think of Genesis here “your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground”. God hears that call and our Church ought to hear it also.

I just saw your sentence about canon 915 and again, I’m not a lawyer, but for our bishops: do something beyond words.

 

[porthos11]

We are not the competent authority obviously. At the same time the Church is a community of believers co-operating in the salvation of all people. We are responsible for one another, both for our salvation and the every day health of one another.

I think the sense that our servant leaders are doing nothing of consequence is a good sense, and I believe that laity ought to exhort each other and our servant leaders to speak up.

Again, we are not talking about individual priests acting out or about tastes in Church discipline. We are talking about the slaughter of millions of human beings while a Catholic political leader cooperates and applauds.

I can’t help but think of Genesis here “your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground”. God hears that call and our Church ought to hear it also.

Yes, and unfortunately I see too much lack of spine on the part of our shepherds, which is really why I don’t subscribe to the “he’s a priest, listen to him” spiel on these boards. For me, trust of our priests and bishops is earned in this day and age.

I just want people to think soberly, and not scream “excommunication” off the top of their heads. Action needs to be taken, and this can start with a simple letter to the faithful and a proclamation to be read from all the pulpits stating that the governor by his actions has put himself out of a state of good standing with the Church, and therefore, as per canon 915, is to be publicly refused Communion, even should he approach. In this day and age of “collegiality” of bishops, the entire body of bishops of the State of New York can make this statement collectively.

That alone has power in it, while not depriving him of the opportunity to go to confession and make amends.

But alas, I do not expect this to happen.

 

[rose321]

I think there is quite a bit of debate regarding who’s the bishop.

Respectfully opinion only question in pondering

What does our Heavenly Father and his Spoken Word command and say? Bishops are there to uphold His Sacred Word they have been entrusted with right? Jesus strongly rebuked those who added to and subtracted from his word, why Israel sadly broke his Covenant and was punished and receive the …The Laws of Curses not The Laws of Blessings, right?

And we wonder why there is such innocent suffering, wars, injustice taking place still today and why prayers are not being answered?

Cannot serve 2 masters?

This is exactly what Matthew Chapter 23 is all about is it not?
Jesus rebuking his own Temple Elders, High Priest, Priest, Highly learned
men of the Scriptures Laws, Rulers in those times… of not doing?

Jesus boldly, harshly, calling them even Blood vipers, serpents, hypocrites x3 and identifying them as being >>>>. children of the father of lies?
Jesus rebukes them all and holds them all accountable and responsible to uphold the Sacred Royal Moral Laws they are all there to serve?
Jesus gives them all his …Woes?

Yet they can refuse those who are gay from receiving Holy Communion but if they fully sustain from…then they can receive Holy Communion?

They will not let divorce couples receive Holy Communion unless they get annulment their laws again to be able to do so?

Why goes to confession if one repeats the very next day to go back to confession to repeat the next day… and lives not according to the very Laws of God and his Commandments is one not being Faithful to…Thou shall not kill? murder?

Written is it not?.. You are neither cold or hot,but lukewarm and I will spi…you out of mouth and are good for nothing?

Why belong at all?
Why go to confession if one is going to repeat again and live fully that way?
I am so so so confused on this

Sorry forgive but so confused and in pondering on Our Heavenly Father does not accept such and makes this very clear does he not?
How do we become better Human Beings with inhuman laws? Unrighteous laws? That allows us to continue to transgress his laws, leading us into…sin?
Respectfully toward and in

 

[acanonlawyer]

There are things in the Catholic legal structures called courts, trials, and Ordinaries. They make the calls. The point I’m making is that we on forums cannot scream “excommunication!” when in fact the law prescribes excommunication only in very narrow, specific, circumstances.

What CAN be applied against the governor is canon 915, which is not a penal law, but is still a disciplinary one. Clerics ought to have the backbone to respond by publicly imposing this law publicly, as his scandal is public.

I will always defer to @acanonlawyer Dan to vet the principles here.

I think your points are valid.

There have been a couple of canon lawyers who have put some ideas out there, regarding possible avenues of imposing a penalty of some sort, all the way up to excommunication (Ed Peters and Ed Condon are the canonists I’m thinking of).

I see no point in personally saying anything about this case, in terms of what I think this or that bishop should do, can do, must do. If I worked for a bishop who asked for my opinion in a concrete case, I’d tell him. In this forum, though, I try to not say anything about any concrete case.

That’s my choice and I have my reasons. If other people (canon lawyers or otherwise) want to opine about what can/should be done with Cuomo or whom/whatever, fine. Their statements rise or fall based on their knowledge and reasoning.

Dan

 

[AlNg]

excommunication isn’t a sentence of damnation.

If you are excommunicated, are you not outside of the Catholic Church. And I thought that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church?

 

[AlNg]

Not that I’m aware of.

I thought that there were two priests, Father Martin Ladvenu and Father Isambart de la Pierre, with her as she was executed?

 

[edward_george1]

Excommunication doesn’t put you outside of the Church. Once baptized, you can’t be separated from the Church. This is why formal defection was taken out of the Code of Canon Law a few years ago. Excommunication is a legal penalty that cuts off one’s access to the sacraments. It’s meant to be such a serious matter that it shocks the excommunicate into repentance.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[AlNg]

Once baptized, you can’t be separated from the Church.

Here is a video of a Catholic priest joining the Russian Orthodox Church. Do you say that he is still a Catholic and also that he is a Russian Orthodox at the same time?

 

[edward_george1]

He is still in union with the Church by virtue of his baptism, though he might not be in perfect union or in union in the visible and juridical sense.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

thought that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church?

You think only Catholics are saved?

Luke 12:48

 

[AlNg]

You think only Catholics are saved?

I thought that was the teaching of the Catholic Church according to the papal bull Unam Sanctam: “Declaratio quod subesse Romano Pontifici est omni humanae creaturae de necessitate salutis”;