Matthew 1:24-25

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Then Jospeh, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.
From these verses, it appears obvious that Joseph and Mary had sex. Why does the Catholic Church teach otherwise? What would be wrong with acknowledging that they did? In what way would the fact that Mary had normal conjugal relations make her any lesss of a person?
 
When the angel appeared to Mary and announced she would conceive a son, what did Mary say? “How can this be since I know man not?”

If I were about to be married and angel appeared to me and told me I was going to conceive a son, I would think…great…but also duh…I am about to get married…what else did you think was going to happen on my wedding night?

Mary is pretty much affirming that she is not going to have sex…married or not.
 
From these verses, it appears obvious that Joseph and Mary had sex. Why does the Catholic Church teach otherwise? What would be wrong with acknowledging that they did? In what way would the fact that Mary had normal conjugal relations make her any lesss of a person?
What makes it appear obvious? You lost me on that one.
 
From these verses, it appears obvious that Joseph and Mary had sex. Why does the Catholic Church teach otherwise? What would be wrong with acknowledging that they did? In what way would the fact that Mary had normal conjugal relations make her any lesss of a person?
This is a very strange quote to make your case that Joseph had sex with Mary. What part of this quote makes you believe he had sex with her?
 
From these verses, it appears obvious that Joseph and Mary had sex. Why does the Catholic Church teach otherwise? What would be wrong with acknowledging that they did? In what way would the fact that Mary had normal conjugal relations make her any less of a person?
The reason is because in the Greek, the term being translated “until” has different connotations than in English. Depending on where it’s found, this same generic conjunction is translated “to,” “unto,” “as far as,” “even,” “till,” and “until.” So we see it in phrases like, “least to the greatest,” and “I say unto you.” It’s not a perfect translation, which is where the confusion comes in. blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2193&t=KJV

Even when it means “until,” it sometimes means, “until that point and not after,” and other times, it’s just used as sort of a narrative point. In the OT (1 Samuel 15:35), we hear: “Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again, though Samuel mourned for him.” Does this mean that on the day Samuel died, he went and say Saul? No. It means, even up to the point that he died, he didn’t see him. There’s no suggestion whether he saw him or not afterwards. (Incidentally, he did, in 1 Samuel 28:13-14, but that’s not implied by the “until”). Granted, that’s in Hebrew, but the same principle holds true in the Greek.

As for the rest of your question, marital sex isn’t a sin, but those willing to give up the possibility of sex for God are praised for it. Additionally, Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, and as the Old Ark was not to be touched by man, as Uzzah found out the hard way in 2 Samuel 6:1-8.

Mary’s status as Virgin is prophesied in Isaiah 7:14, but note that in neither Matthew nor Luke’s Gospel do we find Mary (or Joseph) being **told **not to have sex. There’s not just a lack of instruction to remain *perpetually *a Virgin, we don’t find the angel telling her even to remain a virgin *until Jesus is born. *And remember, she married Joseph in the interim, as the verse you cited points out. So why was she even a virgin prior to Jesus’ birth? There’s two options: either the angel instructed her to remain a Virgin (and it just wasn’t recorded), or more likely, she’d taken a vow of perpetual chastity.

We see a hint of that in the Gospel, in Luke 1:34, when Mary asks, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” If Mary was about to be married, and the angel comes and says, “you’re gonna bear the Messiah!” a normal bride-to-be wouldn’t have to ask, “But how?” Because a normal bride-to-be is intending upon having sex. To the extent that the Bible suggests an answer to why Mary was a virgin prior to Jesus’ birth, this is that answer.

Jesus describes this type of vow in Matthew 19:12:
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
A eunuch is someone *incapable *of having sex. Jesus is using some pretty irretractable language - not just a hold-out-wait-and-see, but a give-it-up-for-good. So Jesus considers the highest form of devotion to Him the kind of devotion that will forgo the earthly marital pleasures to which we’re entitled, just to focus more on the Kingdom of Heaven. St. Paul desires something similar in 1 Corinthians 7:7-9:
I would like everyone to be like me [celibate], but each has from God a particular gift, some in one way, others differently. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it would be good for them to remain as I am, but if they cannot control themselves, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Paul even ***requires ***the widows supported by the community (something like nuns) in 1 Timothy 5:11 to be celibate. Note that these celibate women needed to be supported, because women in the 1st century generally weren’t able to support themselves. So they were either supported by the community (as in the 1 Timothy 5 example) or supported by a man willing to abide by their vows (usually an older widower, just happy to have the companionship). It is into this latter category which the early Church claimed that Mary belonged.

I suppose that my question is: if Mary is the most blessed of all women, and this status is related to her intensely deep faith, why are you surprised that she fits this category of celibates? And secondly, if not for a vow of celibacy, how do you explain the strange question Mary asks, and her and Joseph’s refusal to engage in marital sex even prior to the birth of Christ?
 
Welcome to CAF mmlj4u,

I bet you think no one has ever asked us “catholics” this question … or that we must be too ignorant to consider that ourselves …

the definition of “Until or Til” …it means … up to the time of

So all we can be sure of from the passage is that Mary and Joseph did not have sexual relations before the birth of the Child Jesus … the word until places absolutely no restrictions on future events … one can make an assumption of what occurred in the future but the limitation imposed by the use is on the subject of the sentence [being an engineer - Pythagorus is my friend - so I’ll leave the in depth liguistic grammer analysis to those who befriended Thesaurus] … but this much I know … the writers of the Gospel were interested in establsihing the paternity rights of the Holy Spirit over the earthly paternity of Joseph - nothing more and nothing less …

So I assume nothing from the passage beyond the writers intention …as we all know what happens when we “*** … U … ME” something - don’t we? 😉

Another poster asked you to consider Mary’s response to the Angel. And so I ask you

Q: Why would Mary -an espoused person - have answered the way she did when told of a future event [pregnancy] which would be not only the norm but one expected of the culture and times ? …

Q: What did the early Christian community believe about Mary and whether she remained a “Virgin” or not?

Q: As you must come from a Protestant tradition - What did teh early reformers believe about Mary?

Again welcome … I will await your response …
 
From these verses, it appears obvious that Joseph and Mary had sex. Why does the Catholic Church teach otherwise? What would be wrong with acknowledging that they did? In what way would the fact that Mary had normal conjugal relations make her any lesss of a person?
Acts 8:39 says: But Philip was found at Azotus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesarea.

If your interpretation were correct, then it is obvious that Philip started preaching **against **the gospel once he came to Caesarea, yet later in Acts 21:8, Philip is still called an evangelist.

The Bible teaches we are to distinguish between what is holy and what is common and directs that holy things not be used for common purposes. At the incarnation, the reproductive system of the Virgin Mary became a holy thing, consecrated to God. Using it for common marital relations, otherwise a good thing, would, after the birth of Jesus, have been a desecration.
 
From these verses, it appears obvious that Joseph and Mary had sex. Why does the Catholic Church teach otherwise? What would be wrong with acknowledging that they did? In what way would the fact that Mary had normal conjugal relations make her any lesss of a person?
I know a man who did not drink until the day he died. Does that mean he drank on that day, or after death? It’s a language use problem which requires further explanation to understand.
  1. How does this affect Jesus if His mother remained virgin after His birth? Rather than dishonor Him, doesn’t it actually build Him up?
  2. Do you find this belief somehow impossible or threatening? (Matthew 19:26)
  3. Mary is described in the bible as mother only of Jesus. No one else. Jesus is listed as having “brethren” or “brothers and sisters”, but that has already been explained.
  4. Peter addresses the "brethren"as his own in Acts 1:14-16. But, it also says they were Jesus’ brethren. How is this possible?
Another point to ponder: Joseph was a righteous man correct? (Matthew 1:19). Joseph was warned in a dream that what was conceived in Mary’s womb was of the Holy Spirit. Tell us why Joseph would then violate that sacred ground. Where does it say in the bible that he did?

Again, at the foot of the cross, why would Jesus give John to Mary as a son if she had others to support her? (John 19:26-27).

Catholics know what this passage you refer to looks like. But, they also know what it is.
 
Hey-great responses. But I am not convinced. Mary was Joseph’s betrothed wife, and so, until he took her to himself, she was going to be a virgin according to the custom. So thereis nothing out of the ordinary in her response to the angel.

And, concerning the use of the word “virgin” in the Prophets, that is incorrect. In the hebrew, the word is not “virgin”, but “young woman”. It’s an improper translation, that’s all.

I take this verse at its face value-Joseph “knew not” Mary until she had given birth. That could well be possible. Then after she had given birth to Jesus, she had a normal marriage relationship with Joseph, giving birth to Jesus’ brothers and sisters.
 
And, concerning the use of the word “virgin” in the Prophets, that is incorrect. In the hebrew, the word is not “virgin”, but “young woman”. It’s an improper translation, that’s all.
Really? Matthew 1:22-23.
 
I take this verse at its face value-Joseph “knew not” Mary until she had given birth. That could well be possible. Then after she had given birth to Jesus, she had a normal marriage relationship with Joseph, giving birth to Jesus’ brothers and sisters.
You are still reading into scripture what isn’t there! How many virgin births are recorded in human history? One. How many men in human history have been visited by an Angel, telling them that their wife-to-be is pregnant by the Holy Spirit? One. Do you suppose that might change Joseph’s opinion and actions just a little? Joseph was a very obedient man, keeping to the 613 laws of the Mosaic covenant. He was God-fearing in the ancient Jewish manner. Why would he violate the sacred ground of God’s Spirit?

Again, this has zero bearing on anything to do with the life and teachings of Christ, so why worry? If you just want to have an opinion that is opposed to the teaching of the Catholic Church, fine. However, once in the judgment seat of Christ, do you want to look Him in the eye and tell him that His mother was just a common woman? God didn’t think so and neither do I.

Mary was probably 15 when this happened. What could she have done in her short life as a teenager to merit God’s one-time-for-all-time favor and a visit from Gabriel, who stands in God’s presence? It all points to a very special, one of a kind woman.
 
Hey-great responses. But I am not convinced. Mary was Joseph’s betrothed wife, and so, until he took her to himself, she was going to be a virgin according to the custom. So thereis nothing out of the ordinary in her response to the angel.
So, when the angel said you shall conceive, why would she ask “How can this be”. Wouldn’t she just assume it would be with Joseph. That seems the obvious assumption.
And, concerning the use of the word “virgin” in the Prophets, that is incorrect. In the hebrew, the word is not “virgin”, but “young woman”. It’s an improper translation, that’s all.
But the Greek was translated by devout Jews, not early Catholics. It seems our good 2nd and 3rd century Jews assumed that a young maiden in ancient Israel was most likely a virgin. Besides, what kind of a “sign” is a young maden conceiving, unless she was a virgin?

And don’t forget. The Holy Spirit inspired Matthew to use the “improper” translation. Do you still want to stick with your story, my friend?
I take this verse at its face value-Joseph “knew not” Mary until she had given birth. That could well be possible. Then after she had given birth to Jesus, she had a normal marriage relationship with Joseph, giving birth to Jesus’ brothers and sisters.
But you are asserting 21st century “face value” into ancient Israel. This is called poor scholarship.
 
Another example of the error within the protestant denominations, all it needs is an understanding of the language that was used in Jerusalem at the time and i believe that would answer a lot of their questions.
 
Another example of the error within the protestant denominations, all it needs is an understanding of the language that was used in Jerusalem at the time and i believe that would answer a lot of their questions.
And, since perpetual virginity has NOTHING at all to do with Jesus’ public ministry, one must wonder why they are so dead set against it…
 
When Joseph took Mary to be his wife, there is no implications that sexual relations will take place. Just marriage for the sake of Christ having an earthly father to help raise him as a proper Jewish child into adulthood. Mary did not need to have sexual relations to conceive Jesus. The Holy Spirit filled her with the presence of our Lord. Trans substantiation…to pass through and not disturb physically the workings or physical make up of something already there…The Holy Spirit placed Jesus inside Mary’s womb. Joseph’s sperm was not necessary. the Holy Spirit is part of the Holy Trinity So is Jesus…normal sexual relations did not have to happen for Christ to be born.
Joseph married Mary, so that she wouldn’t be stoned to death or called a harlot and adulterer. He was engaged to her already, but pushed forward for the wedding so that it wouldn’t look or be improper for Mary to be pregnant outside of marriage.
 
From these verses, it appears obvious that Joseph and Mary had sex. Why does the Catholic Church teach otherwise? What would be wrong with acknowledging that they did? In what way would the fact that Mary had normal conjugal relations make her any lesss of a person?
no it is not obvious. “Until” does not always mean “first it didn’t happen, then it did”.

this line of thought simply does not take into account all the meanings of the English word used in translation, which actually has several meanings, one of which is simply “it did not happen before this time” without any implication as to what happened after. the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity is unbroken teaching of the Church for 2000 years, so yes it matters, because to say the Church has taught falsely is to say Jesus lied when he promised that the Holy Spirit would protect the Church from teaching error, and that is huge.
 
…Then after she had given birth to Jesus, she had a normal marriage relationship with Joseph, giving birth to Jesus’ brothers and sisters.
Joseph was older than Mary, perhaps as old as 50. He could possibly have been a widower with children who were already grown (brothers and sisters?!). He took Mary as his wife to be her guardian, knowing before the Annunciation that she was a consecrated virgin, a rite that probably occurred in the Temple, and thus would have been public knowledge.

If Jesus had younger brothers and sisters, then why did he give his mother to John when he was on the cross? John wasn’t a relative of any kind. Jesus was an only child. You’re case falls down from that point forward.

Keep in mind that the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head was a virgin who only had one Son. After that, her place is prepared for her. She is no ordinary woman. Jesus created His own Mother perfect. It would have been foolish to not do so.
 
Hey-great responses. But I am not convinced. Mary was Joseph’s betrothed wife, and so, until he took her to himself, she was going to be a virgin according to the custom. So thereis nothing out of the ordinary in her response to the angel.

And, concerning the use of the word “virgin” in the Prophets, that is incorrect. In the hebrew, the word is not “virgin”, but “young woman”. It’s an improper translation, that’s all.

I take this verse at its face value-Joseph “knew not” Mary until she had given birth. That could well be possible. Then after she had given birth to Jesus, she had a normal marriage relationship with Joseph, giving birth to Jesus’ brothers and sisters.
You did not respond to all of my specific questions - so here they are again

Q: What did the early Christian community believe about Mary and whether she remained a “Virgin” or not?

PLEASE PROVIDE QUOTES WHERE THEY SUPPORT YOUR VIEW

Q: As you must come from a Protestant tradition - What did the early reformers believe about Mary?

AGAIN PLEASE PROVIDE QUOTES WHERE THEY SUPPORT YOUR UNDERSTANDING

AND FOR THIS Question:

Q: Why would Mary -an espoused person - have answered the way she did when told of a future event [pregnancy] which would be not only the norm but one expected of the culture and times ? …

Your response is very weak …
Mary was Joseph’s betrothed wife, and so, until he took her to himself, she was going to be a virgin according to the custom. So thereis nothing out of the ordinary in her response to the angel.
Any normal person speaking to an engaged woman who said “you will have a child” [please note the future tense] would be perfectly understood to mean that the couple would have children … Mary would not jump to the thought that the future time suggested would be in the future that existed between the message of the angel and the wedding night with Joseph …

Your plain reading of the text equates to Mary’s understanding the Angel to tell her that An “Out of the Ordinary Event” that will occur in a ’Future Time" - AND where the ’Future Time’ is limited by a ’Planned Event’ AND where that ’Planned Event’ would make the “Out of the Ordinary Event” become something perfectly understood and known as a “Normal and Expected Event” … to which she replies “how…?”

To which I can only ask you … How can this [your certainty that you are correct in your interpretation of the plain meaning] be?

I will be out of town until Tuesday …

That gives you plenty of time to research what the Early Christians belived …

And the Reformers [Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et al] and perhaps where your interpretation came from and its late entrance into the Christian prrotestant tradition …

And also some time to meditate and study the scripture passage of the Annunciation

Again welcome to CAF … I will await your response … and look for it on Tuesday Evening … Have a nice weekend
 
Belloc Fan:
Mary’s status as Virgin is prophesied in Isaiah 7:14, but note that in neither Matthew nor Luke’s Gospel do we find Mary (or Joseph) being told not to have sex. There’s not just a lack of instruction to remain perpetually a Virgin, we don’t find the angel telling her even to remain a virgin until Jesus is born. And remember, she married Joseph in the interim, as the verse you cited points out. So why was she even a virgin prior to Jesus’ birth? There’s two options: either the angel instructed her to remain a Virgin (and it just wasn’t recorded), or more likely, she’d taken a vow of perpetual chastity.

We see a hint of that in the Gospel, in Luke 1:34, when Mary asks, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” If Mary was about to be married, and the angel comes and says, “you’re gonna bear the Messiah!” a normal bride-to-be wouldn’t have to ask, “But how?” Because a normal bride-to-be is intending upon having sex. To the extent that the Bible suggests an answer to why Mary was a virgin prior to Jesus’ birth, this is that answer…
This is prophesied long before Isaiah. When God put Adam and Eve out of the garden, He promised (in Gen 3:15) “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” Jesus is the promised “seed of the woman”. This could only be accomplished by a virgin birth. She had to remain a virgin throughout the pregnancy to confirm that Jesus was the promised one. Personally, I believe that when Jesus was born, the seal of Mary’s virginity was stuck to His forehead (sealing the covenant in blood, and confirming beyond doubt that Jesus is the Promised Savior), despite the myth of her perpetual virginity.

Joseph and Mary didn’t have to be told to have sex; they were already engaged (BEFORE the angel came to Mary), and there is NOTHING in the text that would indicate this was anything other than a normal marriage they were entering into. The idea of Mary taking a vow is ludicrous. Why would someone with such a vow get engaged? Who COULD marry someone with such a vow? I suppose, though, if the vow hypothesis is the best reason the Church can come up with to explain Luke 1:34, then that means nothing else could possibly explain it. But, just to give a different perspective, I will point out that we do not know where Mary was or what she was doing when the angel appeared to her. A brief look through scriptures at other angelic visitations will show that they generally appear as men. Imagine, if you will, a young woman, engaged to be married, living in a small town where everybody knows everybody else. You’re alone, probably doing some chore (like laundry), and a good-looking stranger comes along and greets you with “Hail, full of grace!” What would you do? Not being a woman, I can’t say for sure, but I imagine she was probably wondering who this was, and maybe even glancing around to see if anyone was around that could help her if she screamed. Now this person tells you you’re going to have a son! I can imagine her answering EXACTLY as she did! This would clearly indicate that she was a virgin, and intended to stay that way until she was married! How about that! A plausible explanation that doesn’t require a mythical vow of celibacy!
Belloc Fan:
I suppose that my question is: if Mary is the most blessed of all women, and this status is related to her intensely deep faith, why are you surprised that she fits this category of celibates? And secondly, if not for a vow of celibacy, how do you explain the strange question Mary asks, and her and Joseph’s refusal to engage in marital sex even prior to the birth of Christ?
Mary is unquestionably the most blessed among women. And yet, the Church denies she had a normal family life.
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po18guy:
  1. How does this affect Jesus if His mother remained virgin after His birth? Rather than dishonor Him, doesn’t it actually build Him up?
  2. Do you find this belief somehow impossible or threatening? (Matthew 19:26)
  3. Mary is described in the bible as mother only of Jesus. No one else. Jesus is listed as having “brethren” or “brothers and sisters”, but that has already been explained.
  4. Peter addresses the "brethren"as his own in Acts 1:14-16. But, it also says they were Jesus’ brethren. How is this possible?
Another point to ponder: Joseph was a righteous man correct? (Matthew 1:19). Joseph was warned in a dream that what was conceived in Mary’s womb was of the Holy Spirit. Tell us why Joseph would then violate that sacred ground. Where does it say in the bible that he did?

Again, at the foot of the cross, why would Jesus give John to Mary as a son if she had others to support her? (John 19:26-27).

Catholics know what this passage you refer to looks like. But, they also know what it is.
  1. Doesn’t affect Jesus one way or the other.
  2. Personally, I believe that, since we are not told otherwise, it is not at all unreasonable to believe that Joseph and Mary had normal, marital relations.
  3. Since the subject of the New Testament is Jesus, why does not specifically mentioning Mary as the mother of someone else come as a surprise? BTW – I would contest such a claim (Matt 13:55-56, Mark 6:3)
  4. Context in Acts 1:14-16 is NOT the same as Matt 13:55-56 or Mark 6:3.
Joseph was a righteous man, but he was not specifically told NOT to have normal marital relations with his wife! I would also point out that Mary gave birth to a normal, healthy baby boy (human) who also happened to be the creator of all things (God the Son). I suggest that, since Jesus was a man like us in all points except sin, then there would have been no problem with Joseph and Mary having normal marital relations. As far as Jesus giving Mary to John,
. . . continued . . .
 
I would point out that 1. His biological brothers weren’t there, 2. John was a “brother” of the Lord, as Jesus outlined in Matt 12:50 and Mark 3:35.
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po18guy:
You are still reading into scripture what isn’t there! How many virgin births are recorded in human history? One. How many men in human history have been visited by an Angel, telling them that their wife-to-be is pregnant by the Holy Spirit? One. Do you suppose that might change Joseph’s opinion and actions just a little? Joseph was a very obedient man, keeping to the 613 laws of the Mosaic covenant. He was God-fearing in the ancient Jewish manner. Why would he violate the sacred ground of God’s Spirit?
I suggest it is the Catholic Church that is reading things that aren’t there. I would point out here that the angel told Joseph “fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife”. No mention that she is to be kept a virgin throughout her life. Again, since there is nothing specifically denying Joseph and Mary from engaging in normal marital relations, then I have no problem believing they enjoyed marital union.

As far as the bearing on the life and teaching of Christ, I would remind you that the Church has placed an anathema on anyone who denies Mary’s perpetual virginity. Since this is the case, I think this is a very relevant question for Catholics to consider! As far as this being a “constant teaching of the Church for 2000 years”, when does this teaching first appear in print? I would point to the Protevangelium of James, which is a Gnostic work dating back to the middle of the second century. Since the Gnostics deny Jesus actually came in the flesh, it is no wonder that Mary supposedly remained physically intact during and after the birth (according to this writing Jesus “beamed out” of Mary, which was also a painless process).
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ahollars:
Joseph was older than Mary, perhaps as old as 50. He could possibly have been a widower with children who were already grown (brothers and sisters?!). He took Mary as his wife to be her guardian, knowing before the Annunciation that she was a consecrated virgin, a rite that probably occurred in the Temple, and thus would have been public knowledge.

If Jesus had younger brothers and sisters, then why did he give his mother to John when he was on the cross? John wasn’t a relative of any kind. Jesus was an only child. You’re case falls down from that point forward.

Keep in mind that the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head was a virgin who only had one Son. After that, her place is prepared for her. She is no ordinary woman. Jesus created His own Mother perfect. It would have been foolish to not do so.
What is your evidence Joseph’s age? If he had other children from a previous marriage, Jesus could NOT have been the rightful heir to the throne of David (that would have gone to Joseph’s firstborn son). What evidence do you have that Joseph took Mary as his wife in a guardianship role? What evidence do you have that Mary had taken any such vow of virginity? The woman of Revelation 12 has not always been taught to be Mary. Victorinus, who lived from the end of the third to the beginning of the fourth century, wrote a commentary on the Apocalypse of John (Revelation). Here’s what he had to say about Rev 12:1 – ‘“And there was seen a great sign in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. And being with child, she cried out travailing, and bearing torments that she might bring forth.”] The woman clothed with the sun, and having the moon under her feet, and wearing a crown of twelve stars upon her head, and travailing in her pains, is the ancient Church of fathers, and prophets, and saints, and apostles,12 which had the groans and torments of its longing until it saw that Christ, the fruit of its people according to the flesh long promised to it, had taken flesh out of the selfsame people. Moreover, being clothed with the sun intimates the hope of resurrection and the glory of the promise. And the moon intimates the fall of the bodies of the saints under the obligation of death, which never can fail. For even as life is diminished, so also it is increased. Nor is the hope of those that sleep extinguished absolutely, as some think, but they have in their darkness a light such as the moon. And the crown of twelve stars signifies the choir of fathers, according to the fleshly birth, of whom Christ was to take flesh.’

As far as what the reformers believed, what makes you think I consider them infallible? They were born and raised Catholic (for the most part), and didn’t break with Rome because of the Marian teachings, so it is not unreasonable to acknowledge that they accept what Rome taught at that time. I would suggest that if the Council of Trent had declared the dogmas of Immaculate Conception and Bodily Assumption, there would have been an outcry from these reformers (this, admittedly, is mere speculation on part, so there is no need to respond to it).
 
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