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PRmerger
Guest
Psalm 69 says that Mary had other children?
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
The problem with your reply is that I may be guided by the Holy Spirit too. How can two opposite opinions both be guided by the Holy Spirit? Is anyone reading Scriptures automatically being guided by the Holy Spirit?
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
The Church, following [the] teaching of St. Paul, (1 Corinthians 7:25-40) has always considered the state of virginity or celibacy preferable in itself to the state of marriage, and the Council of Trent (Sess. XXIV, Can. 10) pronounces an anathema against the opposite doctrine.
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TinaG
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New International Version (©1984)Psalm 69 says that Mary had other children?
I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother’s sons;
New Living Translation (©2007)
Even my own brothers pretend they don’t know me; they treat me like a stranger.
English Standard Version (©2001)
I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother’s sons.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
I have become estranged from my brothers And an alien to my mother’s sons.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
I have been a stranger to my brothers and a foreigner to the children of my mother.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I have become a stranger to my [own] brothers, a foreigner to my mother’s sons.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I have become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.
American King James Version
I am become a stranger to my brothers, and an alien to my mother’s children.
American Standard Version
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, And an alien unto my mother’s children.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I am become a stranger to my brethren, and an alien to the sons of my mother.
Darby Bible Translation
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s sons;
English Revised Version
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.
Webster’s Bible Translation
I am become a stranger to my brethren, and an alien to my mother’s children.
World English Bible
I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother’s children.
Young’s Literal Translation
A stranger I have been to my brother, And a foreigner to sons of my mother.
And finally
I have become an outcast to my kindred,
a stranger to my mother’s children.
usccb.org/bible/psalms/69/
In preparing your defense see also catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/12/does-psalm-698-proves-that-mary-had.html. IMHO he is working overtime to draw his conclusion on this to show it is a draw.
-Tina “
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TinaG
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I am all in favor of you being guided by the Holy Spirit. The more the better!
Yes I know this is an introductory statement.
Circumstantially: If I am to marry a man and you are to marry a woman, we may both be guided by the Holy Spirit to seemingly opposite opinions.
Doctrinally: As a doctor sometimes prescribes something to raise the temperature, and other times something to bring it down, so we may need to hear different things, such as one needs to hear of mercy, and another of judgement, or from time to time in one’s life the “message” differs, but there is an ultimate consistency beyond our comprehension. One may be guided to join the Dominicans and minister to the poor in Haiti, another to a life of contemplation, yet each of these two may insist that this is the call for all Christians. I have seen people take a verse that God spoke to them and attempt to turn it into a doctrine. When He quits speaking, we should too - too often we take what He has said and add to it. Yet there can be guidance by the Holy Spirit, and our hearing may not be so hot - like a car with lousy steering, we may wander all over the road - not because the driver is bad, but because the car has a lousy steering system and badly aligned tires.
Is anyone reading Scriptures automatically being guided by the Holy Spirit?
You make it sound like the Scriptures would drive the Holy Spirit’s leading. He Who inspired them does not necessarily guide everyone reading them. A professor I knew in college knew the NT inside and out yet remained a fierce atheist, blind to the things of God. I cannot say he was guided. Haven’t you had a verse suddenly leap out at you with wondrous application, even though you have read it a hundred times before, but now it is really alive to you? The Spirit goes where He wishes (John 3) and I think you cannot say that anyone picking up a Bible suddenly is being in-spired (dash is deliberate).
-Tina “Wishing I was an Inspiring Writer” G
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Gorgias
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Hmm… ok; but since the prophecy says “virgin”, this helps a “what-if”… how?
See Matthew 18:15. It uses the word adelphos (brother) just like Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55 do. Is Jesus saying, “here’s the way that you should deal with the son of your mother”, or does he mean “here’s the way to deal with people”? Doesn’t Matthew 23:8 tells us that we “are all brothers”?
In any case, Jesus’ response in Mark 6 and Matthew 13 doesn’t deal with brothers, but rather hometown (patridi – notice that the root of this is “family” – it’s the family’s land), and relatives (suggenys), and household (oikos).
It may be unconvincing to you; but in any case, there’s nothing there that suggests that the use of “adelphos” and “adelphais” means that Mary had other children…!
No, not quite. Let’s try this again – now, remember that we’re dealing with the “what-if” that says that Mary and Joseph had relations, but no children. That would mean that the union of Mary and Joseph was barren. That would mean that the union (since it included natural marital relations, as you’re positing) wasn’t blessed by God, wouldn’t it? That would mean that Mary wasn’t “highly favored” by God, wouldn’t it?The second: she, having had Jesus, was not barren. You seem to be arguing that she was not highly favored because the only child she has was Jesus, and look how He turned out.
Sure, it’s an argument that doesn’t hold – but that’s cause the premises don’t hold.
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Gorgias
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“First-born of all creation” refers to the Logos. I don’t think that it is relevant in this context.
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Gorgias
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I think you’re answering a different question than was asked of you. Yes, regarding separate questions, such as who distinct people should marry, there can be two answers. That’s as silly an answer as saying, “if I should eat steak tonight and chicken tomorrow, then there are two distinct answers to the question ‘what should I eat?’”
On the “doctrinal” side of your answer, you’re confusing “what is the meaning of this Scripture?” with the question “what is this Scripture saying to me in my particular life at this moment?”
The question asked of you (if I can speak up on his behalf) is more precise: how can the Holy Spirit “mean” two mutually exclusive things in the context of a particular Scripture? This is what seems to strain credulity.
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TinaG
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Ok. One says the Holy Spirit told him water is wet, his opponent that water is dry. Only one is truly guided by the Holy Spirit, correct (personally I would bet on the first guy)? In this case we have a situation where we can verify this: I pour water on the second guy’s head and he is shocked to discover that He Heard Wrong. If he is an honest sort he will admit the stuff is wet. A blockhead will insist that it is dry because that is what the Holy Spirit told him, despite the clear evidence.I think you’re answering a different question than was asked of you. Yes, regarding separate questions, such as who distinct people should marry, there can be two answers. That’s as silly an answer as saying, “if I should eat steak tonight and chicken tomorrow, then there are two distinct answers to the question ‘what should I eat?’”
On the “doctrinal” side of your answer, you’re confusing “what is the meaning of this Scripture?” with the question “what is this Scripture saying to me in my particular life at this moment?”
The question asked of you (if I can speak up on his behalf) is more precise: how can the Holy Spirit “mean” two mutually exclusive things in the context of a particular Scripture? This is what seems to strain credulity.
That’s easy, of course. So we move into where you are comfortable, and ask the questions concerning where things are not so easily verifiable. One group insists on infant baptism. Another denies it, etc., and both are, uh, powered by the Holy Spirit. I like where my denomination is that, and that it is not an essential but there is room in charity for both views, and so we both baptize and dedicate infants, and baptize adults. The grounds for this is that there is a case for both in the Scriptures held by sincere believers, and we have room for both. I would suspect those who do not have sufficient charity to tolerate divergent views as NOT being led by the Holy Spirit, as they are not walking in love.
We can debate over the meaning of Scripture. Parts of it are crystal clear (forgive. love. trust God. Endure suffering). Parts of it are not so clear, such as much of the book of Revelations. Parts of it are simply beyond human comprehension. We chew the meat we can chew, we do not chew the bones that are too tough for us.
Can the Holy Spirit speak two completely and ultimately contradictory things in the context of one Scripture? Is that the question? Hmmm… We have one God, but three persons in that one God. Some would argue that is an ultimate contradiction, but it is also a reality, and a unity.
-Tina “This is getting deep” G
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Gorgias
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Yes. This, finally, is the question. What’s your answer?
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TinaG
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That was my answer. I gave the cardinal example of an inherent contradiction that is also true: the Trinity. I also said that Scripture describes things that go beyond human comprehension. In that sense we may apprehend certain portions of a Scripture without getting the full picture, and that also by the help of the Holy Spirit.
-Tina “Does that Answer Your Question about the Question?” G
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Hokomai
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Indeed, Ambrose SJ, you are 100% correct. But the Church has never, to my knowledge, said that abstaining from sex within marriage is preferable to the other thing. That this the case that must be defended in relation to Mary, if the traditions about her are to make sense.
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TinaG
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Could it actually have been a marriage if not consummated?
-Tina “Wondering” G
-Tina “Wondering” G
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PeterGStanley
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Mary has only one question for the angel Gabriel. And it’s a question that provides a beautiful window into Our Lady’s unique spiritual life, but one we might overlook if we don’t read the Annunciation account carefully: Mary says to the angel, “How can this be since I do not know man?” or how ever your bible says it.
Two important facts will help us better appreciate the significance of Mary’s question. First, at this moment in the story we know that Mary is a virgin betrothed to Joseph, meaning that she is at the first stage of marriage. She is truly married to Joseph but not yet living with him, for she has not arrived at the second stage of marriage known as the “coming together,” when husband and wife typically would begin to live in the same house and consummate the marriage.
Second, Mary has been told by Gabriel that at some time in the future she will bear a son who will be the royal Son of David, the Messiah-King. Notice the future tense: “You will conceive in your womb and bear a son” (Lk. 1:31, emphasis added). So far, Gabriel gives no indication that the conception will take place right now or in the immediate future. In fact, the timetable is quite open-ended. Without giving any time specification, the angel simply informs Mary that she will conceive this child at some time in the future.
Now consider this: If Mary were just an ordinary Jewish betrothed woman—planning on consummating her marriage once she reached the coming-together stage—when would she expect such a pregnancy to take place? In other words, if a betrothed woman in the first century was informed by a prophet that she was going to have a child at some time in the future, when would that woman expect such a pregnancy to begin? Presumably, sometime after betrothal—after the coming together, when sexual intercourse was permitted. Spoken to an ordinary betrothed woman, such an announcement about conceiving a child would naturally point to her future married life, after consummation.
In this light, Mary’s question seems rather peculiar: “How can this be since I do not know man?” If Mary is planning on consummating her marriage with Joseph in the near future, the answer to her question should be obvious. While she does not right now have the power to conceive a child (since she doesn’t yet “know” man sexually), if Mary intends to know Joseph after the coming together, then she evidently will be able to have a child at that point. Therefore, if Mary is planning on consummating her marriage with Joseph, her question—“How can this be since I do not know man?”—simply does not make sense.
Neither the Gospels nor any other New Testament writings tell us when Mary decided to remain a virgin. However, it is clearly apparent from her question to the angel at the time of the annunciation that she had come to a very firm decision. Mary did not hesitate to express her desire to preserve her virginity even in view of the proposed motherhood, showing that her intention had matured over a long period.
According to John Paul II, when Mary’s question is seen in this light, her statement about not knowing man further indicates her intention to remain a virgin. He notes how Mary’s expression about not “knowing” man is in the present tense, which “reveals the permanence and continuity” of her virginal state. Mary says she does not know man in the sense that she does not intend to know man.
Two important facts will help us better appreciate the significance of Mary’s question. First, at this moment in the story we know that Mary is a virgin betrothed to Joseph, meaning that she is at the first stage of marriage. She is truly married to Joseph but not yet living with him, for she has not arrived at the second stage of marriage known as the “coming together,” when husband and wife typically would begin to live in the same house and consummate the marriage.
Second, Mary has been told by Gabriel that at some time in the future she will bear a son who will be the royal Son of David, the Messiah-King. Notice the future tense: “You will conceive in your womb and bear a son” (Lk. 1:31, emphasis added). So far, Gabriel gives no indication that the conception will take place right now or in the immediate future. In fact, the timetable is quite open-ended. Without giving any time specification, the angel simply informs Mary that she will conceive this child at some time in the future.
Now consider this: If Mary were just an ordinary Jewish betrothed woman—planning on consummating her marriage once she reached the coming-together stage—when would she expect such a pregnancy to take place? In other words, if a betrothed woman in the first century was informed by a prophet that she was going to have a child at some time in the future, when would that woman expect such a pregnancy to begin? Presumably, sometime after betrothal—after the coming together, when sexual intercourse was permitted. Spoken to an ordinary betrothed woman, such an announcement about conceiving a child would naturally point to her future married life, after consummation.
In this light, Mary’s question seems rather peculiar: “How can this be since I do not know man?” If Mary is planning on consummating her marriage with Joseph in the near future, the answer to her question should be obvious. While she does not right now have the power to conceive a child (since she doesn’t yet “know” man sexually), if Mary intends to know Joseph after the coming together, then she evidently will be able to have a child at that point. Therefore, if Mary is planning on consummating her marriage with Joseph, her question—“How can this be since I do not know man?”—simply does not make sense.
Neither the Gospels nor any other New Testament writings tell us when Mary decided to remain a virgin. However, it is clearly apparent from her question to the angel at the time of the annunciation that she had come to a very firm decision. Mary did not hesitate to express her desire to preserve her virginity even in view of the proposed motherhood, showing that her intention had matured over a long period.
According to John Paul II, when Mary’s question is seen in this light, her statement about not knowing man further indicates her intention to remain a virgin. He notes how Mary’s expression about not “knowing” man is in the present tense, which “reveals the permanence and continuity” of her virginal state. Mary says she does not know man in the sense that she does not intend to know man.
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PeterGStanley
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While Mary’s commitment to virginity makes the most sense out of her question, two objections commonly arise. First, some object that Jews in the first century did not hold up virginity as a religious ideal. The Old Testament highlights how being fruitful and multiplying is a blessing and notes how dying childless is perceived as something to bewail.
However, one may respond by explaining that while a commitment to virginity was not common in ancient Judaism, it was not unheard of. The prophet Jeremiah was called by God to remain celibate (see Jer. 16:1). John the Baptist, St. Paul, and Jesus Himself remained celibate. Many members of a Jewish sect known as the Essenes practiced celibacy. There is even evidence of at least some Jewish women remaining virgins by their own decision. Therefore, while virginity was by no means a widespread religious ideal, remaining a virgin in order to serve God was not completely unheard of in the first-century Jewish world in which Mary lived. If these others willingly lived lifelong virginity, there’s no reason to exclude the possibility of Mary doing so, too.
A second question often raised is, “Why would Mary accept betrothal to Joseph if she intended to remain a virgin?” Diverse explanations have been given for this unique marriage. Perhaps since remaining a single woman was not as socially feasible in the ancient world of Judaism as it is today, marriage would have provided economic stability and social protection for Mary. Perhaps the marriage was arranged. Perhaps marriage would free Mary from other men seeking her hand in marriage and thus protect her vow. Perhaps God led Mary to marriage because in His providence, He wanted to protect her reputation for the future when she would conceive by the Holy Spirit. John Paul II pondered this question, too, and offered his own suggestion:
We can wonder why she would accept betrothal, since she had the intention of remaining a virgin forever . . . It may be presumed that at the time of their betrothal there was an understanding between Joseph and Mary about the plan to live as a virgin. Moreover, the Holy Spirit, who had inspired Mary to choose virginity in view of the mystery of the Incarnation and who wanted the latter to come about in a family setting suited to the child’s growth, was quite able to instill in Joseph the ideal of virginity as well.
This summary is based on the Gospel of Luke.
Also the English translation of the Gospels don’t really catch the real meaning of the words in the original language it was written in.
However, one may respond by explaining that while a commitment to virginity was not common in ancient Judaism, it was not unheard of. The prophet Jeremiah was called by God to remain celibate (see Jer. 16:1). John the Baptist, St. Paul, and Jesus Himself remained celibate. Many members of a Jewish sect known as the Essenes practiced celibacy. There is even evidence of at least some Jewish women remaining virgins by their own decision. Therefore, while virginity was by no means a widespread religious ideal, remaining a virgin in order to serve God was not completely unheard of in the first-century Jewish world in which Mary lived. If these others willingly lived lifelong virginity, there’s no reason to exclude the possibility of Mary doing so, too.
A second question often raised is, “Why would Mary accept betrothal to Joseph if she intended to remain a virgin?” Diverse explanations have been given for this unique marriage. Perhaps since remaining a single woman was not as socially feasible in the ancient world of Judaism as it is today, marriage would have provided economic stability and social protection for Mary. Perhaps the marriage was arranged. Perhaps marriage would free Mary from other men seeking her hand in marriage and thus protect her vow. Perhaps God led Mary to marriage because in His providence, He wanted to protect her reputation for the future when she would conceive by the Holy Spirit. John Paul II pondered this question, too, and offered his own suggestion:
We can wonder why she would accept betrothal, since she had the intention of remaining a virgin forever . . . It may be presumed that at the time of their betrothal there was an understanding between Joseph and Mary about the plan to live as a virgin. Moreover, the Holy Spirit, who had inspired Mary to choose virginity in view of the mystery of the Incarnation and who wanted the latter to come about in a family setting suited to the child’s growth, was quite able to instill in Joseph the ideal of virginity as well.
This summary is based on the Gospel of Luke.
Also the English translation of the Gospels don’t really catch the real meaning of the words in the original language it was written in.
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theidler
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PRmerger
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Ah. So the way I see those verses is that it’s confirmation that Mary is Our Mother.New International Version (©1984)
I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother’s sons;
New Living Translation (©2007)
Even my own brothers pretend they don’t know me; they treat me like a stranger.
English Standard Version (©2001)
I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother’s sons.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
I have become estranged from my brothers And an alien to my mother’s sons.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
I have been a stranger to my brothers and a foreigner to the children of my mother.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I have become a stranger to my [own] brothers, a foreigner to my mother’s sons.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I have become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.
American King James Version
I am become a stranger to my brothers, and an alien to my mother’s children.
American Standard Version
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, And an alien unto my mother’s children.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I am become a stranger to my brethren, and an alien to the sons of my mother.
Darby Bible Translation
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s sons;
English Revised Version
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.
Webster’s Bible Translation
I am become a stranger to my brethren, and an alien to my mother’s children.
World English Bible
I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother’s children.
Young’s Literal Translation
A stranger I have been to my brother, And a foreigner to sons of my mother.
And finally
I have become an outcast to my kindred,
a stranger to my mother’s children.
usccb.org/bible/psalms/69/
In preparing your defense see also catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/12/does-psalm-698-proves-that-mary-had.html. IMHO he is working overtime to draw his conclusion on this to show it is a draw.
-Tina “
Now, what happens when 2 committed Christians, read the same verse and come to different conclusions? What is the recourse in your paradigm?
Incidentally, what verses show that Jesus was estranged from his brothers, these sons who apparently came from the womb of Mary?
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PRmerger
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brierpatch1974
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Well I am no expert but doesnt the bible say what the duties of a husband and a wife are? And with what the things they should do are? Then Mary and Joseph both broke every rule of what marriage is suppose to be between man and woman if they did not follow these duties. And if they were not husband and wife performing their duties to one another then why bother getting married to begin with and not live as brother and sister?
I don’t think anyone but the good lord knows the truth on the issue. Lots of ideas and opinions but no proven fact to the matter one way or another.
I don’t think anyone but the good lord knows the truth on the issue. Lots of ideas and opinions but no proven fact to the matter one way or another.
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