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Falcon8
Guest
What is the meaning that Joseph had no relations with her till after Jesus birth.
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Fauken
Guest
The same thing as Jesus said in Matthew 28:20. Is Jesus going to abandon us at the end of the age because He says “I will be with you until the end of the age”?
The answer, of course, is no.
The answer, of course, is no.
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Blizz
Guest
It only describes what happened during time before Jesus’ birth. It doesn’t say anything about what happened afterward.
See this article
See this article
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Joshua_M
Guest
It’s just how we translate it. The Greek did not imply that anything would change. Instead, it is merely a time marker used to suggest that they did not have martital relations thus far.
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Falcon8
Guest
Thx. The article helped me to understand it.
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi!
Consider what is being Taught.
Is God interested in noting the sexual/social lives of any particular person?
What is being stated is that Jesus, the Word Incarnate, was a product of God, the Holy Spirit, and the Virgin Mary–the emphasis is to demonstrate that there was no human intercourse that produced the conception in the Virgin’s womb:
Angel
Consider what is being Taught.
Is God interested in noting the sexual/social lives of any particular person?
What is being stated is that Jesus, the Word Incarnate, was a product of God, the Holy Spirit, and the Virgin Mary–the emphasis is to demonstrate that there was no human intercourse that produced the conception in the Virgin’s womb:
Maran atha!
Angel
po18guy
Well-known member
Monsignor Ronald Knox, who translated the Knox bible, in order to leave the meaning unchanged but clarify the context and purpose of that verse, framed it thus:
Q: Who subsequently guided bible Christian doctrine against the mother whom Christ created for Himself? The “woman” of Revelation 12 now gone. Who did she war against?
A: Not the Holy Spirit.
Since the “reformers” all believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, a question:
Q: Who subsequently guided bible Christian doctrine against the mother whom Christ created for Himself? The “woman” of Revelation 12 now gone. Who did she war against?
A: Not the Holy Spirit.
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PJM
Guest
Mt 1: 23-25 [23] Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [24] And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. [25] And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS"
Matt.1: [18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit
I KNOW the passage you speak of could not locate it; nevertheless here is its meaning:
THis is a metaphorical teaching in support of Luke 1:26-35; that Mary conceived from GOD the HS; NOT by Joseph. AMEN
Lk 1: 26-35
[26] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
[31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34] And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? [35] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
God Bless you
Patrick
Matt.1: [18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit
I KNOW the passage you speak of could not locate it; nevertheless here is its meaning:
THis is a metaphorical teaching in support of Luke 1:26-35; that Mary conceived from GOD the HS; NOT by Joseph. AMEN
Lk 1: 26-35
[26] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
[31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34] And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? [35] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
God Bless you
Patrick
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DaveBj
Guest
There are many expressions like that sprinkled throughout the whole Bible, that ABC would not or did not happen until XYZ happened, when it was impossible that ABC could happen after XYZ had happened. One example, from 2 Samuel 6, when David’s wife (and Saul’s daughter) Michal criticized his frenzied dancing as the Ark of the Covenant was moved into Jerusalem. Verse 23 says that she had no children until the day of her death. How many children did she have after her death?
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Francis
Guest
The Mystical City of God Sister Mary Jesus Agreda was a 17th Century Spanish nun CHAPTER VII.
HER WONDERFUL ESPOUSAL WITH SAINT JOSEPH.
Having arrived at their home in Nazareth, where the Princess of heaven had inherited the possessions and estates of her blessed parents, they were welcomed and visited by their friends and relatives with the joyful congratulations customary on such occasions. After they had in a most holy manner complied with the natural duties of friendship and politeness, and satisfied the worldly obligations connected with the conversation and intercourse of their fellowmen, the two most holy spouses, Joseph and Mary, were left at leisure and to their own counsel in their house. Custom had introduced the practice among the Hebrews, that for the first few days of their married state the husband and wife should enter upon a sort of study or trial of each others’ habits and temperament, in order that afterwards they might be able to make reciprocal allowance in their conduct one toward the other.
During this time saint Joseph said to his spouse Mary: “My spouse and Lady, I give thanks to the Lord most high God for the favor of having designed me as your husband without my merits, though I judged myself unworthy even of thy company; but his Majesty, who can raise up the lowly whenever He wishes, showed this mercy to me, and I desire and hope, relying on thy discretion and virtue, that Thou help me to make a proper return in serving Him with an upright heart. Hold me, therefore, as thy servant, and by the true love which I have for thee, I beg of thee to supply my deficiencies in the fulfillment of the domestic duties and of other things, which as a worthy husband, I should know how to perform; tell me, Lady, what is thy pleasure, in order that I may fulfill it.”
HER WONDERFUL ESPOUSAL WITH SAINT JOSEPH.
Having arrived at their home in Nazareth, where the Princess of heaven had inherited the possessions and estates of her blessed parents, they were welcomed and visited by their friends and relatives with the joyful congratulations customary on such occasions. After they had in a most holy manner complied with the natural duties of friendship and politeness, and satisfied the worldly obligations connected with the conversation and intercourse of their fellowmen, the two most holy spouses, Joseph and Mary, were left at leisure and to their own counsel in their house. Custom had introduced the practice among the Hebrews, that for the first few days of their married state the husband and wife should enter upon a sort of study or trial of each others’ habits and temperament, in order that afterwards they might be able to make reciprocal allowance in their conduct one toward the other.
During this time saint Joseph said to his spouse Mary: “My spouse and Lady, I give thanks to the Lord most high God for the favor of having designed me as your husband without my merits, though I judged myself unworthy even of thy company; but his Majesty, who can raise up the lowly whenever He wishes, showed this mercy to me, and I desire and hope, relying on thy discretion and virtue, that Thou help me to make a proper return in serving Him with an upright heart. Hold me, therefore, as thy servant, and by the true love which I have for thee, I beg of thee to supply my deficiencies in the fulfillment of the domestic duties and of other things, which as a worthy husband, I should know how to perform; tell me, Lady, what is thy pleasure, in order that I may fulfill it.”
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Francis
Guest
The heavenly Spouse heard these words with an humble heart, and yet also with a serene earnestness, and She answered the saint: “My master, I am fortunate, that the Most High, in order to place me in this state of life, has chosen thee for my husband and that He has given me such evident manifestation of his will, that I serve thee; but if thou givest me leave I will speak of my thoughts and intentions, which I wish to manifest to thee for this purpose.” The Most High forestalled the sincere and upright heart of saint Joseph with his grace and inflamed it anew with divine love through the word of most holy Mary, and he answered Her, saying: “Speak, Lady, thy servant hears.” On this occasion the Mistress of the world was surrounded by the thousand angels of her guard, in visible form. She had asked them to be present in that manner, because the Lord, in order that the most pure Virgin might act with greater grace and merit, had permitted her to feel the respect and reverence, with which She was bound to speak to her husband and left her to the natural shyness and dread, which She always felt in speaking to men alone; for She had never done this, except perhaps by accident with the highpriest.
The holy angels obeyed their Queen and, visible only to Her, stood in attendance. In this glorious company She spoke to her spouse saint Joseph, and said to him: “My lord and spouse, it is just that we give praise and glory with all reverence to our God and Creator, who is infinite in goodness and incomprehensible in his judgments. To us, who are so needy, He has manifested his greatness and mercy in choosing us for his service. I acknowledge myself among all creatures as more beholden and indebted to Him than all others, and more than all of them together; for, meriting less. I have received from his liberal hand more than they. At a tender age, being compelled thereto by the force of this truth, which, with the knowledge of the deceitfulness of visible things, his divine light made known to me, I consecrated myself to God by a perpetual vow of chastity in body and soul; his I am and Him I acknowledge as my Spouse and Lord, with fixed resolve to preserve for Him my chastity. I beseech thee, my master, to help me in fulfilling this vow, while in all other things I will be thy servant, willing to work for the comfort of thy life as long as mine shall last. Yield, my spouse, to this resolve and make a like resolve, in order that, offering ourselves as an acceptable sacrifice to our eternal God, He may receive us in the odor of sweetness and bestow on us the eternal goods for which we hope.”
The holy angels obeyed their Queen and, visible only to Her, stood in attendance. In this glorious company She spoke to her spouse saint Joseph, and said to him: “My lord and spouse, it is just that we give praise and glory with all reverence to our God and Creator, who is infinite in goodness and incomprehensible in his judgments. To us, who are so needy, He has manifested his greatness and mercy in choosing us for his service. I acknowledge myself among all creatures as more beholden and indebted to Him than all others, and more than all of them together; for, meriting less. I have received from his liberal hand more than they. At a tender age, being compelled thereto by the force of this truth, which, with the knowledge of the deceitfulness of visible things, his divine light made known to me, I consecrated myself to God by a perpetual vow of chastity in body and soul; his I am and Him I acknowledge as my Spouse and Lord, with fixed resolve to preserve for Him my chastity. I beseech thee, my master, to help me in fulfilling this vow, while in all other things I will be thy servant, willing to work for the comfort of thy life as long as mine shall last. Yield, my spouse, to this resolve and make a like resolve, in order that, offering ourselves as an acceptable sacrifice to our eternal God, He may receive us in the odor of sweetness and bestow on us the eternal goods for which we hope.”
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Francis
Guest
The most chaste spouse Joseph, full of interior joy at the words of his heavenly Spouse, answered Her: "My Mistress, in making known to me thy chaste and welcome sentiments, thou hast penetrated and dilated my heart. I have not opened my thoughts to Thee before knowing thy own. I also acknowledge myself under greater obligation to the Lord of creation than other men; for very early He has called me by his true enlightenment to love Him with an upright heart; and I desire Thee to know, Lady, that at the age of twelve years I also made a promise to serve the Most High in perpetual chastity. On this account I now gladly ratify this vow in order not to impede thy own; in the presence of his Majesty I promise to aid Thee, as far as in me lies, in serving Him and loving Him according to thy full desires. I will be, with the divine grace, thy most faithful servant and companion, and I pray Thee accept my chaste love and hold me as thy brother, without ever entertaining any other kind of love, outside the one which Thou owest to God and after God to me. In this conversation the Most High confirmed anew the virtue of chastity in the heart of saint Joseph, and the pure and holy love due to his most holy spouse Mary. This love the saint already had in an eminent degree, and the Lady herself augmented it sweetly, dilating his heart by her most prudent discourse.
By divine operation the two most holy and chaste Spouses felt an incomparable joy and consolation. The heavenly Princess, as one who is the Mistress of all virtues and who in all things pursued the highest perfection of all virtues, lovingly corresponded to the desires of saint Joseph. The Most High also gave to saint Joseph new purity and complete command over his natural inclinations, so that without hindrance or any trace of sensual desires, but with admirable and new grace, he might serve his spouse Mary, and in Her, execute his will and pleasure. They immediately set about dividing the property inherited from saint Joachim and Anne, the parents of the most holy Virgin; one part they offered to the temple, where She had stayed, another they destined for the poor, and the third was left in the hands of the holy spouse saint Joseph to be disposed of according to his judgment. Our Queen reserved for Herself only the privilege of serving Him and of attending to the household duties. For from intercourse with outsiders and from the management of property, buying or selling, the most prudent Virgin always kept aloof, as I will mention farther on.
By divine operation the two most holy and chaste Spouses felt an incomparable joy and consolation. The heavenly Princess, as one who is the Mistress of all virtues and who in all things pursued the highest perfection of all virtues, lovingly corresponded to the desires of saint Joseph. The Most High also gave to saint Joseph new purity and complete command over his natural inclinations, so that without hindrance or any trace of sensual desires, but with admirable and new grace, he might serve his spouse Mary, and in Her, execute his will and pleasure. They immediately set about dividing the property inherited from saint Joachim and Anne, the parents of the most holy Virgin; one part they offered to the temple, where She had stayed, another they destined for the poor, and the third was left in the hands of the holy spouse saint Joseph to be disposed of according to his judgment. Our Queen reserved for Herself only the privilege of serving Him and of attending to the household duties. For from intercourse with outsiders and from the management of property, buying or selling, the most prudent Virgin always kept aloof, as I will mention farther on.
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Francis
Guest
In his former life saint Joseph had learnt the trade of carpentering as being a respectable and proper way of earning the sustenance in life. He was poor in earthly possessions, as I have said above. He therefore asked his most holy Spouse, whether it was agreeable to Her, that he should exercise his trade in order to be able to serve Her and to gain something for distribution among the poor; since it was necessary to do some work and not to remain idle. The most prudent Virgin approved of this resolve, saying that the Lord did not wish them to be rich, but poor and lovers of the poor, desirous of helping them in as far as their means would allow. Then arose between the two Spouses a holy contest, who should obey the other as superior. But She, who among the humble was the most humble, won in this contest of humility; for as the man is the head of the family, She would not permit this natural order to be inverted. She desired in all things to obey her spouse saint Joseph, asking him solely for permission to help the poor, which the saint gladly gave.
As saint Joseph during these days by divine enlightenment learnt to know more and more the qualities of his spouse Mary, her rare prudence, humility, purity and all her other virtues exceeding by far his thoughts and estimates, he was seized with ever new admiration and, in great joy of spirit, continued to praise and thank the Lord again and again for having given him a Companion and Spouse so far above his merits. And in order that this work of the Most High might be entirely perfect (for it was the beginning of the greatest, which He was to execute by his Omnipotence) He ordained that the Princess of heaven, by her mere presence and intercourse, should infuse into the heart of her spouse a holy fear and reverence greater than words could ever suffice to describe. This effect was wrought upon saint Joseph by an effulgence or reflection of the divine light, which shone from the face of our Queen and which was mingled with an ineffable and always visible majesty. So much the more was this due to Her than to Moses descending from the mountain, (Exod. 24, 30) as her intercourse and conversation with God had been more extended and intimate.
As saint Joseph during these days by divine enlightenment learnt to know more and more the qualities of his spouse Mary, her rare prudence, humility, purity and all her other virtues exceeding by far his thoughts and estimates, he was seized with ever new admiration and, in great joy of spirit, continued to praise and thank the Lord again and again for having given him a Companion and Spouse so far above his merits. And in order that this work of the Most High might be entirely perfect (for it was the beginning of the greatest, which He was to execute by his Omnipotence) He ordained that the Princess of heaven, by her mere presence and intercourse, should infuse into the heart of her spouse a holy fear and reverence greater than words could ever suffice to describe. This effect was wrought upon saint Joseph by an effulgence or reflection of the divine light, which shone from the face of our Queen and which was mingled with an ineffable and always visible majesty. So much the more was this due to Her than to Moses descending from the mountain, (Exod. 24, 30) as her intercourse and conversation with God had been more extended and intimate.
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Dave!
The problem is that those who engage in such eisegesis magically correct themselves when faced with passages as you’ve pointed out… they, correctly, reason out that Michal was made barren (had not a single child) till she died and not that she miraculously had a child after her death (as in the modern cases where women are placed in a medical coma to give the child the necessary time to mature in the woman’s womb.
Their concern is simply to reject the Church’s Teaching on the Virgin’s virginity (perpetual); I’ve have had even a strong opponent opinion: ‘Joseph would not have been such a sucker as to not ever have sex with Mary…’
Sadly, to some, it is more important to win an argument against the Church than to accept God’s Own Revelation.
Maran atha!
Angel
The problem is that those who engage in such eisegesis magically correct themselves when faced with passages as you’ve pointed out… they, correctly, reason out that Michal was made barren (had not a single child) till she died and not that she miraculously had a child after her death (as in the modern cases where women are placed in a medical coma to give the child the necessary time to mature in the woman’s womb.
Their concern is simply to reject the Church’s Teaching on the Virgin’s virginity (perpetual); I’ve have had even a strong opponent opinion: ‘Joseph would not have been such a sucker as to not ever have sex with Mary…’
Sadly, to some, it is more important to win an argument against the Church than to accept God’s Own Revelation.
Maran atha!
Angel
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DaveBj
Guest
Another way to look at this follows. It is not original with me; I first read it years ago on CAF, posted by a teen-aged guy who was much wiser than his years.
Suppose that Mary was betrothed to Joseph in what was going to be a normal marriage (i.e., with the assumption that there would be physical relations after the betrothal period was completed). The Archangel Gabriel came to and said, “Fear not! You will conceive in your womb, and you will bear a son, and you will name him Jesus!” Wouldn’t Mary’s response have been something along the lines of, “That’s wonderful news! Joseph will be so happy to hear that he’s going to have a son! I can’t wait to tell him!”
Instead – well, we all know what her response was – something entirely different.
D
Suppose that Mary was betrothed to Joseph in what was going to be a normal marriage (i.e., with the assumption that there would be physical relations after the betrothal period was completed). The Archangel Gabriel came to and said, “Fear not! You will conceive in your womb, and you will bear a son, and you will name him Jesus!” Wouldn’t Mary’s response have been something along the lines of, “That’s wonderful news! Joseph will be so happy to hear that he’s going to have a son! I can’t wait to tell him!”
Instead – well, we all know what her response was – something entirely different.
D
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Benadam
Guest
I think the immediacy of what was happening, that is, the comception, meaning it no doubt wasn’t going to happen tomorrow, or in an hour or even five minutes but when she gave her consent. Also, she asks How can this be? The fact that she was about to become pregnant without a man. Who could she tell and be believed? Joseph would not be able to believe it. She wouldn’t engage in deceit. Only heaven could reveal the incarnation. All these things would contribiiute to her asking how can this Be? How could the truth of this become known?
Joseph couldn’t allow his bloodline to become polluted by another man’s line. But he couldn’t bring himself to cast her out either. Cast her into a marginilized life as an adulterous woman with child. Presumably because he knew Mary was holy. Yet how could this Be? Echoes her words. He knows she wouldn’t commit adultery.He just doesn’t have eneogh information to judge his beloved holy bride. Divorcing her privately meant a celibate life.but it was the only solution that could satisfy such a just heart as Joseph’s.
It was after being willing to divorce privately, sacrifice the marital embrace , take care of Mary and a child that was not his, that the Incarnation was revealed to him. I like to think of Joseph and Mary as both young facing the challenges of their lives united in their youth and life experience. Devoted to each other supporting one another growing together in the vows of a marital bond of a higher order. A marriage more united to heaven.
Joseph couldn’t allow his bloodline to become polluted by another man’s line. But he couldn’t bring himself to cast her out either. Cast her into a marginilized life as an adulterous woman with child. Presumably because he knew Mary was holy. Yet how could this Be? Echoes her words. He knows she wouldn’t commit adultery.He just doesn’t have eneogh information to judge his beloved holy bride. Divorcing her privately meant a celibate life.but it was the only solution that could satisfy such a just heart as Joseph’s.
It was after being willing to divorce privately, sacrifice the marital embrace , take care of Mary and a child that was not his, that the Incarnation was revealed to him. I like to think of Joseph and Mary as both young facing the challenges of their lives united in their youth and life experience. Devoted to each other supporting one another growing together in the vows of a marital bond of a higher order. A marriage more united to heaven.
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po18guy
Well-known member
Let us examine two women - neither of which were expecting to have even a single child: Elizabeth and Mary. One old and one young. One married and one betrothed. One predestined to carry the precursor to the Messiah, the other to bear the Messiah Himself.
The Archangel Gabriel appeared as God’s messenger (Angel means messenger) in both instances. First, to Zechariah as he burnt the incense in the temple.
But, Zechariah is the biological father of John and was so addressed. The Holy Spirit conceived of Jesus in Mary’s womb and so Gabriel addressed Mary directly, and not Joseph, since Joseph would be our Lord’s foster father. John being a natural child and Jesus being the Hypostatic Union.
Gabriel advised of a single child in each case - “a son.” Nowhere in scripture is any other child of Elizabeth alluded to. Neither is anywhere in scripture any other child of Mary alluded to. Both were told by God through Gabriel that they would have “a son” - singular. Singular sons for a singular purpose of God.
Not a family and not brothers and sisters. Sons. The ‘brothers and sisters’ of Jesus were very clearly those of Galilee who accompanied Him, since that is precisely how they were called from the same tribe of Israel or of the same geographical area.
The Archangel Gabriel appeared as God’s messenger (Angel means messenger) in both instances. First, to Zechariah as he burnt the incense in the temple.
Then, the Archangel Gabriel appeared to Mary and addressed her.
Notice that the same Archangel, addressing the same act of God, spoke the words exactly as God intended, as angels wills are perfectly formed to God. Gabriel used identical language in both cases. To Zechariah: Your wife Elizabeth “will bear you a son” and “you shall call his name John.” To Mary, Gabriel said “You will conceive and bear a son” and “You shall call His Name Jesus.” Gabriel also provided, and commanded them to use the names which God Himself had chosen.
But, Zechariah is the biological father of John and was so addressed. The Holy Spirit conceived of Jesus in Mary’s womb and so Gabriel addressed Mary directly, and not Joseph, since Joseph would be our Lord’s foster father. John being a natural child and Jesus being the Hypostatic Union.
Gabriel advised of a single child in each case - “a son.” Nowhere in scripture is any other child of Elizabeth alluded to. Neither is anywhere in scripture any other child of Mary alluded to. Both were told by God through Gabriel that they would have “a son” - singular. Singular sons for a singular purpose of God.
Not a family and not brothers and sisters. Sons. The ‘brothers and sisters’ of Jesus were very clearly those of Galilee who accompanied Him, since that is precisely how they were called from the same tribe of Israel or of the same geographical area.
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