MATTHEW 16: 17 - 19, "The Rock"!

[Vincent]

Sei:

The traditions talked about in 2 Thess are the traditions the apostles taught in there books and epistles. Look at what the purpose of Thess was. It was a letter, to a church, consisting of believers. Were any of the catholic traditions already in place at that time? No. So what other traditions could he have meant when he said that but the traditions already taught.

How about the Tradition that 3rd John is inspired? As far as we can tell it was written after Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians and it nowhere says in the Bible that “3rd John is inspired”. But we accept it as inspired, alright.

And if the pope is infallible, why were these verses written?

The verses you’ve provided do well to undermine the Popes being sinless. But that’s not what papal infallibility means and the Catholic Church doesn’t claim that the Popes are sinless.

If the pope is the vicar of christ, then wouldn’t they have many simularities?

Vicar is used in the sense of “ambassador” (2 Corinthians 2:20). So yes, there are going to be similarties, but just because you won’t necessarily look like Jesus that you can’t be an ambassador for him. You would (I hope) consider yourself an ambassador for Christ, even if you use the Internet, which many poor people can’t afford to use.

And what about praying, bowing down to, and worshiping not only the pope but to saints and Mary and even statues?

There’s nothing wrong in itself with bowing before other people. Jacob himself bowed before Esau seven times in Genesis 33:3. And Esau is made in the image of God, to boot. And don’t worry, the Catholic Church doesn’t give the Pope or any other human being the honor that is due to God alone.

“Thou shalt not make unto thee ***any graven image, ***or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:” Exodus 20:4

“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God…” Exodus 20:5

Giving the honor due to God alone is the point of those verses, not just making images. Otherwise your argument would imply that God contradicts Himself by commanding the Israelites just five chapters later to make images of Cherubim, which is are likenesses of things that are “in the heaven above.”

And you can’t say that praying to a saint or mary is for mediation because of this verse:

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, ***the man Christ Jesus;” ***1 Timothy 2:5

To “pray” to to the saints in Catholic lingo means to ask our brethren in Christ in Heaven to pray with us and for us to God. We can do this precisely because Christ is the one Mediator.

 

[mercygate]

Sei:

And if the pope is infallible, why were these verses written?

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10
. . . And the pope wants you to call him holy? Then what about this verse?

Show me where it says the Pope wants us to call him holy. I guess you would have a point in citing those scriptures if infallibility meant “impeccability” – being incapable of sin. But it doesn’t. The Pope is infallible only when teaching on matters of faith and morals in his role as pastor and teacher of all the faithful. The Pope is NOT “impeccable” — free from sin.

But this is what the bible says:

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” John 14:26

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth…" John 16:13

One of the ways the Holy Spirit guides and teaches is through the teaching authority of the Church.

Why does the pope control one of the wealthiest corporations in the world when Jesus never controlled great wealth? Why is the pope dressed in regal garments when Jesus dressed as a common man? Why does the pope live in lavish sourangings while Jesus lived a simple life? Why does the pope travel on his private jet to meet with leaders when Jesus spent his time serving the people?

Try to shepherd a community of a billion people without resources.

Why is the pope worshiped and adorned by millions when Jesus was hated and eventually killed for speaking the truth?

Worshiped? By the way, the first 14 popes were martyred for their faith. And the false assumptions and slurs you have introduced here are murderous in spirit.

Why does the pope love the glory and praise of men

Come again? You seem to be privy to a great deal of personal information about the Holy Father’s soul.

The other points you make in your post have been addressed on other threads. Join us there.

 

[Sei]

“To “pray” to to the saints in Catholic lingo means to ask our brethren in Christ in Heaven to pray with us and for us to God. We can do this precisely because Christ is the one Mediator.”

Call me an idiot but I thought that asking for someone to pray for you to God would be mediating. So how is that fine if Jesus is the only mediator? You just flat out said that you pray to saints asking them to pray for you to God and then said that wasn’t mediating… alrighty.

And this one really got me:
“Show me where it says the Pope wants us to call him holy.”
“Come again? You seem to be privy to a great deal of personal information about the Holy Father’s soul.”

Didn’t you just call him the “Holy Father”?.. I won’t go there I guess because if that isn’t blatant I don’t know what is…

And talk about resources. The pope and people close to him live in complete luxury. Tell me why it’s needed for them to have all the riches they have? Explain the need for the riches in this quote from a magazine:

The fabulous treasure of Lourdes (France], whose existence was kept secret by the Catholic Church for 120 years, has been unveiled… Rumours have been circulating for decades about a priceless collection of gold chalices, diamond-studded crucifixes [a far cry from the bloodstained cross on which Christ died], silver and precious stones donated by grateful pilgrims.
After an indiscreet remark by their press spokesman this week, church authorities agreed to reveal part of the collection … [some] floor-to-ceiling cases were opened to reveal 59 solid gold chalices alongside rings, crucifixes, statues and heavy gold brooches, many encrusted with precious stones.
Almost hidden by the other treasures is the “Crown” of Notre Dame de Lourdes, made by a Paris goldsmith in 1876 and studded with diamonds.
Church authorities say they cannot put a value on the collection. “I have no idea,” says Father Pierre-Marie Charriez, director of Patrimony and Sanctuaries. “it is of inestimable value.”…
Across the road is a building housing hundreds of [antique] ecclesiastical garments, robes, mitres and sashes — many in heavy gold thread…
“The Church itself is poor,” insists Father Charriez. “The Vatican itself is poor.” [The treasure described here is only part of that which is kept in one location, the small town of Lourdes, France!]
The European, April 9-12, 1992. p. 1.

So those “resources” are needed for the outreach of the church, right?

 

[Vincent]

Sei:

Call me an idiot but I thought that asking for someone to pray for you to God would be mediating. So how is that fine if Jesus is the only mediator? You just flat out said that you pray to saints asking them to pray for you to God and then said that wasn’t mediating… alrighty.

Then you’re saying that Paul was infringing on Christ’s One Mediatorship by asking his readers to pray for him in I Thess 5:25.

So those “resources” are needed for the outreach of the church, right?

Is there something wrong with giving God the very best of your time, talent and treasure? The Magi gave the Christ Child gifts that are way beyond most people’s means. And God certainly appreciated it for the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple.

 

[Sei]

No, Paul asked for believers to pray for him. Catholics pray to dead people asking them to pray to God for them. There’s a difference there. And about the wealth, what is the Catholic church doing with all that wealth? And what is the point in having so much riches? Didn’t God say to stack your riches in heaven and not on earth?

 

[RobedWithLight]

Sei:

No, Paul asked for believers to pray for him. Catholics pray to dead people asking them to pray to God for them. There’s a difference there.

Are not the dead, believers in Christ as well? Are not the saints who died as martyrs for Christ, and in Christ believers still, in the next life? If they were believers in this life, then more so in the next, where they are in the presence and glory of God Himself!

Gerry

 

[RobedWithLight]

Sei:

And this one really got me:
“Show me where it says the Pope wants us to call him holy.”
“Come again? You seem to be privy to a great deal of personal information about the Holy Father’s soul.”

Didn’t you just call him the “Holy Father”?.. I won’t go there I guess because if that isn’t blatant I don’t know what is…

My friend, there is a difference between the Pope “commanding” us to call him holy, and us freely calling the Pope as “holy”.

Gerry

 

[RobedWithLight]

Sei:

And what is the point in having so much riches? Didn’t God say to stack your riches in heaven and not on earth?

In Genesis, Abraham was described as a very wealthy man when he was alive, and he remained wealthy until his death, yet Abraham was considered a very good and just man who feared God. Was Abraham wrong in this respect? Is possessing material riches so wrong?

Gerry

 

[Sei]

But you’re not praying for them anymore, you’re praying to them. There’s a big difference there. That would be mediating, when you pray to them. Since they’re dead you can’t pray for them anymore.

And that’s great if you want to call him holy, but you’re going against God:

"Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy…" Revelation 15:4

 

[RobedWithLight]

Sei:

But you’re not praying for them anymore, you’re praying to them. There’s a big difference there. That would be mediating, when you pray to them. Since they’re dead you can’t pray for them anymore.

And that’s great if you want to call him holy, but you’re going against God:

"Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy…" Revelation 15:4

We are asking the saints for them to pray to God for us, just as Paul asked his fellows to pray to God for him[Paul].

And what is the problem if we call the Pope holy? Calling the Pope holy does not take away God’s essential holiness, for we still accept that all holiness comes from God. If the Pope is holy, we acknowledge likewise that that is only by God’s grace. I call my biological father as father, though I acknowledge one supreme Father in heaven.

Gerry

 

[Sei]

But the difference is that these people you pray to are dead. You can’t go and talk to them and ask them to pray to God for you. You’re praying to them so that they can be the mediator between you and God, because you’re asking them to go to God for you. Why do you need someone else to go to God for you when He told you to go directly to Him? The scriptrues say there is only one mediator between God and man, who is Christ Jesus. Jesus is God so you are told to go directly to God. Why is that so hard to comprehend? And again, scriptures say that ONLY God is holy. That would mean that NO ONE else is holy. Calling anyone else holy would be calling God a liar. Did he say “no one else is holy, except the pope”?

 

[Vincent]

Sei:

No, Paul asked for believers to pray for him. Catholics pray to dead people asking them to pray to God for them.

Earlier you wrote, “Call me an idiot but I thought that asking for someone to pray for you to God would be mediating.” To use your reasoning, since Paul was “asking someone to pray for [him] to God”, then Paul was definitely was getting involved in mediation-- the kind you think violates Christ’s One Mediatorship. Whether they’re in Heaven or on Earth is inconsequential to your argument, since the operative term is “someone”.

And about the wealth, what is the Catholic church doing with all that wealth? And what is the point in having so much riches? Didn’t God say to stack your riches in heaven and not on earth?

The Catholic Church doesn’t possess wealth for the sake of wealth. Giving your best to God in praising him is a noble thing. God didn’t stop the Israelites from providing the best acacia wood and gold for the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[Sei]

Vincent, read my post right above yours. I guess just try to read everything before responding.

 

[RobedWithLight]

Sei:

But the difference is that these people you pray to are dead. You can’t go and talk to them and ask them to pray to God for you. You’re praying to them so that they can be the mediator between you and God, because you’re asking them to go to God for you. Why do you need someone else to go to God for you when He told you to go directly to Him? The scriptrues say there is only one mediator between God and man, who is Christ Jesus. Jesus is God so you are told to go directly to God. Why is that so hard to comprehend? And again, scriptures say that ONLY God is holy. That would mean that NO ONE else is holy. Calling anyone else holy would be calling God a liar. Did he say “no one else is holy, except the pope”?

If they are dead, their souls do not remain dead inside their graves as well, for there is in us something that is never destroyed by death, but survives the corruption of the physical body. The dead, are not truly dead, but undergoes judgment. Otherwise, what then is judged?

Hence we can only conclude that the martyrs, the bishops, and all who confessed Christ, who had died, are alive with Christ! Who do you think are those elders in white described in Revelation are?

Now, why do you think Paul asked his fellows to pray for him, when Paul could just as easily pray to the Father directly, free of charge?

Gerry

 

[Sei]

Paul did pray to the father, free of charge. He also asked personally if other believers could keep him in their prayers. Do you think that the saints and the bishops and such can hear your prayers? Are they omnipresent and omnipotent upon death? Or are they in heaven, which is a completely differnet place than earth? Why do you think we’re told to pray directly to God? Because He’s the only one that can hear our prayers, being God who is omnipresent and omnipotent. Any mediator that isn’t God is pointless because how would they even hear your prayers? Maybe thats why the scriptures said “For there is one God, and *one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” *1 Timothy 2:5

 

[Vincent]

Sei:

Vincent, read my post right above yours. I guess just try to read everything before responding.

I did actually, but none of your responses addressed the problem in your premise: “…asking for someone to pray for you to God would be mediating.”

If you asked me to pray for you, then your premise would lead us to think that you are getting involved in mediating. The conclusion is inescapable.

Here’s something else that might help:

Etymologically speaking, “to pray” means, “to ask.”

 

[Sei]

Read what I said in later posts. Maybe earlier it was unclear but theres an obvious distinction between asking someone who is currently alive to keep you in their prayers and praying to someone who is dead and asking them to talk to God for you. That latter part is what mediating is, not the first part, because they are completely different.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Sei:

Read what I said in later posts. Maybe earlier it was unclear but theres an obvious distinction between asking someone who is currently alive to keep you in their prayers and praying to someone who is dead and asking them to talk to God for you. That latter part is what mediating is, not the first part, because they are completely different.

To say they are dead you are denying the ressurection of Christ.Christians do not cease being a member of the body of Christ at the time of their bodily death.Jesus made the distinction when he brought the little girl back from bodily death he said she was sleeping.In contrast the young man who wanted to follow Jesus asked him if he could go bury his dad first,and he told him let the dead bury the dead.God Bless

 

[Sei]

You’re completely avoiding my point. Ok, their physical bodies are dead but they are alive in Christ, fine. My point is you can’t ask them anymore to pray for you on your behalf. They are in heaven and they are not omnopotent and omnipresent. God is the only one that hears prayers. By praying to a person in heaven, you are asking for them to mediate your prayer to God and God said that Jesus was the only mediator.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Sei:

You’re completely avoiding my point. Ok, their physical bodies are dead but they are alive in Christ, fine. My point is you can’t ask them anymore to pray for you on your behalf. They are in heaven and they are not omnopotent and omnipresent. God is the only one that hears prayers. By praying to a person in heaven, you are asking for them to mediate your prayer to God and God said that Jesus was the only mediator.

Oh, on the contrary I am not avoiding your point,they pray and intercede with Jesus on our behalf.While your in scripture read revelations and the prayers of the Saints rising to the throne of God like incense.God Bless