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mark_a
Guest
It seems odd that Jesus would give the keys to the kingdom to a little rock.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
What would we do without convoluted and bizzare theories?
I don’t want to get y’all upset, but I have a friend who has a theory that in those days the sun came up in the west, so Jesus actually lived in Sweet Home, Alabama, and what He said was “Hey, Pete! Let’s rock!”
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Milliardo
Guest
Sola Fide is trying his best to discredit the fact that Jesus spoke in Aramaic, yet even most Protestant Bible scholars agree He spoke in Aramaic. Nice try, but no go–being in denial doesn’t work here.
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juliamajor
Guest
Sounds Good to me!!What would we do without convoluted and bizzare theories?
I don’t want to get y’all upset, but I have a friend who has a theory that in those days the sun came up in the west, so Jesus actually lived in Sweet Home, Alabama, and what He said was “Hey, Pete! Let’s rock!”
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peary
Guest
’Petros’ does not mean “small stone.” It means “rock.” In Greek, you cannot use ‘petra’ as Peter’s name because petra is feminine. You cannot use ‘petra’ as a masculine name. So, Jesus is definitely changing Simon’s name to ‘Peter.’ We know this because other places in the bible use the Aramaic ‘Kepha’ when reference to Peter, and Kepha means 'Rock.'
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savedsinner
Guest
Aramaic and Hebrew are very close, but I have heard that at the time of Jesus, Hebrew was the liturgical language, while Aramaic was the common spoken language of the people.
So when Jesus read the scriptures in the synagogue, he would have read Hebrew, but when he spoke to his disciples, he would have spoken Aramaic.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
And in neither Aramaic nor Hebrew does the “little rock, big rock” pun work.
But if my friend’s theory is correct, and Jesus lived in Sweet Home, Alabama, He could have meant He was going to Arkansas and said, “Hey, Big Rock, let’s go to Little Rock.”
po18guy
Well-known member
It’s all in the translation. Just Google “KJV Translation errors” and see what happens: google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=kjv+translation+errors&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Seems like the Greek is favored by Protestants, as it tends toward their interpretation. However, “Salvation is of the Jews” and they spoke Aramaic at the time. Notice that “The Passion Of The Christ” was not done in Greek…
Christ’s peace.
po18guy
Well-known member
Let’s look at the NT in context. Look at Peter’s authority throughout. Look at what Peter actually did as signs of faith and authority (walked on water, raised the dead, held sins bound [Acts 5], proclaimed all foods clean, etc.). Did Christ keep the keys to the Kingdom? No, He gave them to Cepha/Kepha/Simon bar Jonah. Luther’s translation is contorted.
Christ’s peace.
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bogeydogg
Guest
Of course Jesus spoke Aramaic. The language when written is very similar to Syriac and was probably picked up by the Babylonians because at one time Babylon was a liege state of the Assyrian Empire. That is why portions of Daniel are written in Aramaic and not just Hebrew. As far as post-exhilic prophets writing in Hebrew that should not be surprising that they were all priests involved in temple service. Using the Hebrew of these men to say that the commercial language of Judea was Hebrew would be akin to saying that Germans spoke Latin in the sixteenth century because Luther wrote Bondage of the Will in Latin.
Once Alexander conquered Persia Greek became the commercial language but by that time Aramaic was so thoroughly engrained that it would have remained the common if not liturgical tongue.
It is also worth noting that when the Gospel writers quoted Scripture they were quoting LXX. That is why, at least it my understanding, that minor discrepancies exist between the verses rendered as quotations in the NT and the verses in the OT because in Protestant Bibles anyway the OT is derived from the Masoretic texts which have minor changes from the LXX. So Jesus probably spoke Greek as well as Hebrew and Aramaic.
BTW, that is an error in the Passion, Pilate speaks to the crowd in Latin rather than Greek. It’s not impossible but not likely either.
Once Alexander conquered Persia Greek became the commercial language but by that time Aramaic was so thoroughly engrained that it would have remained the common if not liturgical tongue.
It is also worth noting that when the Gospel writers quoted Scripture they were quoting LXX. That is why, at least it my understanding, that minor discrepancies exist between the verses rendered as quotations in the NT and the verses in the OT because in Protestant Bibles anyway the OT is derived from the Masoretic texts which have minor changes from the LXX. So Jesus probably spoke Greek as well as Hebrew and Aramaic.
BTW, that is an error in the Passion, Pilate speaks to the crowd in Latin rather than Greek. It’s not impossible but not likely either.
Actually, the pun works even better in Aramaic, because the word for “rock” has no particular gender distinction. The Aramaic word is kepha for rock (Greek petra), evna for stone (analogous to the Greek lithos).
You can see the pun in John’s Gospel and the writings of St. Paul when he refers to Peter as Kephas (Greek rendering of the Aramaic). Since Jesus was most likely speaking Aramaic (the other posters are correct; Hebrew had since been limited to liturgical use by then and Aramaic was the common language of Palestine), he essentially said, “You are Kepha, and upon this kepha, I will build my Church…”
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pete_29
Guest
It is my understanding That the petra petros argument is to use the feminine form to describe Peter and the stronger masculine form to describe the Rock upon which Jesus built His Church, insinuating that Peter was not this Rock. My point is that if Aramaic or Hebrew only have one word for rock, then surely Peter is the Rock upon which Jesus built His Church.
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Arnobius
Guest
Well, actually it is the Petros for Peter because it is the Masculine form.
In Greek the verses of Matthew 16:18-19 read
18 Κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω, ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾍδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς. 19 Καὶ δώσω σοὶ τὰς κλεῖς τῆς βασιλείας τῶν οὐρανῶν· καὶ ὃ ἐὰν δήσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ἔσται δεδεμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς· καὶ ὃ ἐὰν λύσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ἔσται λελυμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς
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pete_29
Guest
Ah, so it is, but doesn’t it still try to separate Peter from being the Rock upon which Jesus built His Church by using two forms of the same word, and by using the Aramaic word kephas in both places, doesn’t that indicate that the two were the same.
Thanks for correcting my mistake.:)
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Evna is to petra as rope is to line.
Which is exactly what the Gospels say – Peter is the rock on which the Church is built.
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