Matthew 16:18 controversy

  • Thread starter Thread starter tgGodsway
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Please define “mother” church from scripture. And yes, the Church does interpret scripture all day long. Some get it right and some use poor hermeneutic interpretations.
 
You have no advantage over me and my views are Catholic just as much as yours, in that they are shared around the world. Your judgment of me and my theology is based on your perception and understanding of theology itself. So what! I have never claimed to know it all. Actually I am a student of scripture and have a few good mentors. I glean from many sources within the Church to learn more and more. Just because you don’t agree with them doesn’t make it NOT valid or NOT of God. The Spirit of God is upon me, and has been, since the day I was filled in the holy Spirit during the Mass at holy Rosary Catholic Church in 1981. He’s never left me since.
 
Last edited:
What about the Words of Christ? Did you read the litany in the post above? Incontrovertible, undeniable, irrefutable BIBLICAL PROOF that Peter was chosen by Christ to be chief among the Apostles. To argue otherwise is to depart from reality.

So, don’t be Catholic, OK? But don’t shred the bible and twist it into a pretzel.
 
I’m gonna point out something really simple here. I understand there’s a lot of controversy about whether “Kephas” and all this stuff is translated right… but quite frankly, that isn’t even what shows us that He did in fact give Peter the keys of the kingdom. Think of this way, If were to say to you “Dude, you are blessed with guitar skills. And I’m saying to you right now that you are “The Guitarist”, and on this “Guitarist” i will build my band.”
NOW, i know if this was said to me (i play guitar btw lol) then i would definitely without a doubt know that i was told i will be the main strength if the band. NOW< lets look at what Jesus said. “Blessed are you Simon… and i say unto you, you are Peter (Rock), and upon this ROCK i will build my Church. And i will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…” ITS THE SAME. So whether its BIG ROCK, or SMALL ROCK, it does not really matter, because Jesus has clearly stated a special purpose Peter that was most definitely evident in the Book of Acts AND the Early Church writings… AMEN.
 
Please define “mother” church from scripture. And yes, the Church does
interpret scripture all day long. Some get it right and some use poor
hermeneutic interpretations.
Click to expand...
No! You find where Christ taught bible alone. PLEASE. We don’t have to find every belief in the bible because everything that Jesus did IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. Hello? Read John 20 and 21, for goodness’s sake.

Did Jesus grant the Apostles the power of binding and loosing? Hint: It’s in the bible.
 
I partially agree. But please connect the theological dots for me with the small metaphor called the “keys.” I agree that Peter was given keys to the kingdom of heaven to bind and loose. We can argue for hours what it means to bind and loose but this small figure of speech has no other reference in the New Testament. This is troubling to me if you are trying to build doctrine. Doctrine is never built on one verse of scripture. It is always a network of checks and balances from scripture.

Secondly, without explanation, this ability given to bind and loose was repeated again by Jesus in chapter 18 to all disciples. So let me get this straight. Peter was given special keys to bind and loose, but apparently all of His disciples, (not yet apostles) were also encouraged to bind and loose. This instruction, interestingly, was in the context of a sinning brother who would not repent. He’s taken before the Church but eventually he goes before two or three witnesses. In this context Jesus brings up “binding and loosening” as part of the context.

How does this passage translate into the idea that the keys were actually a reserved authority given only to Peter above and beyond all other apostles in the form of a superior office known as the papacy? to which resulted in the creation of a chain of popes in each generation to be installed? How did you guys get all of that from this obscure verse in Matthew? Not to mention to practice of binding and loosening was obviously not just for PETER. Please go very slow and make the theological dots valid through inspired scripture.
 
Last edited:
I understand and i ran into the same issue (not long ago as i am a new Catholic 🙂 YAY), HOWEVER, my dear Brother, let me break something down in a way that has helped me tremendously understand certain things Jesus said.

There are many in the protestant world who claim that John 20 (When Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins) is just a way of Him saying “Oh by the way, if you forgive somebody for the wrong they do to you, they are forgiven.” BUT Jesus clearly already stated during the Beatitudes that we must forgive one another. Here in John 20, he wasn’t merely reiterating. He specifically said it to them separately and after the Sermon on The Mount. WAAY after that was established. (And plus he said “As the Father sent me, i send you…” Therefore that is irrefutable… Not trying to start a conversation about the priesthood or anything, but that’s an example BECAUSE Just like you said… JESUS said to the other Apostles that whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven… However He said it separately and specifically to Peter at this time RIGHT after saying “Upon this rock i will build my church…” Therefore again we see Jesus stating something similar to things he said before… BUT to a different Individual/Individuals. IF that doesn’t help, then there is something else i would like to bring up that is slightly off topic BUT has helped me accept things recently as i am in RCIA and its been kinda scary converting… but again its helped me and if you would like me to share, please let me know. AND YES ITS SCRIPTURE I WILL SHARE… lol Peace and Love Brother AND btw, i have plenty of experience being a KJV sola scipturist and can attest that that is no way to live Brother, Truly With Love
 
Last edited:
The Pope is the head man that Christ put in charge of His Church. (Matthew 16)

In the Sacrament of Confession, when a priest absolves us of our sins, he is loosing us from them, but he is not the Pope. (Matthew 18)

The Church has many DIFFERENT members, but we (obviously) do not all do the same thing. (1 Corinthians 12; Romans 12)

And, please remember, the Church PREDATED the New Testament. Ergo, it did not have to check with Scripture before it administered the Sacraments, as they were already in place and being practiced when the canon of the Christian Holy Bible was determined by God through His Church - which, despite the efforts of some - has preserved and kept it intact since its completion.
 
ALSO. The keys of the Kingdom are very special (Knowledge, wisdom and understanding…) However, outside of those fruits, its much deeper than that… You see, Whenever Jesus mentions those Keys, he also says the “Binding and Loosing” stuff… Therefore we clearly see a connection with the keys and the binding/loosing. If the Pope excommunicates someone (On just grounds of course) than that is decreed in Heaven. JUST LIKE the incident we see in 1 Corinthians Chapter 5, where Paul tells them to gather and cast a man unto Satan. Yes i know Pual was never Pope, but still we see the power and KEYS at work :D! Pretty cool huh? And SO, Like i said, Peter was given a specific and special access to these Keys and therefore has special access and use to them as Pope. PLUS again… the early church honored the Chair of Peter 🙂
 
The keys are a direct reference to Isaiah:
Isaiah 22:20-24
20 In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,
21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
23 And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house.
24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons.
Click to expand...
Matthew 16:18-19
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Click to expand...
Jesus is a Davidic king, placing the keys of the kingdom and the power of His authority on Peter. Why is this so hard to grasp?

You are tripping over the rock and missing the keys 😉
 
Last edited:
Its hard to grasp because the American Christian world has unfortunately become quite deluded with westernized and “enlightened” thinking… The Bible is so misused… its sad. I mean, if your on an island and only have the bible, of course God will help you with it… But if your in society and clearly see His Church being describe in this Bible, then youve got some stuff to think about 🙂 Plus America is plagued with a spirit of rebellion…which is mostly how its law was founded…
 
BTW guys… Glad some other hopefully experienced Catholics are here… Like i said im becoming very accepting… But im curious… Why Is Mary considered a dispenser of Graces? Have i understood this wrong? My RCIA people say that God only gives the grace…But what does it mean then when its said that Mary gives grace? Kinda concerns me honestly… As i also feel that some people pray to Jesus through Mary (Not saying intercessions wrong) but i mean in the sense that some have made it out as Father, Son, and Mary…which kinda scares me… idk. Replies are much appreciated 🙂
 
Anyone who makes such claims as “Father, Son, and Mary” is incorrect…

That is definitely NOT the teaching of the Church, nor could it be because it is 100% bogus.

And, we do not know all the blessings that God has bestowed on the saints in Heaven. So whatever Mary and others can do, it would only be because God gave them the ability to do it, which IS His call to make.
 
i see… so how exactly does she give graces then? >>>> Ive heard of Popes and others saying this stuff and i kinda get it truly, just as Paul suffered for the grace of the church… But still, how does mary do that ya know? lol Does it mean she prays we get the graces?
 
You may want to start a separate thread on this, and there are several already in existence, but this should get you started:



https://www.catholic.com/co-redemptrix-and-mediatrix

www.catholic.com

Can You Help Me Resolve My Difficulties with Marian Doctrines?

It will help if you understand what the Church means by such doctrines and what it does not mean. First, the Church recognizes that Jesus in the ultimate sense...
www.catholic.com www.catholic.com

https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm

https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marymenu.htm

 
LOL i was thinking the same thing… a new thread i much needed I appreciate the answers God Bless… Feel like the meaning of this thread kinda died out :confused:
 
sainteriksrose said:
“It is a proven science but it had taken the church a long time to understand it’s importance. It is not some kind of Divine authority but finding the truth is a Divine mandate.”

++++

The Church was founded BEFORE the text quoting Jesus saying He was building one that would bind and loose on earth AND in Heaven, and BEFORE it was written down and determined to be included in the New Testament. Meaning, the Church existed and pre-dated the New Testament, and understood its duties which officially began on the first Pentecost.

Why would anyone think Jesus would build a Church that would not know how or what to teach on His behalf? That would mean it would not know how to bind and loose, forgive and retain, etc. - as we clearly read in Scripture that He commanded it to do - saying not only that hell would not prevail against His Church, but also that He would be with us always. (Matthew 16, 18; John 20; Matthew 28)
Click to expand...
Our God is not a God of confusion.
tgGodsway said:
Church has never been about buildings and hierarchical Roman institutions. It has never been about select and privileged people in high places dictating to the world what God has to say. It is the opposite.
Click to expand...
Mother Church does not dictate what God has to say. Mother Church explains what God has said. You don’t accuse a history teacher of dictating what Abraham Lincoln had to say when the teacher quotes the Gettysburg Address.
 
Last edited:
tgGodsway said:
Please define “mother” church from scripture. And yes, the Church does interpret scripture all day long. Some get it right and some use poor hermeneutic interpretations.
Click to expand...
Define it from Scripture? The New Testament did not yet exist for hundreds of years after Christ founded His church. The elements of it–the written Gospels, the Book of Acts, the letters we now call the Epistles-- did exist. They were written one at a time over the next fifty years or so. But these writings were not compiled into the canon of the New Testament for centuries. And when they were it was the organization headed by the appointed successors of the Apostles, led by the appointed successor of Peter, who compiled it.

You wish to quote Scripture about who belongs to the Church? The Church gave you that Scripture. The Church defined which writings are part of Scripture.

And oh yes, there are people who wrongly interpret Scripture. This is why God gave us a reliable authority, guided by the Holy Spirit as Christ said it would be, to correctly interpret Scripture for us. Our God is not a God of confusion. He gave us a single authority to teach and guide us. May He be praised forever for this.
 
Last edited:
JesusReigns said:
BTW guys… Glad some other hopefully experienced Catholics are here… Like i said im becoming very accepting… But im curious… Why Is Mary considered a dispenser of Graces? Have i understood this wrong? My RCIA people say that God only gives the grace…But what does it mean then when its said that Mary gives grace? Kinda concerns me honestly… As i also feel that some people pray to Jesus through Mary (Not saying intercessions wrong) but i mean in the sense that some have made it out as Father, Son, and Mary…which kinda scares me… idk. Replies are much appreciated 🙂
Click to expand...
God alone gives the grace.

God chooses to allow Mary the mother of Christ the privilege of distributing His graces to His children. She acts with His permission and so acts with the authority He gives her. The authority remains His alone.

Here’s an analogy.
John Doe, multimillionaire, decides to give a million dollars to charity.
He tells his mother: “Hey Mom, I want you to decide where some of this money goes. You tell me which charities you think should have some and I’ll do as you ask.”
Whose money is it? Who is it who decided to give it away? By what right does John’s mother say: “All right, you get a thousand and you get a hundred and you get two thousand”?

Clearly John Doe is in charge, not his mother. Anything she does is by her son’s permission.
So God is in charge, and anything the Virgin Mary does is by His will and permission.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top