Matthew 16:18 controversy

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The Church did not give us the scriptures, the Spirit of the living God was the only one who knew what was inspired and what was not. He DID worked through members of the Church, to make that happen, but He got the credit alone, not because of any human being. He could have used a donkey.

God did give us authority (but it was not singular as you suppose) to properly interpret scriptures. This authority work through those in Christ who have, with all diligence, and under the leadership of the Spirit, interpret properly. It has never been a select group, in a select system or denomination, for a select few. But before the ink could dry, it was called the word of God.

But interpreting scripture is a science of common sense rules that for centuries did not exist and we have paid the price for it today.
 
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Thank you for your kind approach but I’m not sure what you are trying to say to me. The forgiving and retaining of sins was not just for the apostles. The passage you quoted in John 20 is also in Luke. In Luke’s gospel we learn that the disciples were not the only ones present when Jesus breathed on them and commanded them to receive the Holy Spirit. Matthew narrated about how the two on the road to Emmaus came back and found the 11 disciples
“… and those who were with them gathered.” Lu. 24:33.

Though Luke does not record everything John recorded, he does record Christ’ declaration of peace and the result of the giving of the Spirit. “their minds were open and they understood the scriptures.” The point is we don’t know how many believers, above and beyond the 11 disciples were there, but the disciples alone were not the only ones to receive all that God did that night. That includes the forgiveness and retaining forgiveness of sins.

God is no respecter of persons. He gives grace to all. He gives authority to all. He gives the command to obey, to all. His love is given to all.

But I still am not sure what you were trying to say.
Blessings,
 
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What are you talking about, have you not read Psalms 119 the SUM of.thy word.is truth?.NASV Add all the parts together on any given subject, and you arrive at a truth. This is a very basic starting point. Ignorance poisons.
 
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You have not answered my specific question of how the word of.God through the mouth of the New Testament defines these things in the way that you do? Please connect these very specific dots of theology using the Word of God.
 
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After the Apostles and all 1st century disciples died, the church had to rely on their writings. Not all could put the puzzle together in each generation. Rome wanted sole interpretation of scripture which was intended for all to read and interpret as the holy spirit led them. But the masses of people for.centuries was denied this gift. A wonderful Reformation with a printing press paved the way for all people to have the word of God in their hand. But it wasn’t free, many paid with their blood.
 
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tgGodsway said:
The Church did not give us the scriptures, the Spirit of the living God was the only one who knew what was inspired and what was not. He DID worked through members of the Church, to make that happen, but He got the credit alone, not because of any human being. He could have used a donkey…
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Of course God gave us the scriptures. That was never at issue. We’re arguing about how to interpret scripture and who has authority to do so.
God did give us authority (but it was not singular as you suppose) to properly interpret scriptures. This authority work through those in Christ who have, with all diligence, and under the leadership of the Spirit, interpret properly
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But how do we know who these diligent people are, if there is no objective sign to point to them? If tgGodsway, Zaccheus, Johnny Scholar and Edward Evangelist all insist they have the correct interpretation of this passage and the four of us do not agree, then how shall others know which of us is right?
It has never been a select group, in a select system or denomination, for a select few. But before the ink could dry, it was called the word of God.
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It was the word of God from the beginning. This is not in dispute.
The fact remains that it took centuries before it was finally and for all time determined which of the many documents surviving from the first generation were in fact Holy Scripture.
And it was the leaders of the Church, the formal central authority that claimed succession from Peter and the Apostles, who made the final determination.
You challenge their right or authority to do so. But (and no disrespect intended) why should I trust the opinion of tgGodsway more than I trust the decision of the whole leadership of the Church at the time this was done?
But interpreting scripture is a science of common sense rules that for centuries did not exist and we have paid the price for it today.
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So for centuries there was no reliable way to interpret Scripture? How did the truth survive then?

My answer to that question is that the Church survived because they followed the successors of Peter and the Apostles, who were guided by the Holy Spirit just as Christ promised would happen. And when the time came, under the guidance of the holy Spirit, they complied those documents which it pleased God would be recognized as Holy Scripture, and presented them to the Church as a whole.
tgGodsway said:
The Pharisees wanted sole ability to interpret, but Jesus messed it all up for them. He became their Protestant reformation.
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Pre-Reformation, one Church and everybody knew who belonged.
Post-Reformation, ten thousand churches and we argue incessantly about who belongs to the Church and who does not.
Pre-Reformation, one Gospel and there was general agreement about what Scripture means.
Post-Reformation–twenty people read a passage of scripture and we get ten interpretations.

This cannot be what Christ had in mind.
 
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tgGodsway said:
After the Apostles and all 1st century disciples died, the church had to rely on their writings. Not all could put the puzzle together in each generation. Rome wanted sole interpretation of scripture which was intended for all to read and interpret as the holy spirit led them. But the masses of people for.centuries was denied this gift. A wonderful Reformation with a printing press paved the way for all people to have the word of God in their hand. But it wasn’t free, many paid with their blood.
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Then from the death of the last Apostle till the Reformation and the printing press, the church, the body of all believers, had no certainty of the truth?
No. God did not leave us orphans.

You say Rome wanted sole interpretation. I reply that the Apostles had successors in authority even if those successors were no longer called ‘apostles’ but rather ‘elders’ or ‘bishops’. or some other title. The successors of the Apostles had the Holy Spirit to guide them, and they preserved the truth God gave them.

The name of the city where they finally settled is not the point. The fact they were successors of the Apostles and guided by the Spirit was the point.
 
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How can we know who has the right interpretation?.. 1st John 2:27 tells all believers that he will teach each one as they “abide” in Him. If any believer or group of believers do not abide in Him, the holy spirit will not give them the insight found in scripture.
 
tgGodsway said:
How can we know who has the right interpretation?.. 1st John 2:27 tells all believers that he will teach each one as they “abide” in Him. If any believer or group of believers do not abide in Him, the holy spirit will not give them the insight found in scripture.
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Exactly! How do we know which group of believers is correct? How do we know who abides in Him and is correct and who does not and is incorrect? Who has the authority?

Isaiah 22:20-24, Matthew 16:18-19 and Matthew 18:16-19

Look for the four marks of the true Church.

www.catholic.com

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Why am I here? Who made me? What must I believe? All these can be answered if only you will open yourself to God’s grace and the Church he established.
www.catholic.com www.catholic.com
 
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tgGodsway said:
How can we know who has the right interpretation?.. 1st John 2:27 tells all believers that he will teach each one as they “abide” in Him. If any believer or group of believers do not abide in Him, the holy spirit will not give them the insight found in scripture.
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Yes, this is true. But how am I , Zaccheus, to know which other believer to trust, when I cannot read their hearts and so cannot know who abides in Him and who does not?
Am I left entirely to my own devices, trying to interpret for myself every passage I read, and hoping I ‘abide in Him’ enough to be able to trust my interpretations? How can I know that my interpretations are any good?

Why is it not more likely that Christ left us a recognizable body of leaders and teachers whom we can know are trustworthy; and then have the Holy Spirit guide them so that they will be trustworthy?

“You are the Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
 
Agreed that the Holy Spirit was already at work through the five-fold ministry Gifts taught in Ephesians 4:11. He was at work setting up Evangelist, Pastors and teachers around the world. But this knowledge was slow moving, especially because of Rome who wanted the sole ability to interpret scripture and be in charge of all local bodies. The east resisted but the west did not.

But no one was, or is, exempt from falling into error, regardless of whatever kind of succession they had. We are all successors to those who have gone before us and must “abide” in Christ in order to be led into all the truth found in scripture. Rome is not exempt from this.
 
I’m sure every leader, including the pope and all the Bishops have every good intention to do right. Just like those in the Evangelical Church. Most people want to do right and be right. But all human beings are sinners with human frailty, bias, prejudice, and the inability to see certain things until, or unless others come along side to show them. This is true but it is not thorough.

But what is the measuring stick to truth? God’s holy word is. Anything I say, or anything you say must be scrutinized by what the Apostle’s doctrine intended to mean. Can this be accomplished? yes but it requires due-diligence to “rightly divided the word of truth” and the on going abiding in the Spirit of Christ: These two elements working hand in hand can accomplish it as long as we do not get the attitude that we have arrived. Paul said, Let no man think he stands, lest he fall.

When someone on this site tells me their view on a matter, I must compare it to what I find in scripture. If I do not know scripture, I become at a disadvantage and a candidate for error and false doctrine. If I know scripture, I can compare their “view” with that which has been settled, but only to the degree that I have put my own due-diligence to understand scripture.

St. John told us that we do not need anyone to teach us because we have “an anointing.” But the key to this divine advantage is to abide in Christ by faith, and He will open our eyes to spiritual truth, from glory to glory, as the Apostle Paul put it. This pathway comes a little at a time as we increase our knowledge and understanding of scripture It is not a one-time shot. And error comes along, many times, and leaves us in the dark for years if not detected. Jesus said they stumbled over His Word. Why? because their perception was skewed and their hearts were far from God. All of this plays into whether or not a believer will walk in the truth.

If the pope decrees a matter, it is considered a “revelation” since Rome believes God is still speaking in the earth today beyond the 1st… Century Church.
If what he decreed is not taught by the Apostle’s doctrine, or contradicts holy scripture, Rome says it is still God speaking. The revelation is a deeper revelation than what was given in the 1st. Century, but never a contradiction.
We say it is extra-biblical revelation and comes under warranted suspicion. Many people have subjective revelations about this or that. Some have visions and dreams. Some have out of body experiences, but Paul said “if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached, let them be accursed.” Gal. 1

This is an ever important principle, ignored today. No! … not ignored, re-defined.
 
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You make a good point, but I think your reasoning is flawed. Here’s why:

To your first point: You said: One Church, everybody knew who belonged. really? Did the disciples know Judas did not belong? The word Church is thrown around only in a certain light to mean The house of God, an organized structure of some sort.

But the actual word is more about one who goes out into the public. If you make your faith PUBLIC you are functioning as the Church. There is the body of Christ, and then there is the specific remnant who takes Christ into the public, who comes out from the body of Christ.

This is how the word is used in scripture in most cases. This matters when you are looking at so many various flavors of the same thing.

To the second point: It is natural for Christ body to argue or debate, as long as the argument is seasoned with love and grace and for the purpose of finding the truth. I know for sure there are many, quote, protestant churches who’s founders latched onto one stone of truth and then they went and set up camp. But since then, those in that same denomination are content to stay at the founder’s feet to only understand things his way. The only ones who dare to leave are those who find more truth and go beyond what the denominational founder originally pioneered.

But remember, Jesus’ disciples argued over who would be first in the kingdom. They argued over many things, this did not mean they were useless or illegitimate. They were babes. God was working on them.

Thirdly, not every believer is a disciple. You can find this in the ministry of Christ Himself. Not everyone who believed in him followed him. Many of them didn’t get to see Him walk on water, many of them didn’t get to see the miracles of healing or how he defended a prostitute. Yet they were at his feet when he died on the cross. My point is this: what appears to be disunity or disjointed schisms in the protestant circle are simply various levels of understanding collected together in various church buildings. Add to that, various styles of music and culture, and there you go.

But I do know this: Every Christian body believes that Jesus is the Christ, the eternal Son of God and that he rose from the grave on the third day. Every Christian body believes He will come again in glory. The protestant creeds are the same as the early Catholic creeds. There is one body and one Lord, one baptism … ect.
 
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Okay, I followed the link and saw the first clue of what the real church is. “The Church is one…”

I just made this point on this very post of how so many people typically redefine the meaning of the word church. For them it is a synonymous term use to mean the body of Christ, or the members of His spiritual body. Protestants make the same mistake.

The Church is one church meaning if you are not apart of this one Church you are not in the body of Christ. That is skewed for sure.

This is not the way the word is used in the New Testament. The Church is the collection of “called out” men and women. They are those who come out from the larger spiritual body of Christ to take their faith into the public. That is who the Church is by biblical standards. Those who go public with God’s message of grace and salvation by definition is the Church.

It has never been some kind of hierarchical institution of organized paper shuffling and ritualistic routine. Of course we do have that kind of Church out there too.

Just do a word study on the Greek counterpart for the word Church and you will understand how the Apostles applied the word. It matters to get into their thinking with these kind of words especially, lest we lose their intent as they applied them in scripture.
So what does that really look like in the real world? … well the Church is made up of many cultures, traditions, styles, and flavors, as they practice being salt and light in our dark world. They do have one powerful thing in common. They all believe that Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world, yet not all of them answer to Rome. They have their shepherds who oversee them.
 
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PART 1 : My Dear Brother, Allow me to share some personal experience with you (Food for thought, that’s all) 🙂

I grew Church of God and Pentecostal. I always loved the Lord, but it wasn’t until 2015 that i made a decision to fully dedicate to to true spiritual growth and Christ and i was soon walking in the Holy Ghost 🙂 Well, after a great time of me going around and preaching and ministering to people on the streets (which i loved mind you) I ran into some people at one point who basically saw the same Truths you also see and i also saw these things! They supported strongly that the church was just the body and we didnt need buildings. They said Sunday was “commercialized” and even believed in still honoring the Sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset). Unfortunately i bought into to believing we had to be in the Sabbath as well and joined this group. I stopped going to church on sunday mornings because that was just an “organization” and religion was “wrong” basically. After over a year of gathering with these people at the mall very often, i realized one day that something wasnt right… Long story short, i came out of that and began going back to a Pentecostal church. BUT i still saw something wasn’t right… I knew in my heart that division was wrong…and we shouldnt be in such a way… (1 Corinthians 1:10). After gaining some courage, i finally started more research and found Early Church writings… Now keep in mind, for a good while at this point, i would many times be reading the bible and be like “this sounds catholic” lol. But another long story short… here i am in RCIA, becoming a Catholic. The dots have been coming together, doctrine actually makes sense and the list goes on on how many beautiful things i have discovered within the Faith, and always wanted for some reason… Let me lastly point something out… While i agree the Church is the Body, it is also His place of ministering and authority and DOES need some order and organization 🙂 “Let things be decent…” (1 Corinthians 14:40). You see, i believed for a good while the “where two or three are gathered in my name” thing which basically said “hey guys us 3 and a bible study thats the church” While yes that is His church gathered… its not THE place of authority where we (the church) gather for the Mass and reading the Word and participating in the Eucharist :).
 
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PART 2 :CONTINUED! sorry was ALOT lol BUT

In Matthew 18:20, Jesus says “Where two or three are gathered in my name, there i am in the midst…” Now this group i was in used this verse as great leverage for their idea. (and so do many in this “Im spiritual not religious” movement) While it is true again like i said, WE are the body. Jesus tells them also in this chapter beforehand that you should get witnesses if a brother will not hear you. Now, after that hes says “But if he wont hear you guys, then hey take it to the CHURCH” So now getting to the full point… If just two or three are THE church leadership, then they wouldnt have to go to the church…But they did and He commands it 🙂 This shows clearly that we need a governing place for situations like this and many other administrations. Now of course you can bind something with just two or three brothers ( I Have 🙂 ) BUT it is made clear that there is an ultimate authority here WHO by the way are able to “cast him out as an heretic” Matthew 18:17.
 
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Welcome home JR. I went through RCIA 2014/15 and what a happy day it was to enter The Church and know I’m learning the truth! I was introduced to Jesus via a life-long Protestant man. He was actually an ex-missionary and of course knew the Bible well. I mistook his knowledge of the Bible for holiness. Turns out he wasn’t so very holy after all…but that’s not my business to share. Anyway, when he first told me all I had to do was invite Jesus into my heart and accept Him as Lord and Savior, I knew that I knew that I knew it didn’t sound right to me. I asked him how do we know which Church had it right? He said it didn’t matter. I knew just enough to be dangerous, lol…and asked him about Peter and the rock, and isn’t that the Catholic Church. He assured me it wasn’t. I just told myself since he knew the Bible way better than me, he must be right. Then I “stumbled” on some hard-core Catholic on the internet. Wow! Now this makes sense to me. The Real Presence? This is what ALL Christians believed before the Reformation? Wow. I need to see about this. But the man I’m speaking of was my husband and he was vehemently against it and even tried to forbid me from following the Catholic on the web. I stopped talking about it to him, but kept following and learning. Then tragedy hit and my youngest son died (March 2014) and as I was crying out to God, sobbing, I clearly heard Him ask me “where are you with My pain for putting My Son on that Cross for you?” I stopped sobbing immediately, because I knew what He meant. I was to get to His Church where He is worshipped properly. I buried my son, went to a priest and started RCIA that summer. And here I am. Still saddened of course about my son…but oh so totally at peace with knowing God left us a Church, a Church with authority to rightly teach us about Himself, His Mother and all the Angels and Saints. And the Sacraments! I can’t imagine getting through all my woes without Confession, Confirmation and the Holy Eucharist. Since my son’s death, I have lost my mother (she died last November) and my “husband”…he divorced me last year. I was his “second” wife and he wouldn’t “jump the hoops” of the CC to see if his marriage had grounds for annulment. Please, in charity, pray for him…he currently is living in grave sin.
 
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Hello JesusReigns.

I read your story. It sounds like you need to be in the Roman Catholic Church. I do not have a problem with that.
But I do want to clear something up. If I led you to believe that I do not believe in organization or Church government, this is wrong. I do. Actually the New testament gives us a very good structure for Church government. But what we’re really talking about here is an Episcopalian form of governing, through Roman Catholicism. It is not I who believe that my circle of faith is the only one going to heaven. Roman Catholics do. I am free to feel good about you attending a Church where you are happy. But most people on this site are not free and do not feel good about where I go to Church. For them, it must be Roman Catholic. I am a firm believer in submission to authority and I myself am under spiritual authority in my circle. Does this make sense to you?

By the way, Roman Catholics and some Pentecostals actually have more in common than you may realize.
blessings,
 
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I agree with you JesusReigns. If a sinning brother will not repent take him before the Church. I have no problem with any of this.
 
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