Matthew 25 Sheep and Goats. What if?

[redeemedbyJesus]

how’d you work that out Ruthie?

Good works are the fruit of salvation, not the way TO salvation. (in my opinion)

 

[NotWorthy]

how’d you work that out Ruthie?

Good works are the fruit of salvation, not the way TO salvation. (in my opinion)

Good works are the not the fruit of Salvation. Read the Sheep and the Goats parable one more time.

The Sheep are sent to heaven “For you fed me when I was hungry…”.

Our good works are one of the links in the chain of our salvation.

 

[redeemedbyJesus]

Ok, while I do that you go read Ephesians 2 for a while.

 

[NotWorthy]

Ok, while I do that you go read Ephesians 2 for a while.

Ok…

Are you referring to this?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

That’s good sound Catholic Doctrine. What in my post makes you think I disagree with anything in Ephesians 2?

But back to the Sheep… Why does Jesus say He is giving them the reward in Heaven? I see only one reason in that parable. That would lead one to believe that it is an important piece of the puzzle, wouldn’t you agree?

 

[NotWorthy]

Ok, while I do that you go read Ephesians 2 for a while.

While I’m perusing Ephesians 2, I’m going to think on the following as well. Jesus seemed to teach that our actions are important in determining our final destination:
***"Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father *who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Paul seems to be just as adamant:
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.” (2 Corinthians 5:10) That doesn’t sound like “faith alone” to me.

And just as our actions can aid in getting us to heaven (notice they don’t “earn” a spot in heaven), our actions can also keep us from heaven:
“And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says ‘I know him’ but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;” (1 John 2:3-4)
or
“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27)

 

[redeemedbyJesus]

Can you be saved and do nothing for Christ? No, of course not… as Romans 6 clearly says. However good works cannot bring about salvation in and of themselves… and it’s because of sin.

If I do good works all day and only sin once in the day… that sin is still the reason why I need Jesus’ sacrifice!

“For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10)

It’s not your good works that make you righteous before God… however once you are redeemed by Christ then you are a slave to Christ to do good works.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him], that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Rom 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

 

[NotWorthy]

Can you be saved and do nothing for Christ? No, of course not… as Romans 6 clearly says. However good works cannot bring about salvation in and of themselves… and it’s because of sin.

I agree. No one is arguing that point.

If I do good works all day and only sin once in the day… that sin is still the reason why I need Jesus’ sacrifice!

The Catholic Church totally agrees with this statement.

“For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10)

Amen!

It’s not your good works that make you righteous before God… however once you are redeemed by Christ then you are a slave to Christ to do good works.

Amen!!! You are preaching to the choir!!!

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him], that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Right on!! Right on!!!

Rom 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Uh, so what is your point. You didn’t show me anything here that disagrees with good sound Catholic Doctrine.

But none of your statements has made even the slightest case that you are saved by Faith alone and your works have nothing to do with your salvation.

Let me show you what Catholics teach so that you have a better idea what you are arguing against.

In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. The faith that justifies us is “faith working through love”

 

[NotWorthy]

How about John in Revelation?

“And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.” (Revelation 20:12)
Hmmmmmmm…

It sounds like the New Testament, from Matthew to Revelation, teaches us that our actions are integral to getting to heaven or not.

You see, even if you go back to the subject of the thread, the Goats had faith, for they called Jesus “Lord”. But they didn’t back up their faith with actions.

 

[redeemedbyJesus]

Yes what they had done… whether they had accepted Christ and followed Him or whether they had not.

Except I don’t believe in papal authority or priests or that Jesus is present in the Eucharist! But hey, that’s just me. xx

See for you it’s faith plus works…

for me it’s faith (justification) then works (sanctification)

Can we lose our salvation… yes… absolutely. Jesus said that if you don’t forgive, you won’t be forgiven… if you don’t show mercy, no mercy will be shown to you.

I don’t believe however that Jesus distributes his grace through sacraments or that our sins need confessing to priests, I also don’t believe in mortal or venial sins, praying to saints, or asking Mary for intercession.

Are we still buddies?

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes what they had done… whether they had accepted Christ and followed Him or whether they had not.

No arguments there either… gee I guess we have more in common than what we think!

Except of course for that little comment that Good works are the fruit of salvation. Now you claim that whether they followed Him or not matters?

Except I don’t believe in papal authority or priests or that Jesus is present in the Eucharist! But hey, that’s just me. xx

That’s exactly right. That’s just you. You can continue to pick and choose what you believe. You see, Ephesians 4 is very important to me. I prefer to follow what Christ taught through the Church.

“Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.”(§169, Catechism of the Catholic Church)

 

[NotWorthy]

I don’t believe however that Jesus distributes his grace through sacraments or that our sins need confessing to priests, I also don’t believe in mortal or venial sins, praying to saints, or asking Mary for intercession.

Are we still buddies?

Again, that’s just you.

But as for the buddies, question… we’re more than buddies, we’re brothers in Christ!!!

Good night!

 

[redeemedbyJesus]

“Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.”(§169, Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Sorry those are not Christ’s words.

 

[Christy_Beth]

James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Our works show our faith. But when Jesus said that not everyone who calls him Lord will get into heaven, it was more than just works. It was our attitudes as well. Those not getting there were saying, “Didn’t we do (whatever) in your name?” It was as if they thought their actions alone were enough. It isn’t our effort. It’s the motive behind it.

It’s like, if someone says we have to do action A to gain heaven, that won’t work. Our work is what Jesus leads us to do. Our humble obedience is important. But if we say, “look what I did for you,” we get into trouble. It’s either humble obedience or arrogant, selfish showing off. It’s the showoffs who won’t get there.

 

[NotWorthy]

“Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.”(§169, Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Sorry those are not Christ’s words.

No, just His Bride’s.

And the Two Shall Become One…

Appended: These words of your really tickle me. For when you entered into this thread, you basically went against Christ’s very own words with your opening statement, claiming that our works having nothing to do with our Salvation. And then you feel the need to throw this statement out.

I like that!

 

[redeemedbyJesus]

Which statement are you referring to?

There is no contradiction, we are saved by faith alone in Christ (justified) to do good works for God (sanctification)

Anything less than that is doing works to try and justify yourself before God…

Yes faith without works is dead, that means there are two types of faith

1. saying “I believe in God!” and then going out and doing all sorts of evil… that kind of faith doesn’t save you
2. Faith that leads to repentace and faith in Jesus Christ that leads to salvation… and then good works.

If you say you must do good works to be justified before God you will fall short.

 

[NotWorthy]

A person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. The faith that justifies us is “faith working through love” not faith alone.

 

[NotWorthy]

Which statement are you referring to?

There is no contradiction, we are saved by faith alone in Christ (justified) to do good works for God (sanctification)

Anything less than that is doing works to try and justify yourself before God…

Yes faith without works is dead, that means there are two types of faith

1. saying “I believe in God!” and then going out and doing all sorts of evil… that kind of faith doesn’t save you
2. Faith that leads to repentace and faith in Jesus Christ that leads to salvation… and then good works.

If you say you must do good works to be justified before God you will fall short.

So, what do our good works do for us?

 

[redeemedbyJesus]

The answer to that is in Romans 4:4

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. (catholic bible)

The works are according to the grace of God that he has bestowed upon us, basically we owe God our good works because of our salvation and we owe God for what He has done for us.

Ephesians 1:3 “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.”

Now if you have recieved every spiritual blessing in Christ, would you want to go out and tell the world?

You do it out of love for God!

 

[CWBetts]

The goats on the left are astonished to find they did not clothe the naked, feed the hungry, slake the thirsty, visit the ill and imprisoned and in so doing they neglected Jesus.

I’m thinking of the Christian soul, who, for whatever reason cannot participate in some good works–the squeamish who fears hospitals and prisons. The ones who don’t have anything to spare in their pantries or closets. At the very best, they can contribute some small monetary donation to a worthy cause, even if it’s the equivalent of the widow’s two cents into the poor box.

I am trusting that the Lord’s mercy is sufficient to supply for such a soul’s meager efforts at charity.

Does this passage from the Gospel call us to action however small?

Put it another way: if I do help out at a soup kitchen, help lay in the plumbing for a water supply, contribute to a clothing drive, accompany the deacon when he brings Holy Communion to the hospitalized on Sundays but fail to visit the county jail, does that make me a goat?

This isn’t a “do everything on this list or yo’re in trouble” like my parents used to give me when they went off to weork and I was at home during summer vacation. This is more like a menu. Select the areas in which you are most gofted and do them.

 

[NotWorthy]

The answer to that is in Romans 4:4

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. (catholic bible)

The works are according to the grace of God that he has bestowed upon us, basically we owe God our good works because of our salvation and we owe God for what He has done for us.

Ephesians 1:3 “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.”

Now if you have recieved every spiritual blessing in Christ, would you want to go out and tell the world?

You do it out of love for God!

Of course you should do it out of Love for God and for no other reason. I heard a priest give a talk. He said, what if someone helps a little old lady across the street, thinking that she’s going to give him a big reward. That’s not a good work.

But if you help the old lady out simply because she’s another child of God… That’s charity.

But here’s where I think you’re getting Catholic Theology all wrong. When a Catholic does a good work, they don’t think God “owes” them a reward. They just trust that God will reward them as He promised, provided they stay in a state of Grace (I believe this is what you guys call justified). That’s why we can’t boast. There is absolutely nothing that we can do to earn Heaven. I think that’s often misunderstood regarding Catholic Teaching.