May Catholics Endorse Universalism?

[Julius_Caesar]

Maybe that warning is a big part of why no one is going there

Except we are told people WILL GO THERE.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Universalism does not teach that individuals are saved and that hell is empty because everyone individually accepts God, even at death. It teaches that all are saved, period, as a whole. That’s why it’s heretical. It leaves no room for the Church teaching that there are things that will 100% lead you to reject God and accept hell.

 

[Rubee]

Universalism does not teach that individuals are saved and that hell is empty because everyone individually accepts God, even at death. It teaches that all are saved, period, as a whole. That’s why it’s heretical. It leaves no room for the Church teaching that there are things that will 100% lead you to reject God and accept hell.

That’s one version of it, the one condemned. There are different versions.

 

[Rubee]

Your questions assume I’m saying people who deny/hate/reject God will magically find themselves in heaven. I’m saying I choose to believe everyone or most will repent and do penance. I’ve already said I believe most of us will spend a very long time in purgatory. Lastly, I defer to the church. If this is declared wrong, I will abandon it.

 

[Anesti33]

Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman:

Universalism does not teach that individuals are saved and that hell is empty because everyone individually accepts God, even at death. It teaches that all are saved, period, as a whole. That’s why it’s heretical. It leaves no room for the Church teaching that there are things that will 100% lead you to reject God and accept hell.

That’s one version of it, the one condemned. There are different versions.

Heresy morphs faster than the Church can condemn it, sometimes.

 

[Rubee]

Heresy morphs faster than the Church can condemn it, sometimes.

The church seems ok with “We dare hope,” I choose to exercise better faith in our best scholars and philosophers and popes than that.

 

[Anesti33]

Anesti33:

Heresy morphs faster than the Church can condemn it, sometimes.

The church seems ok with “We dare hope,” I choose to exercise better faith in our best scholars and philosophers and popes than that.

I never ever saw a defined doctrine that began “We dare hope”.

 

[Rubee]

I never ever saw a defined doctrine that began “We dare hope”.

It’s a book Popes JP II and Benedict XVI seemed to hold in high regards that spoke of hope that all would be saved. Ima stick with them when it comes to detecting sly, sneaky heresy hiding under the rocks (that the church hasn’t caught yet because it’s morphing too quickly).

 

[Rubee]

It’s interesting, lol. In such an event, I see the Pope and Bishops doing that everywhere all at once. However, its not enough. Just like regular absolution given at confession, there must be the disposition to receive the grace in the sacrament or it will bounce right off the closed door of the unrepentant heart/soul.

 

[Anesti33]

Norms for General Absolution:

1. In order that the faithful may take advantage of general sacramental absolution it is absolutely required that they be suitably disposed: each should repent of the sins he has committed, have the purpose of keeping from sin, intend to repair any scandal or loss caused, and also have the purpose of confessing in due time each serious sin that he is at present unable to confess. Priests should carefully remind the faithful of these dispositions and conditions, which are required for the validity of the sacrament.

As you can see, General Absolution is not a magic bullet to “save” everyone who hears the formula. Conditions must still be met as if each were going to auricular confession.

 

[Rubee]

Lol, how catholic of you to replace b with w. I’ll try that in normal conversation when something “uncouth” sounds really powerful and I don’t want to discard it.

 

[OneSheep]

If a sinner repents he will live. If a rigethous person does evil, he will die.

Isn’t it our ways that lack mercy and not God’s?

From the cross, Jesus forgave unrepentant sinners. This was God’s way. The limitations come from our side, the conditions come from our side, not God’s side.

Just checking in: so you expect Satan to one day repent and go back to being Lucifer?

At the very least, we can certainly hope so. It is my prayer. (Assuming it hasn’t happened already.)

Heresy morphs faster than the Church can condemn it, sometimes.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

From the cross, Jesus forgave unrepentant sinners.

Asking the Father not to lay a sin to someone’s charge is not forgiveness. They still had to repent .

 

[MNathaniel]

MNathaniel:

Just checking in: so you expect Satan to one day repent and go back to being Lucifer?

At the very least, we can certainly hope so. It is my prayer. (Assuming it hasn’t happened already.)

Just highlighting this so those who don’t understand the slippery slope universalism tends to lead down, can see.

(PS, “assuming it hasn’t happened already”??? You think it’s arguable that Satan has already repented and un-fallen back up to the original glory he previously rejected?)

 

[Julius_Caesar]

The limitations come from our side, the conditions come from our side, not God’s side.

The Gospel reading has God kick out a person because he didn’t wear a wedding garment. Yes, God has conditions.

 

[OneSheep]

The Gospel reading has God kick out a person because he didn’t wear a wedding garment. Yes, God has conditions.

If a person is in a state of non-acceptance of grace, then they will not be part of the celebration, the banquet, the eternal life that begins today. It is the person doing the rejecting, but it appears that God is rejecting.

God doesn’t reject people, but it will seem that way to the person who has closed himself off.

And then, no one knows what they are doing when they close themselves off. (Luke 23:34)

 

[Julius_Caesar]

It is the person doing the rejecting, but it appears that God is rejecting.

Or it’s both. That person’s not meeting God’s conditions.

 

[OneSheep]

That person’s not meeting God’s conditions.

Again: Jesus, from the cross, forgave the unrepentant.

Thank you for reminding me why I never get into the issue about angels and such! This is where I hope for more unfolding revelation… There is no reason whatsoever not to hope and pray that any loved creature not enter eternal glory, and there is no reason not to believe that what we pray for be fulfilled.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Again: Jesus, from the cross, forgave the unrepentant.

Again: He prayed for their forgiveness. Big diff.

 

[OneSheep]

Pessimist!

CCC2567God calls man first* . Man may forget his Creator or hide far from his face; he may run after idols or accuse the deity of having abandoned him; yet the living and true God tirelessly calls each person to that mysterious encounter known as prayer. In prayer, the faithful God’s initiative of love always comes first; our own first step is always a response. As God gradually reveals himself and reveals man to himself, prayer appears as a reciprocal call, a covenant drama. Through words and actions, this drama engages the heart. It unfolds throughout the whole history of salvation.

With God, everything is possible. A merciful possible.

He prayed for their forgiveness.

Yes, and since Jesus is part of the trinity, His prayer was already fulfilled in His asking. He willed to forgive them, even though they were not repentant. Now, if anyone in the crowd did not (eventually) forgive Jesus, they would not experience forgiveness from the Father. They would continue to be enslaved by their grudge.

So too, in order to experience God’s forgiveness, we must forgive all those we hold anything against. It is a condition that in order to experience His forgiveness in a real way, we must forgive, even the unrepentant.