Maybe I should stay Protestant

[angelic06]

My pastor is smart and really quite sneaky about this. He asks the whole congregation to stay for a prayer for vocations after Mass. He stands in the back of the church and leads us in prayer. You’d have to have nerves of steel to want to walk past him while everyone else is praying. The result: in my whole life, I’ve never seen a parish where so few people leave Mass early.

Tricky tricky!

Maybe I can escape via the sidedoor…just hand your Mass booklets to somebody standing in the nave who looks like he/she is collecting them, and the priest won’t notice…

(No offense to the pastor for prayers for vocations—they are sorely needed.)

Paul R. Viola

 

[Orionsbow]

too am sorry you have not experienced hospitality. If you can find it in your heart to remain open, you can and will find parishes which are full to the brim with loving, caring people. In my own diocese of Orlando, FL, I certainly have.

As some here have suggested, fellowship in the Catholic Church is meant to take place outside the sanctuary, which is consecrated to prayer, worship and devotion. I am surprised that you’ve not experienced comraderie in the many,many local church celebrations, lay ministries and apostolates. Again, in those venues, I’ve met hundreds of good souls who welcome their brethren and live out Christ’s message.

On a final note, on the road to Emmaus, Christ was recognized “in the breaking of the bread”. This clearly signifies the Eucharist, and is not strictly read as the mere act of hospitality as was posted here.

In any case, the fellowship you experience as a Protestant exists fully in the Catholic Church, but please understand that the Eucharist, the ultimate fellowship, communion with the Body of Christ, which is His church, takes place first and foremost in reception of the Sacrament; Fellowship, in the sense with which you are familiar, though valued, is secondary to that ultimate communion with your brethren in the reception of Our Lord’s Body and Blood.

I shall pray for your well being and that Our Lord grant you an abundance of fellowship.

 

[Roy5]

wanner47

You're right. I don't recommend certain faiths, among them Wicca, Satanism, Santeria, etc. I did mention Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant and intended to focus on them. I honestly don't believe God cares where, of these three, we are fed spiritually. This emphasis on only 'one true Church' - in my view - is contrary to the need for both Christian unity and charity. I can't believe Jesus wants us to wrangle over the Immaculate Conception or transubstantiation. Very smart scholars and intensely devoted believers have held different opinions on such doctrinal matters, and they are secondary to the two commandments that Christ Jesus lifted up: love God and love your neighbor. 

  When Jesus was asked: Master, how can I inherit eternal life?, that's how Christ answered him. When questioned further, Jesus gave the parable of the Good Samaritan, holding up as the hero a man who definitely was 'heretical', despised by Jews for interrnarriage as well as rejecting various teachings and practices of traditional Judaism.  

  I'm well aware that traditional Catholics don't agree with me. But millions of Catholics, perhaps the majority, do. There is a rejection of exclusiveness, the notion that Catholics alone have the fullness of truth. My guess is that all of us do the best we can but that this world is so massive and mysterious and magnificent that no church has a monopoly on truth. At best, we each have a corner of it. So, pride is inappropriate. Brilliant theologians have been produced by various Christian traditions, and we can learn from one another.

God bless all his children, of every faith, color and nation. May the churches help and not hinder as we seek reconciliation, mutual respect and peace. Dismiss this as 'heretical universalism' if you wish, but I'm sure that Christ would want that.

 

[Aramis]

Roy, any who believes as you do has severed their being a practical Catholic.

Quite literally, the church teaches that ONLY the Orthodox, Assyrians, Armenians, and Catholics have the fullness of the sacraments. Others do not worship God; other Christians pray to god, often communally, but do not in fact Truly Worship (latria), for True Worship requires following Christ’s command to celebrate the Eucharist. He didn’t say “This represents my body,” but “This Is my body.” And he didn’t tell the whole of the disciples, but only the 12, and one of those went and hanged himself a day later.

Without the fullness of the sacraments, it is exceptionally hard to make it to heaven, harder than getting a camel through the eye of the needle.

Likewise, he did not tell all the disciples to go forth and teach and forgive mens sins, but the Apostles he did so. And, likewise, the new apostle Matthias was not elected by the disciples en masse, but by the Apostles, and consecrated to be an apostle by them, to teach and to preach, and to forgive and hold bound sins.

Universalism is a declared heresy; any Catholic who teaches it suffers “automatic” (latae sentencae) excommunication as a manifest heretic. Even believing it is a mortal sin.

 

[wanner47]

wanner47

You're right. I don't recommend certain faiths, among them Wicca, Satanism, Santeria, etc. I did mention Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant and intended to focus on them. I honestly don't believe God cares where, of these three, we are fed spiritually. This emphasis on only 'one true Church' - in my view - is contrary to the need for both Christian unity and charity. I can't believe Jesus wants us to wrangle over the Immaculate Conception or transubstantiation. Very smart scholars and intensely devoted believers have held different opinions on such doctrinal matters, and they are secondary to the two commandments that Christ Jesus lifted up: love God and love your neighbor. 

  When Jesus was asked: Master, how can I inherit eternal life?, that's how Christ answered him. When questioned further, Jesus gave the parable of the Good Samaritan, holding up as the hero a man who definitely was 'heretical', despised by Jews for interrnarriage as well as rejecting various teachings and practices of traditional Judaism.  

  I'm well aware that traditional Catholics don't agree with me. But millions of Catholics, perhaps the majority, do. There is a rejection of exclusiveness, the notion that Catholics alone have the fullness of truth. My guess is that all of us do the best we can but that this world is so massive and mysterious and magnificent that no church has a monopoly on truth. At best, we each have a corner of it. So, pride is inappropriate. Brilliant theologians have been produced by various Christian traditions, and we can learn from one another.

God bless all his children, of every faith, color and nation. May the churches help and not hinder as we seek reconciliation, mutual respect and peace. Dismiss this as 'heretical universalism' if you wish, but I'm sure that Christ would want that.

Don’t you think Christ would want his followers to KNOW the truth? In fact, he gave us that promise: “You SHALL KNOW the truth, and the truth will set you free.” Was Christ lying when He said this? If not, why would He say this if, as you contend, it is impossible for any Christian denomination to have a “monopoly” on the truth?

What would you say to someone who said that Wicca (for example) “spiritually fed” them, and that it was impossible for *anyone * (Christian or otherwise) to have a monopoly on the truth?

 

[curl]

But for Sunday Mass to “count” in terms of your Sunday obligation, you have to be there from the time the priest says “Let us begin in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” until after the priest has left the nave of the Church.

Dear jmcrae,

Do you have a reference to back up this statement?

 

[ciero]

To “count” for what? If they’re dropping in on a weekday Mass to receive Holy Communion for a Novena that they’re doing, and for reasons of work and other daily duties they honestly can’t stay for the whole Mass, then, yeah - fine.

But for Sunday Mass to “count” in terms of your Sunday obligation, you have to be there from the time the priest says “Let us begin in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” until after the priest has left the nave of the Church.

Where the heck did you come up with this idea?

Utter rubbish!!

 

[pismopal]

Is it more serious to miss Sunday Mass for no good reason…or to be heading out the side door toward the parking lot after receiving Holy Communion and while parishioners are still in lines to receive? Not a hypothetical question…happens every Sunday without fail:shrug:

 

[Roy5]

God of love?

 Now, I was raised to believe that God is love, that the Lord is quick to forgive, that the Lord understands us better than we understand ourselves, that he is all-merciful, omniscient, omnipotent, etc.

 Then some devout Christians come along and warn me that because we think for ourselves, respect other faiths, interpret the scripture a little differently, then we are automatically excommunicated and likely on our way to hell!

 Frankly, I want nothing to do with such a narrow, judgmental, bigoted misrepresentation of Christianity. I view my faith altogether differently. Jesus was quick to use the Samaritan as our example, and Samaritans were despised by the Jews for their 'heresies'. His whole ministry was geared to the outcasts. He ate with publicans and sinners. He was crucified in part because he defied the pious 'church' establishment of the time.  And we could go on.

 All attempts to make Christianity into a chauvinistic religion that condemns every other faith and shows a face of intolerance is tragic. No wonder more and more people are coming to see religion as a negative force.

  I regard legitimate religion as a force that liberates and doesn't repress. I see Christ as a redeemer and not a bigot. There is a big division within Catholicism and within wider Christianity (Protestantism and Orthodoxy, too) between those who are cocksure that they are right, the only ones with the correct faith, the only ones heading for heaven, and - on the other side - those of us who want Christianity to be broad-minded, magnanimous, open to a variety of views, welcoming to a wide assortment of souls. I don't want a church like that of Pius IX who condemned democracy and the separation of church and state. I am embarrassed to think that the Christian church once burned heretics, condemned Galileo, and kept generations from reading great works of science and literature.

   I'm painfully aware that most posters on CAF disagree with this viewpoint, but it needs to be expressed, because that's the direction in which most honest Christians are moving. God give us wisdom, patience, and most especially love. 

  And may God bless all of his children, whatever their faith, color, or nation - even those with whom we have major disagreements. And may Christianity become a bridge and not as barrier to understanding, harmony and peace.

 

[wanner47]

God of love?

 Now, I was raised to believe that God is love, that the Lord is quick to forgive, that the Lord understands us better than we understand ourselves, that he is all-merciful, omniscient, omnipotent, etc.

 Then some devout Christians come along and warn me that because we think for ourselves, respect other faiths, interpret the scripture a little differently, then we are automatically excommunicated and likely on our way to hell!

Roy, I’m confused – are you saying that the above is a teaching of Catholicism? If that’s what you think, you are 100% wrong. First of all, non-Catholics cannot be excommunicated from a church they aren’t a part of in the first place. Secondly, Catholics are NEVER to make judgments about the state of someone’s soul. I don’t think all Protestants “are likely on their way to hell.” I think God’s going to give a lot of leeway to Protestants due to invincible ignorance. Since He is the only one that I know of that can read hearts and minds, I leave all the judging up to Him.

  I regard legitimate religion as a force that liberates and doesn't repress. I see Christ as a redeemer and not a bigot. There is a big division within Catholicism and within wider Christianity (Protestantism and Orthodoxy, too) between those who are cocksure that they are right, the only ones with the correct faith, the only ones heading for heaven, and - on the other side - those of us who want Christianity to be broad-minded, magnanimous, open to a variety of views, welcoming to a wide assortment of souls. I don't want a church like that of Pius IX who condemned democracy and the separation of church and state. I am embarrassed to think that the Christian church once burned heretics, condemned Galileo, and kept generations from reading great works of science and literature.

Holy misconceptions, Batman! Pius IX never condemned democracy, the issue with Galileo wasn’t his beliefs but rather that he tried to pass off all of his scientific theories as scientific fact (and that he insulted his friend the Pope while doing so). Protestants also burned heretics (hello, Queen Elizabeth I!), and I’d love to see some factual support for the last claim. The Catholic Church PRESERVED great works of science and literature, and many Catholics also wrote such works (example: Dante).

   I'm painfully aware that most posters on CAF disagree with this viewpoint, but it needs to be expressed, because that's the direction in which most honest Christians are moving. God give us wisdom, patience, and most especially love.

Well, you might want to, you know, make accusations that have an actual basis in fact, unlike the ones above. Otherwise, you’re guilty of bearing false witness.

 

[angelic06]

Is it more serious to miss Sunday Mass for no good reason…or to be heading out the side door toward the parking lot after receiving Holy Communion and while parishioners are still in lines to receive? Not a hypothetical question…happens every Sunday without fail:shrug:

No, no, and NO----leave the side door if you don’t want to shake the hand of all the parish clergy AFTER the Mass has ended and the final hymn has been sung. (Some of us are still in prayer mode after the concluding hymn and are in absolutely no mood to attend the reception or whatever parish social goes on after Mass…and yes, I have plenty of things I think about.) I don’t leave Mass after communion (for some reason you are quick to think that I am, not like I can in any case since I’m in the choir in the choir loft *----nor would there be any person in the nave collecting booklets while the Mass is still in progress—let’s reason this out, shall we?).

You’ll notice that the poster referenced is referring to prayers for vocations AFTER Mass, not during. As far as the divine law is concerned, one has fulfilled their responsibility after the dismissal. Now, it is highly desirable that the faithful should stay to sing the closing hymn, but it is not really fair to hold them as long as you possibly can (especially if the hymnody is wretched). And the prayers for vocations is laudable, but anything after the dismissal is extra—and there are legit reasons why a person may have to leave early.*

 

[angelic06]

Now, on the flip side of the coin, I want to encourage the faithful to stay and sing the final hymn (or at least lip sync (sp?)), since it is our great privilege to sing the praises of the Lord, and as we remember from the Gospels, the first person to leave the Last Supper was…Judas.

Take care.

Paul R. Viola

 

[pismopal]

No, no, and NO----leave the side door if you don’t want to shake the hand of all the parish clergy AFTER the Mass has ended and the final hymn has been sung. (Some of us are still in prayer mode after the concluding hymn and are in absolutely no mood to attend the reception or whatever parish social goes on after Mass…and yes, I have plenty of things I think about.) I don’t leave Mass after communion (for some reason you are quick to think that I am, not like I can in any case since I’m in the choir in the choir loft *----nor would there be any person in the nave collecting booklets while the Mass is still in progress—let’s reason this out, shall we?).

You’ll notice that the poster referenced is referring to prayers for vocations AFTER Mass, not during. As far as the divine law is concerned, one has fulfilled their responsibility after the dismissal. Now, it is highly desirable that the faithful should stay to sing the closing hymn, but it is not really fair to hold them as long as you possibly can (especially if the hymnody is wretched). And the prayers for vocations is laudable, but anything after the dismissal is extra—and there are legit reasons why a person may have to leave early.*

Whoa…Nellie! I am sorry you thought my post had anything to do with you personally. I was just popping off about a pet peeve. I am confident that you are not an offender…sorry again

 

[angelic06]

Whoa…Nellie! I am sorry you thought my post had anything to do with you personally. I was just popping off about a pet peeve. I am confident that you are not an offender…sorry again

And my sincere apologies for my sharp remarks. Somehow I knew you weren’t on my case specifically.

With Easter joy,

Paul R. Viola

 

[Nightingales]

To “count” for what? If they’re dropping in on a weekday Mass to receive Holy Communion for a Novena that they’re doing, and for reasons of work and other daily duties they honestly can’t stay for the whole Mass, then, yeah - fine.

But for Sunday Mass to “count” in terms of your Sunday obligation, you have to be there from the time the priest says “Let us begin in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” until after the priest has left the nave of the Church.

I’m sorry to say, that at EVERY catholic church I have been to on Sunday, the doors blow open as soon as communion has been received by the “faithful”. ANY catholic church, I don’t care where it is. “Count”, as in “getting 'er done” (as I have heard it before) you know? Fullfilling the Sunday obligation. The church that I mentioned in this thread, or perhaps another, heck, the priest even tells the folks they don’t have to be there for the whole “bit”. Nothing to do with folks with other duties, doctors or the like, it’s folks with other things they HAVE to do, which, obviously, is not the worship of our Lord.

I went to pick up my folks from mass one day and asked folks leaving the church early, why they were leaving. Answers? “It’s all over”, “I have more important things to do”, “I have a dinner engagement”, “I really needed a smoke”, “You don’t have to stay for the whole thing” and “I got it done for the week”.

Great, eh?

 

[angelic06]

I’m sorry to say, that at EVERY catholic church I have been to on Sunday, the doors blow open as soon as communion has been received by the “faithful”. ANY catholic church, I don’t care where it is. “Count”, as in “getting 'er done” (as I have heard it before) you know? Fullfilling the Sunday obligation. The church that I mentioned in this thread, or perhaps another, heck, the priest even tells the folks they don’t have to be there for the whole “bit”. Nothing to do with folks with other duties, doctors or the like, it’s folks with other things they HAVE to do, which, obviously, is not the worship of our Lord.

I went to pick up my folks from mass one day and asked folks leaving the church early, why they were leaving. Answers? “It’s all over”, “I have more important things to do”, “I have a dinner engagement”, “I really needed a smoke”, “You don’t have to stay for the whole thing” and “I got it done for the week”.

Great, eh?

Sometimes the music is wretched or the priest when making the final blessing decides to make a personality display in deliberately deciding to sound like a cowboy (you can tell when this occurs-----"Let the church say, “AAAAA-men!”), so some who know this may happen may leave before the blessing. I’ll submit that that is no reason to leave early, but I can surely sympathize since I’ve been to plenty of those churches myself, eventhough some other reason may either be the real reason or a disguise for the one I just proposed.

 

[mardukm]

I’m sorry to say, that at EVERY catholic church I have been to on Sunday, the doors blow open as soon as communion has been received by the “faithful”. ANY catholic church, I don’t care where it is. “Count”, as in “getting 'er done” (as I have heard it before) you know? Fullfilling the Sunday obligation. The church that I mentioned in this thread, or perhaps another, heck, the priest even tells the folks they don’t have to be there for the whole “bit”. Nothing to do with folks with other duties, doctors or the like, it’s folks with other things they HAVE to do, which, obviously, is not the worship of our Lord.

I went to pick up my folks from mass one day and asked folks leaving the church early, why they were leaving. Answers? “It’s all over”, “I have more important things to do”, “I have a dinner engagement”, “I really needed a smoke”, “You don’t have to stay for the whole thing” and “I got it done for the week”.

Great, eh?

I seriously doubt it’s as bad as you make it out. It happens in all churches, not just Catholic ones. But MOST of the people stay for the whole thing.

Blessings

 

[Nightingales]

I seriously doubt it’s as bad as you make it out. It happens in all churches, not just Catholic ones. But MOST of the people stay for the whole thing.

Blessings

No, it’s worse than that. It’s every catholic church I have ever seen and I’ve been around the world three times. I must admit, it is worse in the USA, but for sure, there are three separate times for the mass to end. First wave of folks are out immediately after communion, the next is after the communion is over (might seem better to stay for a few minutes) and then the last wave of departures is when the mass is REALLY over.

I have been to mass and always stay to the end. I have had people PUSH me out of the way, if I am on my knees praying, or standing, singing the final hymns. I have to move because they refuse to stay for the entire service.

It’s not confined to just one church in one small city. It is everywhere.

 

[mardukm]

No, it’s worse than that. It’s every catholic church I have ever seen and I’ve been around the world three times. I must admit, it is worse in the USA, but for sure, there are three separate times for the mass to end. First wave of folks are out immediately after communion, the next is after the communion is over (might seem better to stay for a few minutes) and then the last wave of departures is when the mass is REALLY over.

I have been to mass and always stay to the end. I have had people PUSH me out of the way, if I am on my knees praying, or standing, singing the final hymns. I have to move because they refuse to stay for the entire service.

It’s not confined to just one church in one small city. It is everywhere.

Funny. I’ve never seen the “waves” (as you call it) occur in any of the Latin Churches I’ve been to. I’ve seen trickles, but certainly no “waves.” Your descriptions are just too fantastic to be believed.

Blessings

 

[Lead_Me_Home]

To the OP,

Allowing the actions of people who claim to practice a faith make you reject is not a very good approach to any religion. I am African-American and a Catholic (Christian). Christians enslaved my forefathers and committed countless acts of evil, does this mean Jesus does not love me?

You have to pray and trust in God. Read about the Catholic Church’s doctrines and how they are rooted in the bible and the sacred traditions of Christians who served the Lord before the New Testament was ever written into a cannon.

There is a difference between Catholicism and Catholics.
Judaism ans Jews, Islam and Muslims, and all other religions and those who practice them.