McBrien Still Hanging Onto Seamless Garment

[jlw]

Bobby Jim:

Why does everything have to be about the government? It’s an unhealthy obsession.

Laws are just or unjust. Being ambivelent about our government and it’s scope and power to make, undo, or enforce law is unhealthy too.

 

[PRoach]

Bobby Jim:

Why does everything have to be about the government? It’s an unhealthy obsession.

When it’s actions result in the slaughter of 1 million innocent unborn children every year, you’d better obsess over it!

 

[katherine2]

Trelow:

The government can’t make poverty illegal.
It can make abortion illegal.

Hmmmm. there are probably rational and faithfull people who would say that the government probably has an equal ability to make poverty and abortion illegal.

 

[jlw]

katherine2:

Hmmmm. there are probably rational and faithfuul people who would say that the government probably has an equal ability to make poverty and abortion illegal.

katherine2, let me drop some rational thought on ya:

poverty is a state of being.

abortion is an act.

Care to restate your position??

 

[Bob_Baran]

fix:

I almost forgot another Bernardin fiasco called common ground. A way to combine truth with error and still think you are a Catholic.

You mean how to be a hypocrite and still feel you’re practicing Catholicism??:tsktsk:

 

[Bobby_Jim]

PRoach:

When it’s actions result in the slaughter of 1 million innocent unborn children every year, you’d better obsess over it!

I honestly think it will be a while before the government outlaws abortion, Republicans in control or not. Just because abortion is legal doesn’t mean people must have abortions. I think it’s more effective to work on the hearts and minds of people, convince them that abortion really is murder. If enough people think that way, there will be the enough politcal will to officially outlaw it. But the “laws” (be they real, legitimate laws or judicial decisions) are, in theory, meant to support the common good and the will of the people. If abortion is outlawed, but we fail to convince many more of our fellow citizens of the rightness of that action, it won’t do much good. At least that’s my expectation.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Bobby Jim:

I honestly think it will be a while before the government outlaws abortion, Republicans in control or not. Just because abortion is legal doesn’t mean people must have abortions. I think it’s more effective to work on the hearts and minds of people, convince them that abortion really is murder. If enough people think that way, there will be the enough politcal will to officially outlaw it. But the “laws” (be they real, legitimate laws or judicial decisions) are, in theory, meant to support the common good and the will of the people. If abortion is outlawed, but we fail to convince many more of our fellow citizens of the rightness of that action, it won’t do much good. At least that’s my expectation.

In order to change laws to either eliminate or restrict abortion hearts and mind have to be won - the law will not change until the “will” of the American people support that change.

This is why I have said from the beginning it is an incremental journey, all uphill, it starts with the election of a President who will at least offer the opportunity to have appointed SOME judges who will support life and not prohibiting them from holding office, then it takes working with state, and local government agencies and supporting candidates for those offices who will not use their office to make a social agenda but to support the laws and will of a free people. It can be done, it will be done, but not in a minute, a week, a year or by the next election.

The society in which we live with its total disregard for the sanctity and dignity of human life did not get this way overnight - it came over many years - it will take no shorter time to undo this damage to the national soul and psyche. Every journey starts with the first step, we have made ours - now let us continue.

 

[chicago]

fix:

Cardinal Law and others started the idea for a new CCC specfically to debunk the false theology behind Bernardin’s seamless garment nonsense.

Actually, Cardinal Law was also a supporter of being what he called “unconditionally pro-life”.

 

[chicago]

JKirkLVNV:

I followed your link. I don’t know much about the group, though I liked most of what I read. I’m careful anymore about just accepting one groups slant or interpretation on a person. For example, on these boards, there are actually people who denounce Blessed John XXIII, of happy memory. Ya gotta be careful what ya believe, left and right.

Isn’t RCF pretty hardline right as can be? “Slant” would be the operative word in such an analysis of theirs.

 

[chicago]

Trelow:

BUT people can have differing opinions on how to handle social issues…

And Cardinal Bernardin noted just that in his own articulation.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

katherine2:
Dear katherine2,

Your answer to my questions about your enthusiasm for the new Atlanta archbishop (Wilton Gregory), were so well thought out and comprehensive, that I wonder if you would be so kind as to give us all your evaluaton of the late Cardinal Bernadin (covering the points enumerated in the RCF link)?

Thanks,

Anna

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

katherine2:

ByzCath:

Typical tactic of liberals. Accuse people of injustice when they disagree with your views.

It is a fact that Catholics can stand on both sides of the issue of “social justice”.

It is also a fact that Catholics can never support abortion.

No, dear. Catholics must always oppose abortion and support social justice. They don’t have the moral option of picking one and not the other.

Please spare me the condescension (another liberal tatic when you disagree with them). I do not know you and I am not your dear.

Are you really that thick.

We can disagree on social justice issues. You might be for welfare, I say welfare does not work and even worse than that I think welfare goes against social justice, it devalues the human being to just give money for nothing. That is just one example of how we can be on both sides of a social justice issue.

War is another one.
Bobby Jim:

What Catholics can legitimately disagree about is what form (if any) social or government policy should take in addressing issues of social (in)justice. But hopefully there aren’t many Catholics who choose to think that we need more poverty and oppression all around, or that they have no part in the issue, and can leave it up to other people to take care of. That would be standing on the wrong side of the social justice issue.

This is what I meant. I might not have said it in the right way but before we jump on people maybe we should ask further questions to clarify what they mean.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

katherine2:

Hmmmm. there are probably rational and faithfull people who would say that the government probably has an equal ability to make poverty and abortion illegal.

They’ve tried that, they were called debtor prisions. Also indentured servitude.

 

[Francesco]

HagiaSophia:

In order to change laws to either eliminate or restrict abortion hearts and mind have to be won - the law will not change until the “will” of the American people support that change.

This is why I have said from the beginning it is an incremental journey, all uphill, it starts with the election of a President who will at least offer the opportunity to have appointed SOME judges who will support life and not prohibiting them from holding office, then it takes working with state, and local government agencies and supporting candidates for those offices who will not use their office to make a social agenda but to support the laws and will of a free people. It can be done, it will be done, but not in a minute, a week, a year or by the next election.

The society in which we live with its total disregard for the sanctity and dignity of human life did not get this way overnight - it came over many years - it will take no shorter time to undo this damage to the national soul and psyche. Every journey starts with the first step, we have made ours - now let us continue.

Sophia:

Thank you. Well said. We need the “staying power” to change the hearts and minds of lost generations and to inculcate in new generations the love of the Lord so that they may hear the teachings of Mother Church.

Francesco

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Dear katherine2

Sorry to be so late getting back to things, but do you suppose you could accomodate me with an answer to my question in post # 50 of this thread?

Thanks,

Anna

 

[katherine2]

Anna Elizabeth:

Dear katherine2,

Your answer to my questions about your enthusiasm for the new Atlanta archbishop (Wilton Gregory), were so well thought out and comprehensive, that I wonder if you would be so kind as to give us all your evaluaton of the late Cardinal Bernadin (covering the points enumerated in the RCF link)?

Thanks,

Anna

Dear Anna,

Merry Christmas!!

Oh, the Cardinal was a wonderful man. Shortly before his death he wrote a little book of reflections that to me was deeply spiritual and moving. I had the opportunity to hear him speak or offer Mass on a couple of ocassions and he seemed so very faith filled and loving.

It was also easy to see the deep love the people of Chicago had for him and still have today. Chicago is an important See in the Church and a history of great churchmen (Strich, Mundelien, Meyer, etc.) . I think he was clearly up to the job!

Katherine

 

[fix]

katherine2:

Dear Anna,

Merry Christmas!!

Oh, the Cardinal was a wonderful man. Shortly before his death he wrote a little book of reflections that to me was deeply spiritual and moving. I had the opportunity to hear him speak or offer Mass on a couple of ocassions and he seemed so very faith filled and loving.

It was also easy to see the deep love the people of Chicago had for him and still have today. Chicago is an important See in the Church and a history of great churchmen (Strich, Mundelien, Meyer, etc.) . I think he was clearly up to the job!

Katherine

Oh, yes he is still loved by the heterodox.

 

[chicago]

fix:

Oh, yes he is still loved by the heterodox.

He’s loved by everybody in the diocese but the conservatives who hated him. And even they respect him. The honest traditionalists will even readily acknowledge how important and supportive he was of their movement, readily enabling the indult TLM Mass which has led to what St. John Cansius is today.

 

[Fortiterinre]

And even though I am often cheerfully conservative, I appreciated Cardinal Bernadin quite a bit. Wrong on some issues, misguided on others, and simply different from my opinions too, but a powerful and charismatic person who led many to revive their prayer lives and search for holiness. Bishops must teach, but give Bernardin his due for the powerful influence he had on many people to begin and renew their prayer lives. Those of us who love Cardinal George still remember what we loved about Cardinal Bernadin and how much he taught us to pray.

 

[aimee]

Fortiterinre:

And even though I am often cheerfully conservative, I appreciated Cardinal Bernadin quite a bit. Wrong on some issues, misguided on others, and simply different from my opinions too, but a powerful and charismatic person who led many to revive their prayer lives and search for holiness. Bishops must teach, but give Bernardin his due for the powerful influence he had on many people to begin and renew their prayer lives. Those of us who love Cardinal George still remember what we loved about Cardinal Bernadin and how much he taught us to pray.

Yours is one of the best posts on this issue and I do agree