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Donald_S
Guest
I read this response and this was all I could think of, lol.JimR-OCDS:
And if Thomas Aquinas had a rocket he might have gone to the moon.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Apples and oranges comparison
Try to stay within the context of the discussion
Try to stay within the context of the discussion
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GiftofMercy
Guest
Yes in my comments I made the distinction between
‘recite’ and ‘read’ for the purpose of demonstrating how soon a non Latin speaker today would pick up what was going on in Latin Mass.
Thank you
I am also going to say generally to all, the way of Catechesis varies between countries and cultures.
We cannot discount oral tradition , and it is from oral tradition we have both the Old and New Testaments.
Oral tradition bcomes especially important in times of persecution.
Having people who knew and could recite various sections of Scripture and Catholic trdition was the way the Church survived, and continues to survive in times of persecution.
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GordonP
Guest
Very, very simplistically. By means of sermons, bible stories, stories about the saints and events like passion plays. Extremely few peasants could read or understand Latin at all.
Few secular priests could, either, beyond a few phrases. Since books were prohibitively expensive, most parish priests just had to memorize the Mass by ear to the best of their ability. They didn’t have the benefit of textual aids like missals or lectionaries. Things changed at lot after about 1300, when paper became available, which significantly decreased the cost of books, and even more so after about 1450 when moveable type was invented.
Reading and speaking in Latin was largely confined to choir monks and cathedral or collegiate canons, who were almost exclusively of noble birth, and very rarely of peasant background.
Things changed a lot after about 1300, when paper became available, which significantly decreased the cost of books, and even more so after about 1450 when moveable type was invented.
There were no visual clues except at the elevation. At other times, the Mass was conducted behind closed doors behind a chancel screens and curtains that prevented the faithful from seeing and hearing clearly what was happening in the sanctuary. The elevation was the only part of the Mass that they were allowed to clearly see, which lead to an obsession about being able to see it.
It’s doubtful that medieval peasants had any knowledge at all about the sequence of events in the Mass. The only thing that was required of them was their physical presence, and their reverent attention at the elevation. Otherwise they just stood about absorbed in their own private devotions, mostly prayers they had memorized by heart,
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IdaCatholic
Guest
I think every time considered itself superior to all others. But take a peasant in your scenario. A weekly mass atendee would be exposed to more Latin and theology than a college graduate today. They would be catechised in a world without as much secular and atheistic influence and most likely would be more theologically accurate than most Catholics today. So, let’s give the saints who’ve come before a little credit.
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Dan_Defender
Guest
If you were a medieval peasant, you would be illiterate, so it wouldn’t matter if you owned a Bible or not!
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Nmc
Guest
I figured the use of latin was to ensure uniformity and it since it was the language of the empire prior there was already a large depository of works in latin. You should read the book A Canticle for Liebowitz. It really makes one consider the great accomplishment of the Church in preserving her writings and literacy following the fall of the Roman empire. Likewise we are talking pre-gutenberg. No one with held the bible. The fact is that to get one someone had to copy it by hand, and you had to be able to read it. Indeed one could say that the church preserved the great works of the church fathers and classical education. As for Catechesis- think of the Sacred Art in traditional churches. Research scribes, printing press and Douay–Rheims Bible.
Protestants do I admit have an admirable knowledge of sacred scripture.
Protestants do I admit have an admirable knowledge of sacred scripture.
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Nmc
Guest
The Catholic Faith was not just for sundays. The entire culture was steeped in it. So someone was catechized by those they encountered every day. But also I imagine the Lord himself received in Holy Communion writes the law on ones heart. When the local priest asked the peasant farmer what he did when he sat silently in church before the tabernacle every morning his was response was “i look at him and he looks at me.” The creed is obviously the first major act of the church to ensure catechesis. But also we should remember that the church called out heresy and denounced error.
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Nmc
Guest
The Creed to start with.
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JerryZ
Guest
You can counter those uninformed accusations with facts:
Fact 1 : Why do you think that the translation from Greek/Hebrew to Latin is called “Vulgata”
The reason being that “Latin” was the language spoken by the people “peasants”.
This is why the Church commissioned the Bible to be translated.
Fact 1 : Why do you think that the translation from Greek/Hebrew to Latin is called “Vulgata”
The reason being that “Latin” was the language spoken by the people “peasants”.
This is why the Church commissioned the Bible to be translated.
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
In the year 1164 Gustov Fernando invented the first practical folding chair. It wouldn’t seem that that would have anything to do with catechetical formation but it changed the way peasants attended churches. With this new design they could make their own chairs to bring to church. Once they were sitting it was much easier to absorb the nuances of transubstantiation and original sin. If they didn’t like Fr’s homilies they were now able, because of the freedom that the folding chairs afforded them, to go to other churches in order to hear other homilies. Gradually, they could pick up more bits and pieces from priests with different styles resulting in them forming a more complete conscience.
As the practice of bringing folding chairs to Mass become normal, people were increasingly setting up their chairs in odd places like the vestibule. So a need was seen to establish a more ordered congregation while retaining the sitting position which had become known as an essential element for proper reception of catechesis. Eventually the long pew supplanted the ubiquitous folding chair and it’s receptive occupant.
As the practice of bringing folding chairs to Mass become normal, people were increasingly setting up their chairs in odd places like the vestibule. So a need was seen to establish a more ordered congregation while retaining the sitting position which had become known as an essential element for proper reception of catechesis. Eventually the long pew supplanted the ubiquitous folding chair and it’s receptive occupant.
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stpurl
Guest
You are aware that the Bible was written in the vernacular as well as Latin, and that before the ‘reformation’, aren’t you?
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stpurl
Guest
You are aware that the majority of the people, including even nobility, were mostly what we would call ‘illiterate’, up through about the 17th century in Europe, and even later in the U.S. Oral tradition was a long and well-respected way of passing on knowledge.
And I’m sure you’re aware that until the printing press in the late 15th century, all Bibles, Latin and otherwise, had to be copied BY HAND. Bibles were very precious and took years to copy out. That’s why not even ‘every clergy person’ had a Bible. Heck, even some kings didn’t own one.
And I’m sure you’re aware that until the printing press in the late 15th century, all Bibles, Latin and otherwise, had to be copied BY HAND. Bibles were very precious and took years to copy out. That’s why not even ‘every clergy person’ had a Bible. Heck, even some kings didn’t own one.
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stpurl
Guest
Hear hear!
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Justin_Mary
Guest
Thank you. I think that’s probably the answer.
Plays, stories, songs, nursery rhymes… I think that’s how most of the things passed from age to age before “common education.”
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LilyM
Guest
I would have thought then, as now, that when young people were due to receive their first Holy Communion or Confirmation (or prior to baptism if they were not baptised as infants) they would have been prepared by being instructed by local clergy or nuns at some length in all the elements of the Faith, including what was happening at the various points of the Mass.
I seem to remember St Bernadette being (or almost being) held back from receiving First Communion or Confirmation as there were doubts that she had been sufficiently catechised. She apparently never learned French very well, speaking the local tongue of Occitan as her first language.
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po18guy
Well-known member
Sure! But, that’s not what the Lord taught. Reading is dead letters, on a page - not interactive - even if it is scripture. It can be twisted and is twisted - Saint Peter said as much in his second letter. Let’s go way back to the age of Nehemiah. Chapter 8, verses 5-8. Ezra and the scribes read the law to the people but - get this - gave them the sense of the law so that it could be understood.
Reading and deciding God’s truth for oneself did not arrive until Europe, 1,500 years after Christ. Oh! Read the Didaché. A form of catechism written in the apostolic age - during the life of Saint John most certainly. It deals with all practical aspects of the new faith. So???
Not a single jot anywhere in it about any writing of any kind. No books, no scrolls, no letters.
Oral Apostolic teaching.
Reading and deciding God’s truth for oneself did not arrive until Europe, 1,500 years after Christ. Oh! Read the Didaché. A form of catechism written in the apostolic age - during the life of Saint John most certainly. It deals with all practical aspects of the new faith. So???
Not a single jot anywhere in it about any writing of any kind. No books, no scrolls, no letters.
Oral Apostolic teaching.
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GiftofMercy
Guest
Let us not forget the Bible is a living document, it is not a static, dead document.
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
But in the 1500’s Spain, any translation other than Classical Latin, was prohibited.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Why do I feel like you’re attacking me, rather than reading and addressing what I posted ?
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