Mega Church Blunders

[SyroMalankara]

So, what’s your biblical model for leadership? Someone who stepped out of a Leave It To Beaver episode and has a seminary degree? Please. If Jesus teaches us anything it is that the sins of our past do not define our future. Jesus makes all things new-that includes us when we are born again.

oh OK. Who determines when one is ready for leadership? Themselves? Big difference between being reborn and being a leader that others look up to.

If Jeff Johnson, who I know nothing about, has done something scandalous and sinful since he gave his life to Christ and began pastoring a church then he should be called out on it. But what he did before he came to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ should not be held over him as some sort of “you’re not qualified because once you were lost without Christ” garbage. None of us are qualified frankly. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All of us were lost once, but by God’s grace we are found.

I wonder about the stories, are they just anecdotes? We had a now defrocked Fr. Corapi who went around telling tall tales for decades, but eventually it all became undone. Besides, what truly discerned individual would consider himself qualified, no matter what his conversion, recently coming out of drugs, multiple religions, no Biblical or theological training and no commitment? Sure, all newbies have fervour, it is the role of the spiritual elder to properly direct this and not allow the catechumen to get ahead of themselves.
Jeff seems to have so far avoided the pitfalls many others fell into, I don’t know the man, the posted quotes were from others who he has interacted with and their blogged concerns.

 

[ltwin]

oh OK. Who determines when one is ready for leadership? Themselves? Big difference between being reborn and being a leader that others look up to.

He would probably say that he was called to preach by God, and he answered that call. I don’t know enough of the process he went through or the length of time between his conversion and his beginning to preach.

 

[KjetilK]

Yes, KjetilK, above is his bio, so I’m sure he knows that Peter’s original name was Simon–an elementary grade Sunday School student would know that. It doesn’t take any “scholarship” at all to know that fact.

So he made a careless mistake, which was said in an aside to the main point he was making. I suspect he was looking for ways to be a little funny, as some speakers do, in saying Peter’s momma would have called him Cephas, and made a dumb mistake about familiar material. That’s a big deal?? It’s not like he’s misleading people about an important theological matter which they can’t very easily know the truth of themselves.

I sure have made obvious mistakes myself at times in talking about something which I know well. I’m glad people have been gracious enough to not make a big stink about my own dumb mistakes.

It does make me wonder what else he doesn’t know about Scripture. And the fact is that you don’t have to have a six year education to call yourself a pastor. To be a priest in the Church of Norway you need a six year long education - a master’s degree and practical theology.

 

[AbideWithMe]

It does make me wonder what else he doesn’t know about Scripture. And the fact is that you don’t have to have a six year education to call yourself a pastor. To be a priest in the Church of Norway you need a six year long education - a master’s degree and practical theology.

KjetilK—Well, we can see he has a PhD in a New Testament subject from the University of Wales in the UK, and he was a NT professor for twelve years, only becoming a pastor recently.

So, again, my point is that I think he clearly made a forgetful mistake on this fact which could be corrected by a child, rather than that he really has never known that Simon was Peter’s original name. Speaking for myself, I know once in a while I make mistakes like that on subjects I’m very familiar with—sometimes longtime familiarity breeds forgetfulness regarding small facts I learned early on. I appreciate when people who hear me make that kind of mistake act graciously about my blunder.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Maybe he was trying to be funny, who knows, seems the audience didnt get the joke, some may have taken it literally… Anyone read/view the link I posted from Greg Laurie and his “Zionism = Christianity, Divine patriotism” so-called ‘sermon’? That is neither scholarship nor Christian teaching, simply a political view couched in Biblical justifications (like slavery or prohibition)… You gotta love it when these jokers skip letting people know its their opinion, that there are differing yet just as valid (actually more valid, since this is patently erroneous) perspectives, and that everything they think isn’t ‘God says/the Bible says’

SyroMalankara—I could have said that better; by “funny” I was thinking more like he was trying to be “cute” (still not quite the right word for what I have in mind) in talking—in an aside–about Peter’s momma calling him Cephas in that particular tone of voice when he was in trouble as a child.

I notice some public speakers do this kind of thing pretty often. The really great orators usually don’t —think MLK powerfully declaiming “I have a dream…”, “Let freedom ring…”— because they don’t need to be amusing to keep people engaged. I notice other speakers have a more soft-spoken way that keeps people attentive. But, I did watch some YouTube videos from Dr. Moore, and he struck me as the sort of decent but not great speaker who might resort to kind of lame, “cute” attempts at humanizing their subjects in order to keep people relating and caring about the topic.

 

[AbideWithMe]

It does make me wonder what else he doesn’t know about Scripture. And the fact is that you don’t have to have a six year education to call yourself a pastor. To be a priest in the Church of Norway you need a six year long education - a master’s degree and practical theology.

KjetilK—Well, we can see he has a PhD in a New Testament subject from the University of Wales in the UK, and he was a NT professor for twelve years, only becoming a pastor recently.

So, again, my point is that I think he clearly made a forgetful mistake on this fact which could be corrected by a child, rather than that he really has never known that Simon was Peter’s original name. Speaking for myself, I know once in a while I make mistakes like that on subjects I’m very familiar with—sometimes longtime familiarity breeds forgetfulness regarding small facts I learned early on. I appreciate when people who hear me make that kind of mistake act graciously about my blunder.

Also, KjetilK, Boomerang, and others–With just that snippet recorded by Fritz to judge by, what about–hmmm…simply reserving judgment? Why the need to jump on the wagon and broadcast a critical comment at all, instead of remaining silent because we don’t have enough information to form a worthwhile opinion?

 

[Contarini]

So, what’s your biblical model for leadership? Someone who stepped out of a Leave It To Beaver episode and has a seminary degree? Please. If Jesus teaches us anything it is that the sins of our past do not define our future. Jesus makes all things new-that includes us when we are born again.

If Jeff Johnson, who I know nothing about, has done something scandalous and sinful since he gave his life to Christ and began pastoring a church then he should be called out on it. But what he did before he came to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ should not be held over him as some sort of “you’re not qualified because once you were lost without Christ” garbage. None of us are qualified frankly. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All of us were lost once, but by God’s grace we are found.

The issue for me with this story (in terms of his fitness for ministry) isn’t what he may or may have done before his conversion, but whether he is deliberately telling lies now in order to titillate and impress his hearers.

It should be possible to get him to give a time and place for the tsunami story. There was a tsunami in Hawaii, but according to the website he was already converted and part of Calvary Chapel by then.

Here’s a list of tsunamis in Hawaii. There were also tsunamis in 1960 and 1964, but the 1964 one didn’t do much damage according to the website I found, and still doesn’t match the CC website’s phrase “the late 60s.”

If a tsunami really killed a bunch of people on a beach, it should be possible to track down which beach.

It all sounds like a tall tale to me.

Edwin

 

[Brandon_Cal]

KjetilK—Well, we can see he has a PhD in a New Testament subject from the University of Wales in the UK, and he was a NT professor for twelve years, only becoming a pastor recently.

So, again, my point is that I think he clearly made a forgetful mistake on this fact which could be corrected by a child, rather than that he really has never known that Simon was Peter’s original name. Speaking for myself, I know once in a while I make mistakes like that on subjects I’m very familiar with—sometimes longtime familiarity breeds forgetfulness regarding small facts I learned early on. I appreciate when people who hear me make that kind of mistake act graciously about my blunder.

When the OP first brought up this issue of Cephas/Peter/Simon confusion I assumed the OP understood the error as being intimately related to, and therefore undermining of, the point this pastor was trying to make. I finally listened to the audio he provided and now I agree with you. The Cephas/Peter/Simon point was incidental to the pastor’s greater point rendering the error less consequential. I can’t figure out why the OP is so hung up on this especially since the greater point of the pastor’s sermon seemed to be a lauding of tradition! That sermon sounded very Catholic to me! Why get bent out of shape over a single error, which in charity could easily be explained by carelessness rather than malicious intent, and that in no substantive way affects the overarching theme of the pastor’s point? A point with which one expectedly agrees!?

I’ve experienced this same kind of “gotcha!” tactic as a means of calling into question my own credibility and expertise as a university professor. At the end of every quarter the students fill out anonymous instructor evaluations that we instructors get to see once we submit final grades. Almost every term there would be at least one student, usually one who is failing or almost failing the course, who would really take me to the woodshed over a handful of “deceptive statements” I made during the course of an entire term. Things like “This guy is such a MORON!!! He doesn’t know his material AT ALL! During the first month of class he called sodium chloride an acid but anyone with half a brain knows that it’s a base!”

How insightful! Universities really ought to consider granting these lower division, undergraduates who are barely passing chemistry and never ever misspeak, honorary degrees since obviously they’re more credible than a thoroughly published, industry employed, PhD with 50 years experience including biochemical warfare remediation for the US Military, and R&D in some of the country’s largest pharmaceutical companies.

I’m a human, with a human brain, that likes to play funny little tricks on me from time to time. I misspeak, and if I do so I’d appreciate it more that a member of my audience who notices the mistake grant me the curtesy of fixing it by pointing it out to me, not surreptitiously recording me in order to impugn my reputation.

 

[pablope]

So, what’s your biblical model for leadership? Someone who stepped out of a Leave It To Beaver episode and has a seminary degree? Please. If Jesus teaches us anything it is that the sins of our past do not define our future. Jesus makes all things new-that includes us when we are born again.
.

Easy…the CC, and i think the OC… follow the Biblical model exemplified by St. Paul:

First, a calling…as in Acts 9…then humility…submission to authority (the bishop)…as in Gal 2…2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain…and getting sent and ordained…as in Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

 

[AbideWithMe]

When the OP first brought up this issue of Cephas/Peter/Simon confusion I assumed the OP understood the error as being intimately related to, and therefore undermining of, the point this pastor was trying to make. I finally listened to the audio he provided and now I agree with you. The Cephas/Peter/Simon point was incidental to the pastor’s greater point rendering the error less consequential. I can’t figure out why the OP is so hung up on this especially since the greater point of the pastor’s sermon seemed to be a lauding of tradition! That sermon sounded very Catholic to me! Why get bent out of shape over a single error, which in charity could easily be explained by carelessness rather than malicious intent, and that in no substantive way affects the overarching theme of the pastor’s point? A point with which one expectedly agrees!?

I’ve experienced this same kind of “gotcha!” tactic as a means of calling into question my own credibility and expertise as a university professor. At the end of every quarter the students fill out anonymous instructor evaluations that we instructors get to see once we submit final grades. Almost every term there would be at least one student, usually one who is failing or almost failing the course, who would really take me to the woodshed over a handful of “deceptive statements” I made during the course of an entire term. Things like “This guy is such a MORON!!! He doesn’t know his material AT ALL! During the first month of class he called sodium chloride an acid but anyone with half a brain knows that it’s a base!”

How insightful! Universities really ought to consider granting these lower division, undergraduates who are barely passing chemistry and never ever misspeak, honorary degrees since obviously they’re more credible than a thoroughly published, industry employed, PhD with 50 years experience including biochemical warfare remediation for the US Military, and R&D in some of the country’s largest pharmaceutical companies.

I’m a human, with a human brain, that likes to play funny little tricks on me from time to time. I misspeak, and if I do so I’d appreciate it more that a member of my audience who notices the mistake grant me the curtesy of fixing it by pointing it out to me, not surreptitiously recording me in order to impugn my reputation.

That’s exactly the kind of mistake (saying sodium chloride is a acid) that I mean.

And, yes, I also thought the main gist of what Dr. Moore said sounded, well, Catholic. So that’s why I don’t get what the big deal is.

 

[ltwin]

The issue for me with this story (in terms of his fitness for ministry) isn’t what he may or may have done before his conversion, but whether he is deliberately telling lies now in order to titillate and impress his hearers.

It should be possible to get him to give a time and place for the tsunami story. There was a tsunami in Hawaii, but according to the website he was already converted and part of Calvary Chapel by then.

Here’s a list of tsunamis in Hawaii. There were also tsunamis in 1960 and 1964, but the 1964 one didn’t do much damage according to the website I found, and still doesn’t match the CC website’s phrase “the late 60s.”

If a tsunami really killed a bunch of people on a beach, it should be possible to track down which beach.

It all sounds like a tall tale to me.

Edwin

And that’s a legitimate concern. Pastors shouldn’t be liars.I just don’t like it when people say well this person was a hippy and drug user before conversion so he’s obviously not qualified to be a Christian minister. I mean its likely that people came to look at him as a pastor because he welcomed people that would normally have been unwelcome in more traditional and respectable churches and he actually ministered to their communities when other men of God refused to.

 

[AbideWithMe]

The issue for me with this story (in terms of his fitness for ministry) isn’t what he may or may have done before his conversion, but whether he is deliberately telling lies now in order to titillate and impress his hearers.

It should be possible to get him to give a time and place for the tsunami story. There was a tsunami in Hawaii, but according to the website he was already converted and part of Calvary Chapel by then.

Here’s a list of tsunamis in Hawaii. There were also tsunamis in 1960 and 1964, but the 1964 one didn’t do much damage according to the website I found, and still doesn’t match the CC website’s phrase “the late 60s.”

If a tsunami really killed a bunch of people on a beach, it should be possible to track down which beach.

It all sounds like a tall tale to me.

Edwin

I get your concern, because there can be that pressure to exaggerate the craziness of a person’s past life among some Evangelicals and others .

I do know a Catholic online, though, who I really trust, who had some similar bad trips—prior to conversion-- where he honestly believes–still–he saw the devil do crazy things and tell him to do crazy things. Perhaps there’s something about the drug-induced experience itself that leaves people’s memories unable to discern what was a hallucination and what was a real supernatural encounter.

I’ve read, too, that after some “good” trips (such as with monitored hallucinogen use) some people consider their spiritual encounters real even if they’re otherwise critically-thinking people.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

That’s exactly the kind of mistake (saying sodium chloride is a acid) that I mean.

I just did it again!

I posted that without proofreading. I intended to type “Sodium hypochlorite is a base”, not sodium chloride (which is neither a base nor an acid).

Maybe those students were right after all.

 

[Contarini]

I get your concern, because there can be that pressure to exaggerate the craziness of a person’s past life among some Evangelicals and others .

I do know a Catholic online, though, who I really trust, who had some similar bad trips—prior to conversion-- where he honestly believes–still–he saw the devil do crazy things and tell him to do crazy things. Perhaps there’s something about the drug-induced experience itself that leaves people’s memories unable to discern what was a hallucination and what was a real supernatural encounter.

I’ve read, too, that after some “good” trips (such as with monitored hallucinogen use) some people consider their spiritual encounters real even if they’re otherwise critically-thinking people.

Yes, but if he’s claiming that real people died as a result of something he did, then that’s a very serious claim and ought to be verifiable (that the people died, not that it was a result of his “demonic powers”).

Edwin

 

[spedteacherita]

Bonjour, Aimee (ha).

Whether spedteacherita stays Lutheran or becomes Catholic, I think she posts charitably, as well.

Right now, I’m still Lutheran all the way however I do so much appreciate the feedback. Sometimes I feel I get a bit emotional but I think it’s the years of being a teacher that have helped me tone that part of me down and keep my head clear as I respond to whatever I’m faced with.

Thanks to both of you!

 

[SyroMalankara]

I just did it again!

I posted that without proofreading. I intended to type “Sodium hypochlorite is a base”, not sodium chloride (which is neither a base nor an acid).

Maybe those students were right after all.

It happens to all of us, at my parish the Liturgies are sometimes recorded - once in a decade sometime the priest accidentally switched up the Institution Narrative by saying ‘Body’ the second time when he obviously meant ‘Blood’. No one noticed at the time, I just happened to have the recording. We leave the efficaciousness of that Liturgy to God. I don’t think anyone can legitimately accuse the priest of deliberate sin, nor the congregation of idolatry… It was a slip of the tongue of one word the priest says daily for decades.

However, we have a few extra levels of security - if you will - to prevent anyone from running with such mistakes and taking it to absurd levels. What does a church that is run by a pastor and only his interpretation of the Bible rely on when there is an issue? Especially the type that reject our views outright, simply because they are our view?

 

[Fritz6976]

I have to agree. I looked at the OPs link and I think he’s over reacted a bit by calling it a lie, when in fact it’s just a pretty severe case of lack of scholarship.

It seems to me that the OP is reacting to over exposure to that kind of bad teaching. Having been subjected to some similar stuff (as you also were) I can completely understand his feelings but I think he sort of defeats his own purpose with his polemics.

In my experience it is always better to simply show the error in the context of the Bible and authentic scholarship. When one shows the flaws and errors in their “Biblical teaching” then those who follow them have to handle the confrontation between what the Bible really teaches and what the man they have been listening to has told them. That’s where the Holy Spirit always breaks through with the truth and conversion can take place. This is our only real hope.
.

Yes, KjetilK, above is his bio, so I’m sure he knows that Peter’s original name was Simon–an elementary grade Sunday School student would know that. It doesn’t take any “scholarship” at all to know that fact.

So he made a careless mistake, which was said in an aside to the main point he was making. I suspect he was looking for ways to be a little funny, as some speakers do, in saying Peter’s momma would have called him Cephas, and made a dumb mistake about familiar material. That’s a big deal?? It’s not like he’s misleading people about an important theological matter which they can’t very easily know the truth of themselves.

I sure have made obvious mistakes myself at times in talking about something which I know well. I’m glad people have been gracious enough to not make a big stink about my own dumb mistakes.

When the OP first brought up this issue of Cephas/Peter/Simon confusion I assumed the OP understood the error as being intimately related to, and therefore undermining of, the point this pastor was trying to make. I finally listened to the audio he provided and now I agree with you. The Cephas/Peter/Simon point was incidental to the pastor’s greater point rendering the error less consequential. I can’t figure out why the OP is so hung up on this especially since the greater point of the pastor’s sermon seemed to be a lauding of tradition! That sermon sounded very Catholic to me! Why get bent out of shape over a single error, which in charity could easily be explained by carelessness rather than malicious intent, and that in no substantive way affects the overarching theme of the pastor’s point? A point with which one expectedly agrees!?

I’ve experienced this same kind of “gotcha!” tactic as a means of calling into question my own credibility and expertise as a university professor. At the end of every quarter the students fill out anonymous instructor evaluations that we instructors get to see once we submit final grades. Almost every term there would be at least one student, usually one who is failing or almost failing the course, who would really take me to the woodshed over a handful of “deceptive statements” I made during the course of an entire term. Things like “This guy is such a MORON!!! He doesn’t know his material AT ALL! During the first month of class he called sodium chloride an acid but anyone with half a brain knows that it’s a base!”

How insightful! Universities really ought to consider granting these lower division, undergraduates who are barely passing chemistry and never ever misspeak, honorary degrees since obviously they’re more credible than a thoroughly published, industry employed, PhD with 50 years experience including biochemical warfare remediation for the US Military, and R&D in some of the country’s largest pharmaceutical companies.

I’m a human, with a human brain, that likes to play funny little tricks on me from time to time. I misspeak, and if I do so I’d appreciate it more that a member of my audience who notices the mistake grant me the curtesy of fixing it by pointing it out to me, not surreptitiously recording me in order to impugn my reputation.

Okay, here is what I did. To be fair, I purchased that whole sermon. I didn’t want to give just a small dosage but let people hear the full speech and hear for themselves. I admit that it’s not that big of a deal but imagine sitting in the church for over 2 years and not wanting to be there hearing little jabs at the CC here and there eventually a person gets frustrated.
Anyways, this sermon goes off a cliff for me at th 20:00 in mark and for those of you that know bible history you’ll notice that the Catholic Church is never mentioned thus explaining why Dr. Moore danced around the while Cephas, Peter meaning “Rock” thing. He’s trying to subtly use the old protestant apologetics by not referring Peter as the rock, ENJOY…

vocaroo.com/i/s0c27aKiexZi

 

[Reuben_J]

Okay, here is what I did. To be fair, I purchased that whole sermon. I didn’t want to give just a small dosage but let people hear the full speech and hear for themselves. I admit that it’s not that big of a deal but imagine sitting in the church for over 2 years and not wanting to be there hearing little jabs at the CC here and there eventually a person gets frustrated.
Anyways, this sermon goes off a cliff for me at th 20:00 in mark and for those of you that know bible history you’ll notice that the Catholic Church is never mentioned thus explaining why Dr. Moore danced around the while Cephas, Peter meaning “Rock” thing. He’s trying to subtly use the old protestant apologetics by not referring Peter as the rock, ENJOY…

vocaroo.com/i/s0c27aKiexZi

I just made myself a bit generous and listen to his sermon. Quite a nice fellow, probably sounds a bit like Scott Hann though Hann is a Catholic and he is not. I like it when he speaks on the reliability of the Bible. I just like it when people talk about the Bible in that way because it endorses the scripture that the Catholic Church gave. He trims his version of the Bible though, saying it has only sixty-six books but then he is a Protestant. He, I mean his predecessor, must have held a council of their own to decide which books to be omitted from the original text.

But I stopped listening after the part on Cephas. He said that Cephas was Peter’s name from childhood. This is definitely not a simple mistake but rather his interpretation – that Cephas was a given name since childhood. So he introduces a new theology here, at least differing from those scholars who believe that Cephas was a name given by Jesus for Simon son of Jonah. With that he does not have to explain the significance of the name changed. Well, obviously he has to interpret the Bible to fit his theology.

I sympathize with you that you should endure all these sermons which contradict Catholic teaching, you being a Catholic yourself. You must be indeed a wonderful man, a wonderful husband to do so for the sake of your wife. I personally do not go to Protestant services, never has been, except for a couple of occasions to attend some conferences on goodwill basis. The reason is I do not need to and besides different theologies do not upbuild my spiritual life. If I want to know about their belief I would ask or search from books and libraries.

God bless.

Reuben

 

[Thorolfr]

Well, obviously he has to interpret the Bible to fit his theology.

And Catholics don’t interpret it to fit their theology?

 

[SyroMalankara]

And Catholics don’t interpret it to fit their theology?

No actually, it doesn’t matter a wit to the Church what anyone’s personal theology is; the Church’s theology is Truth, one can come to it kicking, screaming, disagreeing, pouting, shouting, or just accept it and keep it simple. Either way, one’s personal theology isn’t anything but speculation - the Church’s is standard.