Memory in Heaven?

[scameter18]

I have a quick question: when we die, for those of us who go to Heaven (and I include here the eventual residence of the saints in the New Heaven and Earth after the Resurrection, which will basically be Heaven anyways, but that’s another topic!), will we still remember everything that we did and experienced in life? It seems to me that we will, simply because Christ and the saints obviously remember their lives or else their intercessory familiarity with us would be less real than it actually is. However, after the Resurrection, I would think we would not remember bad things that had happened, in order that our new lives will be completely without grief. Thank you all and God bless.

 

[centurionguard]

I have a quick question: when we die, for those of us who go to Heaven (and I include here the eventual residence of the saints in the New Heaven and Earth after the Resurrection, which will basically be Heaven anyways, but that’s another topic!), will we still remember everything that we did and experienced in life? It seems to me that we will, simply because Christ and the saints obviously remember their lives or else their intercessory familiarity with us would be less real than it actually is. However, after the Resurrection, I would think we would not remember bad things that had happened, in order that our new lives will be completely without grief. Thank you all and God bless.

I think the first thing to realize is what Heaven is as the Catholic Church describes it.
newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

APOCALYPSE - Chapter 21
haydock1859.tripod.com/id307.html

1 And* I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was past away, and the sea is now no more.

2 And I, John, saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people: and God himself with them shall be their God:

*4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow, shall be any more; for the former things are passed away.

5 And he who sat on the throne, said: *Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, for these words are most faithful and true.

6 And he said to me: It is done: I am alpha and omega; the beginning and the end. To him that thirsteth I will give of the fountain of the water of life, gratis.

7 He that shall overcome, shall possess these things, and I will be his God; and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their portion shall be in the pool burning with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

To me Heaven is a place of utter happiness and peace beyond any poetic description of beauty humanly conceived in wonder. A place where you soul has been purified in the fires of perfection becomes one in complete union with the Bridegroom of Christ.

The memories of our past human life would melt away into nothingness. Nothing survives in heaven except perfection in God. If anything survives in goodness in our past lives it would be the joy and hope of seeing our loved ones. But their focus as our focus would always be with our Heavenly Bridegroom in Jesus our Savior in the Mystery of the Holy Trinity. No sadness exist in heaven.

 

[JerryZ]

I have a quick question: when we die, for those of us who go to Heaven (and I include here the eventual residence of the saints in the New Heaven and Earth after the Resurrection, which will basically be Heaven anyways, but that’s another topic!), will we still remember everything that we did and experienced in life? It seems to me that we will, simply because Christ and the saints obviously remember their lives or else their intercessory familiarity with us would be less real than it actually is. However, after the Resurrection, I would think we would not remember bad things that had happened, in order that our new lives will be completely without grief. Thank you all and God bless.

If we are partakers of the Divine vision won’t we also be able to see the whole salvation plan which would make us finally understand even the “bad” parts that happened to us as a part of that plan?

 

[revert_jen]

If we are partakers of the Divine vision won’t we also be able to see the whole salvation plan which would make us finally understand even the “bad” parts that happened to us as a part of that plan?

This.

We will not have to forget things that happened in order to take joy in them. If we are in Heaven, all things that happened to us or that we did will be part of our journey and therefore sources of joy. Even bad things we did, we can take joy in because they show God’s great love and forgiveness.

That’s how it appears to me, anyway.

–Jen

 

[Julia_Mae]

I However, after the Resurrection, I would think we would not remember bad things that had happened, in order that our new lives will be completely without grief. Thank you all and God bless.

It seems to me that we will remember the bad things, but we will have perfect understanding of them and they will not cause us grief but increase our knowledge and compassion.

 

[GEddie]

This.

We will not have to forget things that happened in order to take joy in them. If we are in Heaven, all things that happened to us or that we did will be part of our journey and therefore sources of joy. Even bad things we did, we can take joy in because they show God’s great love and forgiveness.

That’s how it appears to me, anyway.

–Jen

Consider that the worst thing that can happen to someone is to be nailed to a cross; and conversely one of the most hideous actions is to be involved in doing it to somebody; yet our LORD has kept, not only the memory in HIS head, but the scars in HIS hands and feet!

Since those limbs are everlasting, so is the memory of the cross.

I’d say that just as the Jews still commemorate the escape from Egypt (even though no-one alive today was involved in it), we will take joy in the things we overcame in making our way to life everlasting.

in any case, you wouldn’t be “you” without memory. So yes, I say it will be there.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Poseidon]

Consider that the worst thing that can happen to someone is to be nailed to a cross; and conversely one of the most hideous actions is to be involved in doing it to somebody; yet our LORD has kept, not only the memory in HIS head, but the scars in HIS hands and feet!

Since those limbs are everlasting, so is the memory of the cross.

I’d say that just as the Jews still commemorate the escape from Egypt (even though no-one alive today was involved in it), we will take joy in the things we overcame in making our way to life everlasting.

in any case, you wouldn’t be “you” without memory. So yes, I say it will be there.

ICXC NIKA

I can think of a lot of things worse than being nailed to a cross.

 

[Michael19682]

If we are partakers of the Divine vision won’t we also be able to see the whole salvation plan which would make us finally understand even the “bad” parts that happened to us as a part of that plan?

A interesting and thought provoking comment. I am of the opinion that there is no evil in Heaven. But wouldn’t memory of sin, if such sin were real action taken place on a real earth, at least tempt the heavenly being toward sin, much as in the same way a person can be tempted in thought in his earthly body/mind? If such temptation is evil, then it can’t exist in Heaven. If memory is how it begins its metamorphosis to temptation, then memory is evil, or at the very least an aider and abettor of evil. It should therefore be logically banned from Heaven.

Big problem for that theory in regards memory is Jesus’s teaching: He taught only what the Father told him; his words will not pass away; etc. It seems only apparent that we would recall his words in Heaven. Since we hear them on Earth, memory would be of good aid in that regard.

 

[paduard]

It seems to me that we will remember the bad things, but we will have perfect understanding of them and they will not cause us grief but increase our knowledge and compassion.

I’m inclined to go along with that idea. But then of course until we get there we won’t really know for certain; but nevertheless I think there is nothing wrong in expressing reasonable opinions.

God Bless

 

[Michael19682]

I’m inclined to go along with that idea. But then of course until we get there we won’t really know for certain; but nevertheless I think there is nothing wrong in expressing reasonable opinions.

God Bless

Couldn’t that be a cause or occasion for fighting; dissension. I’m not sure it is germaine, but is it that heaven is a perfect millieu, or that we have been perfected there?

 

[GEddie]

is it that heaven is a perfect millieu, or that we have been perfected there?

I’d say not either-or, but both-and.

ICXC NIKA

 

[J_Peterson]

I don’t think so. Our memories are in the brain which will rot after death. Maybe after the resurrection? The Treatise on Purgatory by Saint Catherine of Genoa says that nothing is remembered of life because that would turn you away from God and towards your self.

 

[Michael19682]

I don’t think so. Our memories are in the brain which will rot after death. Maybe after the resurrection? The Treatise on Purgatory by Saint Catherine of Genoa says that nothing is remembered of life because that would turn you away from God and towards your self.

I’m very involved in studying other things; but could you address what that treatise says in regards what the souls in purgatory make of their lives? I mean, without memory of how they got there, it seems impossible to understand how they could accept such an existence.

 

[J_Peterson]

I’m very involved in studying other things; but could you address what that treatise says in regards what the souls in purgatory make of their lives? I mean, without memory of how they got there, it seems impossible to understand how they could accept such an existence.

Here’s a quick excerpt.

From here: catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/purg2.php

*They see nothing but the operation of the divine goodness which is so manifestly bringing them to God that they can reflect neither on their own profit nor on their hurt. Could they do so, they would not be in pure charity. They see not that they suffer their pains in consequence of their sins, nor can they for a moment entertain that thought, for should they do so it would be an active imperfection, and that cannot exist in a state where there is no longer the possibility of sin.

At the moment of leaving this life they see why they are sent to purgatory, but never again, otherwise they would still retain something private, which has no place there. Being established in charity, they can never deviate therefrom by any defect, and have no will or desire, save the pure will of pure love, and can swerve from it in nothing. They can neither commit sin, nor merit by refraining from it.*

 

[paduard]

I’d say not either-or, but both-and.

ICXC NIKA

Good compromise methinks.

 

[Michael19682]

Here’s a quick excerpt.

From here: catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/purg2.php

Thank you J_Peterson. That is brilliant material. and it sounds then like a place where one simply “waits”. Where one’s upward progress toward higher heaven is a done deal with only regard to the passage of time. My question to you: what value is it consciously for the passerbys in purgatory? It looks to me like their existence and the traditional understanding we have of it is solely for the benefit of the “onlookers” that we are. Those there seem akin to sleepwalkers who will awake to heaven some day, and only then be awake. I guess I’ll have to delve into the material further; but if you care to respond, please do and thank you for the material you presented.

 

[Michael19682]

Here’s a quick excerpt.

From here: catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/purg2.php

Could they do so, they would not be in pure charity. They see not that they suffer their pains in consequence of their sins, nor can they for a moment entertain that thought, for should they do so it would be an active imperfection, and that cannot exist in a state where there is no longer the possibility of sin.

Have they lost their free will? in that there is no possibility of sin?

 

[J_Peterson]

Thank you J_Peterson. That is brilliant material. and it sounds then like a place where one simply “waits”. Where one’s upward progress toward higher heaven is a done deal with only regard to the passage of time. My question to you: what value is it consciously for the passerbys in purgatory? It looks to me like their existence and the traditional understanding we have of it is solely for the benefit of the “onlookers” that we are. Those there seem akin to sleepwalkers who will awake to heaven some day, and only then be awake. I guess I’ll have to delve into the material further; but if you care to respond, please do and thank you for the material you presented.

That’s a good question but I’m not sure I can answer it. I’m more curious what others think about it. Here’s a quote from the introduction to “On Prayer and The Contemplative Life.” by Thomas, Aquinas (intro by VINCENT MCNABB, O.P., S.T.L.). Aquinas was speaking to his dead friend.

“What about that question we have so often discussed together: Do the habits we have acquired here abide with us when we are in our Fatherland?" But the other replied: "Brother Thomas, I see God, and you must ask me nought further on that question.”

It seems that union with God entails the total loss of our sense of self. If you think about it, it would be true freedom. Hell may be a soul eternally searching for a self that no longer exists. Sorry for being brief, I need to bone up on my theology plus I’m typing on an iPad which can be annoying

 

[GEddie]

That’s a good question but I’m not sure I can answer it. I’m more curious what others think about it. Here’s a quote from the introduction to “On Prayer and The Contemplative Life.” by Thomas, Aquinas (intro by VINCENT MCNABB, O.P., S.T.L.). Aquinas was speaking to his dead friend.

“What about that question we have so often discussed together: Do the habits we have acquired here abide with us when we are in our Fatherland?" But the other replied: "Brother Thomas, I see God, and you must ask me nought further on that question.”

It seems that union with God entails the total loss of our sense of self. If you think about it, it would be true freedom. Hell may be a soul eternally searching for a self that no longer exists. Sorry for being brief, I need to bone up on my theology plus I’m typing on an iPad which can be annoying

That sounds more like Buddhist nirvana than Heaven. We do not “merge” with God; we retain our being.

And what about the bodily resurrection? Billions of bodies; none of whom has an individual mind any more?

I’d understand “union with God” as more like what our LORD had with YHWH and the Holy Spirit. HE was not the Father or the Holy Spirit, and did not become either of them even after undergoing death, although they were united.

I think the difficulty lies in the word “self”. In English, that word carries too many negative connotations (I.e. selfishness, self righteousness, self absorption) that we do not want to imagine in Eternity. I’d use the term “individual being” instead, although it is more cumbersome.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Michael19682]

That sounds more like Buddhist nirvana than Heaven. We do not “merge” with God; we retain our being.

And what about the bodily resurrection? Billions of bodies; none of whom has an individual mind any more?

I’d understand “union with God” as more like what our LORD had with YHWH and the Holy Spirit. HE was not the Father or the Holy Spirit, and did not become either of them even after undergoing death, although they were united.

I think the difficulty lies in the word “self”. In English, that word carries too many negative connotations (I.e. selfishness, self righteousness, self absorption) that we do not want to imagine in Eternity. I’d use the term “individual being” instead, although it is more cumbersome.

ICXC NIKA

Referring to the bold only: It’s becoming very tricky these days to make phraseology like “In English.” There might be one true Church, but there are many cohorts of users of English; and just as it is painfully and regretfully obvious to Catholics that not all share in our beliefs derived or even directly read and seen in the scriptures, so do not all share our individual beliefs in what constitutes negative connotation in English, or what, even, English, and language in general might be.
My reading of J_Peterson’s post was that he meant loss of self interest, and so absorption was with respect to that part of us that says, in imitation of the Lord, “Not as I will but as you do.” If this weren’t so, I would be inclined to agree that appealing to the Saint’s, of whose corpus “even the least of which is greater than the greatest on earth,” would be fruitless with regard individual patronhood, i.e., you might as well just pick a Saint’s name out of a jar instead of knowing who and why you are talking to a particular one.