Men and Liturgical Music

[Usige]

There is merit to forming mens’ choirs/scholas for musical reasons, just as for the women (note the best selling classical CD at the moment is of a schola of Missouri nuns). There’s a “need” for such, just as there is for gender based barbershop quartets. They all have a place in the spectrum of aural pleasure in music.

Success alone builds success.

I think there is a lot of merit to that observation. Men need to see and hear men sing. If you see a choir with 10 women and 1 man most men won’t be encouraged to sing. On the other hand if men, and especially young boys, see other men singing together they are more likely to think it’s “cool” and will want to join in.

 

[Elisabeth51]

Oh dear Lord, let me vent…

Yes, there is a major problem with effeminate hymns (I am hesitant to call these songs hymns) in that men simply won’t sing them. I can’t tell you how many Offertories I’ve sat through in which the only people singing were our four person choir and a few of the women in the pews. Never mind the fact that I think that the Offertory is a bad time to expect people to sing anyway…

Occasionally we have a man who is a trained singer and he sings everything, and very loudly, even when he is not in the choir. Other than him, however, no, most men at my parish don’t sing anything unless one of the more classic selections is chosen.

I’ve always thought the ordinary parts of the Mass should usually be the purview of everyone: the Kyrie, Gloria, etc. So I say use the simple chant settings in the Missal, or pick a Mass like de Angelis from the Gradual. That Mass is so easy to learn! Then pick one for Lent, another for Advent, perhaps a fourth to mix in to give some variety, and you have a whole parish repertoire for the entire year. Four simple chant settings should be eminently doable for any parish.

Now to continue about the variable parts of the Mass. Frankly it doesn’t bother me if the choir is the only part of the church singing the Offertory or the Communion. At the entrance and perhaps at the recessional, have a hymn if you like, but please make sure it is a classic, or something that is as good as a classic.

My ideal world for the variable parts of Mass for the OF excluding the music surrounding the readings would be this:

Procession: a well-known hymn or perhaps an organ piece
Entrance to the altar: the Introit of the day
…
Offertory: the Offertory for the day, and if necessary, a motet or another short piece
Communion: the Communion for the day, and if necessary, another piece
Recessional: a well-known hymn or perhaps an organ piece

If you are wondering why I have a processional hymn and the Introit, my reasoning is simple. I think the Propers are all around superior in every single way to hymns. This is self-evident from legislation and tradition. However, I recognize that people like hymns, and I see value in them. I think the best times for hymns are the procession and the recession. So while the procession is making its way to the altar, sing a few verses of Holy God, We Praise Thy Name. Slow down the procession if you have to. Then, while the procession enters the sanctuary, while the priest(s) and deacon(s) are kissing the altar, and during the incensing if there is incense, and while ministers go to their places for the Sign of the Cross, have the Introit sung. If it takes only 20 seconds for this to happen in toto, then sing only a single verse of the Introit. If the procession is large and it takes several minutes, sing the whole thing. It can be repeated over and over again.

Basically what I have done is I have taken what is done at average EF High Masses and I’ve applied it, with a few very minor tweaks, to the OF.

In such a situation I think we find an excellent balance of hymns to Propers, and I think men will be very receptive of such an arrangement. Oh, and please sing your priest’s parts!

I go to a TLM parish and everyone sings their parts–men, women, children. No problem. This was not the case in the English NO Masses, where, as has been said, a handful of people sang.

 

[Usige]

Hey! That’s not fair! If it were up to me, I’d rarely choose the newer or older “flowery” hymns and I’m a woman. Men usually choose the hymns here (at the request of the priest), so it’s not me choosing the flowery hymns.

To be fair, the dreadful choice of hymns in our OF parish are also selected by a man. Then again he’s a tenor so I don’t expect him to know the range men actually sing in.

 

[andrewstx]

Usige, I’ve noticed a LOT of men who speak in an average male voice but who, when pressured to sing, do so in a voice that is way too high for their abilities. I’ve noticed this with priests as well who sing the prayers. I’ve had a priest tell me he felt awkward when he sings the collect, and I said he should lower his voice to a more natural speaking level, and it worked wonders.

Exactly, many of the hymns used today are just pitched way too high too expect much male participation.

Not everyone is a soprano or tenor. Maybe reintroducing singing in parts SATB would help a great deal. Instead of unison only which lends to high pitched singing.

 

[YoungTradCath]

This is questionable. You are thinking of De Musica Sacra. Paragraph 73 prohibits the use of projectors. However, paragraph 71 prohibits the use of recorded sound during mass, and it is frequently ignored by bishops, who are entrusted with the interpretation of liturgical law.

I think the best way to reconcile this is to say that either Musicam Sacram in 1967 superseded De Musica Sacra, or that the law on music in liturgy was reordered by the Code of Canon Law in 1983, and thus earlier documents like De Musica Sacra no longer carry the force of law. Since neither later document discusses projectors or recorded music, the canon law angle is the stronger argument because Canon 20 allows for an entire topic to be reordered.

Wait what, who uses canned music at Mass?

 

[curlycool89]

With all due respect, Father, no, men would NOT sing if you replaced the hymns with chant.

Thank you Cat! My experience is that I’ve been singing since I was young. I’m not a professional by any means, but can read music from band and choir in school/high school.

I don’t know why some people here seem to think that chant is some kind of magical cure-all, but chants would probably get less participation than hymns because they seem like more of a “private” thing (for only a few people) vs. hymns which are designed for many people.

Chant is harder to do than hymns. You have to keep a steady note often, which most people don’t have the capacity to do (I’m sorry, it’s true). The other thing is that chant is not as well-defined as music and most people end up doing it wrong because of that.

From my experience of guys chanting, they want to do it far too low (I’m a tenor. I can’t sing that low), far too slow, and hold notes for far too long (especially at the end of a line). This is even after being instructed to do it the right way (light, quick, and succinct). If you can’t get people to do chant correctly, it sounds horrible.

There are several reasons why men in the United States do not sing.

Yes, one of the reasons is songs and hymns that are somewhat effeminate in their melody and words. But it would be a bad mistake to conclude that this is the primary reason why men do not sing in the Mass. If you look at many of the traditional hymns, the language is so flowery that you can smell it, and many of these hymns have a mincing melody that is hardly masculine.

I agree. I don’t see why people bring this out as a reason, because older songs are sometimes just as emotional and affective.

There is a third reason why men don’t sing, and all the men and boys know it, but they don’t voice it around priests. I’ll come right out and say it–many boys and men consider singing “gay.” It’s amazing that with all the push for gay marriage and gay rights and gay acceptance, that men in the U.S. actually think that singing is “gay” (and why is that “bad?” if gay marriage is OK?) , but they do, just like they consider the difficult sport of figure skating “gay.”

I wish this wasn’t true, but it is. What is our current major pop culture male singing example? High School Musical and the like.

It probably didn’t help that in the past (in the Church and outside) the male singers were often eunuchs, giving the impression that singing is only for the “weird ones”.

Also, most people in the U.S. do not read music at all, so if the chant notation is given to them, they won’t know what to do with it. From what I’ve seen in Catholic parishes, very seldom is the notation for a chant given to the congregation, so we have no choice but to attempt to learn it “by ear.”

I will just come out and say this: I hate chant notation. Give me modern notation in Treble clef (I learned a treble clef instrument, so I read it better) any day of the week over chant notation. Give me ties and slurs over the often confusing multi-note patterns of chant that can apparently be arbitrary if you feel like. Give me proper and consistent timing that I can count out instead of the arbitrary length in chant (and like I said, it often means it’s held way too long).

Finally, most people in the U.S. do NOT know how to sing correctly, and so they sing through their noses, deep in their chests (including the women), and they use “pop” techniques like “scooping.” All of these singing techniques make chant especially sound just awful.

Chanting + scooping is probably the worst sound you will ever hear. And most people do it because they can’t find notes because they never practice singing.

Do you understand what I’m saying? People who can’t sing can’t sing chant! Those people who say, “Chant is easier,” are saying that because they like chant and are able to sing. But they’re wrong when it comes to most other people!

Absolutely agreed. Chant is harder to do correctly and if not done well sounds terrible.

 

[Sarabande]

.

It probably didn’t help that in the past (in the Church and outside) the male singers were often eunuchs, giving the impression that singing is only for the “weird ones”.

Not quite true, as male singers were not often eunuchs. Many were just normal guys. There were male singers, called “castrati” who were fully or partially castrated before puberty to create an “other-earthly” sound with their voices. It was mostly popular in Italy and they had a “short” hey-day. The pope loved the sound so much that he eventually got rid of the countertenors (which I don’t blame, as I don’t like the sound of most countertenors) from the choir and replaced them with these castrati. That said, the Church also did not approve of it, as it was mutilation, but because they were there, they were able to utilize their unearthly, angelic sounds for mass and because “good” women, at that point, were not permitted to sing in choirs or perform in public. The operatic castrati were like the rock stars of their day. Women (and men) went crazy over them and for those men who were partially castrated, women of lesser morals saw it as good opportunities to engage in relations without the the risk of getting pregnant. So, they weren’t actually viewed as “weird”, but they were kind of outcasts in society since they were not permitted to marry and lead a typical life. Many of them did not choose castration for themselves. They were children and also many baby boys were castrated by poor parents with the hope that they might be gifted with a beautiful voice and be able to become wealthy and famous with their voice. It was pretty messed up.

 

[Digitonomy]

Wait what, who uses canned music at Mass?

No parishes that I know of.

I pointed out that paragraph 71 of De Musica Sacra prohibits recorded sound during mass. In many dioceses it is routine for the bishop to send a recording of himself reading a message to all the parishes in the diocese, to be played during each mass. That this apparent violation is so common, and the violators are those entrusted to interpret liturgical law, suggests that De Musica Sacra does not carry the force of law.

 

[Phemie]

No parishes that I know of.

I pointed out that paragraph 71 of De Musica Sacra prohibits recorded sound during mass. In many dioceses it is routine for the bishop to send a recording of himself reading a message to all the parishes in the diocese, to be played during each mass. That this apparent violation is so common, and the violators are those entrusted to interpret liturgical law, suggests that De Musica Sacra does not carry the force of law.

The parish I’m in now used to have taped music on Saturday because the organist would only play on Sunday.

 

[Usige]

Exactly, many of the hymns used today are just pitched way too high too expect much male participation.

Not everyone is a soprano or tenor. Maybe reintroducing singing in parts SATB would help a great deal. Instead of unison only which lends to high pitched singing.

A couple years ago I jokingly told my wife that I was going to publish a hymnal with a men’s part (bariton) on one page and women’s (mezo soprano) on the facing page (in blue and pink of course ) The men’s part would be a simple lyrical repetition with only whole notes and basic intervals. The women could have all the quarter, eighth, and sixteenth notes they wanted. I almost wonder if its not such a bad idea to go to two part written for the middle voices.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Hey! That’s not fair! If it were up to me, I’d rarely choose the newer or older “flowery” hymns and I’m a woman. Men usually choose the hymns here (at the request of the priest), so it’s not me choosing the flowery hymns.

Thanks for the reply. It’s a useful reminder that women don’t necessarily select flowery hymns, and that men sometimes do.

 

[YoungTradCath]

No parishes that I know of.

I pointed out that paragraph 71 of De Musica Sacra prohibits recorded sound during mass. In many dioceses it is routine for the bishop to send a recording of himself reading a message to all the parishes in the diocese, to be played during each mass. That this apparent violation is so common, and the violators are those entrusted to interpret liturgical law, suggests that De Musica Sacra does not carry the force of law.

But doesn’t “De Musica Sacra,” if not by what it contains then by its very obvious title, concern only music?

 

[andrewstx]

A couple years ago I jokingly told my wife that I was going to publish a hymnal with a men’s part (bariton) on one page and women’s (mezo soprano) on the facing page (in blue and pink of course ) The men’s part would be a simple lyrical repetition with only whole notes and basic intervals. The women could have all the quarter, eighth, and sixteenth notes they wanted. I almost wonder if its not such a bad idea to go to two part written for the middle voices.

Funny, that is pretty much what happened in the fundamentalist sect I converted from. An example:
sa each day il’l do a golden deed
BT same words repeated
SA by helping those who are in need
BT same words repeated
a few more lines
SA and so I’ll do the best I can
BT slowly the best I can.

The music they sung was hillbillyish dreck. But since they hated any kind of musical instrument in church they all could read and sight sing music and sang in parts.

 

[andrewstx]

Modern technology has made it possible for an organist to programme hymns, and someone else can play the programme so the organist does not have to be present for multiple masses.

Is this forbidden as well?

I think it a good idea with the increasing lack of organists.

It is not recorded music from a machine, it is an actual organ being played.

 

[Elizium23]

Modern technology has made it possible for an organist to programme hymns, and someone else can play the programme so the organist does not have to be present for multiple masses.

Is this forbidden as well?

I think it a good idea with the increasing lack of organists.

It is not recorded music from a machine, it is an actual organ being played.

Yes, it is forbidden. It is recorded music by any definition of the sense.

The piano in my parish came with an attachment whereby it could automatically play recorded tracks sort of like a player piano, but with a 3.5" floppy disk and a baby grand format. I chuckled much when I realized that this is what it was. I don’t think anyone ever used it for that purpose. Certainly not since I joined in 2006. Eventually, after enough pianists complained that the action was very stiff, it was discovered that the “player” mechanism interfered with humans playing the keyboard, so we had the mechanism removed. Only the disk drive on the bottom remained. I guess the piano was just spec’d or donated that way in the beginning and nobody ever gave a second thought that it might be a waste of money.

 

[Digitonomy]

But doesn’t “De Musica Sacra,” if not by what it contains then by its very obvious title, concern only music?

Judge for yourself. De Musica Sacra, paragraph 71:

…absolutely forbidden in liturgical functions and private devotions, whether they are held inside or outside the church, even if these machines be used only to transmit sermons…

I don’t really want to sidetrack this thread any further, I was just trying to make the point that while FrStevenJones holds a reasonable opinion that currently projectors are prohibited at mass, it is also reasonable to think the contrary, that the prohibition is no longer in effect.

 

[TCCOV]

@Cat, a little off topic.
Been at this a while, 43 years professionally. Undergrad/Masters/post grad degrees in Choral and Church.
Square notes and four lines are the “Bomb.” My wife felt like you until she went to Compline at her first CMAA colloquium. Then she did the basic level week of Chant Intensive (didn’t hurt that it was in New Orleans (I did master level). Now she’s convinced she’s a better neume reader than I! But we’ve parlayed our experience to both schola and ensemble via learning how to “clef” and “mode” the Simple English Propers.
Square and round don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[Cat]

Regarding songs and hymns that are “too high” for most men:

This is bunk!

I did a study several years ago. I took the ten contemporary hymns that are used most often in Mass, and I took the ten traditional hymns that Catholics here on CAF mention as their favorites.

I compared the ranges.

The traditional hymns were consistently HIGHER, and had higher notes, often going to the E above middle C and higher.

But here’s the main thing, men–NONE of the hymns in our hymnals, either traditional or contemporary, are too high.

These hymns are all written in a range that altos and basses should be able to attain, even Bass II and Alto II, should be able to attain. If you check out the traditional ranges for Alto and Bass, you will see that the range goes pretty darned HIGH.

Men, you only THINK the hymns are “too high” because YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO SING CORRECTLY!

So what is the answer? Whining here on CAF about “effeminate hymns” and ragging tenors and sopranos? Being lazy and singing all hymns in the “Ol’ Man Ribber” voice?

NO! The answer is—MAN UP AND GO LEARN TO SING!!!

Yes, it makes me mad when intelligent men hold childish, untrue opinions. Stop making excuses and go learn to sing. That’s all the “too high” thing is–an excuse, and a pretty silly one, since if you learned to sing, you would discover that yes, you CAN hit the notes in most of the hymns in the hymnal. No, you won’t sound like a professional opera soloist, but you will be able to hit these notes without straining your throat or hurting anyone’s ears. Just do it. The time that you spend here on CAF could be spent in a singing class or a with a private voice coach taking a few lessons and learning some proper singing techniques that apparently, you never learned when you were in elementary school (most people under 50 had abysmal music education in the public schools).

I ll accept one excuse for people not singing in church–there are medical conditions that make it difficult for some people, men or women, to sing. COPD is an example. Another example is acalasia, which is what my husband has (but he STILL sings as much as he can during Mass!). A third example is damaged vocal chords due to inflammation, nodules, etc. Allergies can make it difficult to sing. And so can any upper respiratory infection; e.g., a head cold.

But most men and women are able to sing and should try to learn how to do it. It’s not that hard, and it’s kind of fun.

Do you all realize that as the Christians were marched into the Roman arenas to meet their horrific death, they SANG together? I can just imagine modern-day Christians marching in -“This song is too high!” “This song is too effeminate!” “This song has a beat!” “This song is too Protestant/Catholic/secular.” “This song is too ancient!” “I can’t pray if we sing this hymn!” How pathetic we are! IF people about to die at the fangs of the lions can sing, so can we.

C’mon, now. Are we real men and women, or babies? The Church gives us the glorious opportunity to sing hymns together during our Mass. If we can’t obey Holy Mother Church when it comes to singing hymns, then why do we think we’re going to be able to obey her when it comes to avoiding sin and living like Christ in our daily lives? Singing is a lot easier than trying to live a holy life!

 

[Usige]

Wow, Cat. Not sure who step on your tail this morning but it might help the discussion if you dial it back a notch or ten.

First off I have 8 years of classical voice training and close to a 3 octave range so I can guarantee you learning to sing ain’t an issue for me.

I will agree with you that most people don’t know how to sing. Or atleast they think they don’t know how. I’ll also agree with an earleir post that most of the issues are likely around the fact that music has become more of a spectator pastime. Up until 20 years ago if you were working and wanted music you couldn’t crank up your portable walkman/CD player/iPod/etc. so you would sing to yourself. Heck its only been in the past 70-80 years that recorded music was available to most people.

That being said its about perception. If all men hear is women with perhaps a smattering of tenors their impression is going to be that its too high. Its less about range than tessitura or vocal texture. I don’t have a bright voice, it is dark and heavy. A tenor singing middle C sounds different than low bases singing middle C. I don’t have absolute pitch so when I hear a bright voice I tend to perceive it as a higher pitch then it really is regardless of the note on the staff. If there are more heavy voices singing it is easier to hear myself singing that note.

As for the harangue about excuses and just growing up… I can say exactly the same about chant. “Nuemens are too hard to read.” “Latin is weird.” “I can’t sing without music.” “Chant is too difficult to learn.” Blah, blah, blah. Grow up and learn to sing. Wow, that argument applies even for music we don’t like, huh?

 

[Digitonomy]

Regarding songs and hymns that are “too high” for most men:

This is bunk!..

The traditional hymns were consistently HIGHER, and had higher notes, often going to the E above middle C and higher.

I noted back in post #17 that traditional hymns frequently suffer from the same problem of a high-pitched melody.

Cat:

NONE of the hymns in our hymnals, either traditional or contemporary, are too high.

These hymns are all written in a range that altos and basses should be able to attain, even Bass II and Alto II, should be able to attain. If you check out the traditional ranges for Alto and Bass, you will see that the range goes pretty darned HIGH.

I’m assuming that these “traditional ranges” are for a singer, presumably in choir, who has warmed up, who knows how to provide proper breath support, etc. This is a different animal from the average man in the pew, who is the nonparticipant we are lamenting. I would also point out that even when I was in choir and regularly singing notes that high, I did not enjoy that aspect of it.

By the way, another contention I made was that many hymns are written with the option of four-part harmony, but just the soprano line is used as the melody, without being transposed, in typical congregational singing at mass. Are you denying this, or just saying it doesn’t matter that altos and basses in the congregation are frequently being asked to sing the soprano line?

Cat:

Men, you only THINK the hymns are “too high” because YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO SING CORRECTLY!..
But most men and women are able to sing and should try to learn how to do it. It’s not that hard, and it’s kind of fun.

This reminds me of the frequent whines we hear about how easy it was for various members to learn unfamiliar words like gibbet and consubstantial, or how easy it was to learn Latin and why can’t everyone make a little effort and learn Latin just like they did. The premise that these things are easy may be true, the problem is that the average person in the pew doesn’t have a goal of being just like you, Cat, or just like the other members I alluded to in my examples. They probably don’t care one way or another, but they really don’t want to do it if it’s going to involve effort. So this is the problem we face, and if we seek active external participation on the part of congregants, lowering some of these obstacles should be considered, even if occasionally that seems to “dumb down” a song or part of the mass.