Men and Liturgical Music

[Sarabande]

But here’s the main thing, men–NONE of the hymns in our hymnals, either traditional or contemporary, are too high.

This is pretty much true. The range for most hymns fall within the middle range of the typical voice - male or female. (Note: Most men tend to have baritone ranges and most women tend to have soprano ranges.) If you look in the hymnal, the average range for most of the hymns falls between C4 to C5, sometimes to the D and E above C5, but some hymnals provide hymns in two different keys for the organist or other instrumentalist. So, if the instrumentalist doesn’t think the congregation would be able to sing the D or E above C5 or vice versa, then they have the option of playing it in the lower or high key.

What I have observed in some hymns, though, is that even if the range is within the typical range of an untrained voice, some composers don’t know how to write for the untrained voice. Writing/Composing for the voice or any instrument is an art. Some of the greatest composers weren’t particularly strong writing for the voice. When my husband first began composing, he wrote a song for me, all within my range, but written in an atypical way that a mezzo would be able to reach or approach certain notes. It’s a learning process for a composer. The composer needs to understand the instrument he/she is writing for. (For instance, some piano scores of orchestral music were obviously transcribed by someone who didn’t understand the piano and how it is played.)

I’ve noticed with some newer hymns, they are written for someone with some vocal training who could easily accomplish, but not so much for the average untrained singer. And as a voice teacher and cantor who listens to the congregation, I see the problems. Two such hymns are “On Eagles Wings” and “I Am the Bread of Life”. The first, sits in the middle register of the voice, but then just jumps down to the lower, chest voice area, without any even transition. I hear people have problems with this hymn all of the time. For the second hymn, it’s all within the range, but there are also very large intervals for the typical untrained voice to naturally and comfortably attain. This is particularly true in the refrain. I think men have an easier time with compositions that are more “traditional” in nature, not because they are lower, (as we both know they are not) but because they are usually written in such a way so that they can evenly and comfortably transition from the lower part of the passaggio to the upper part of it.

 

[Sarabande]

Continued from above:

Another of the problems **today **is that people with untrained voices really don’t know how to sing naturally, anymore, as Cat has pointed out. In the not-so-distant past, people were able to effortlessly go from singing in the natural chest voice (within the lower register of a voice) to their head voice so that they can comfortably reach higher notes without cracking. But in a very short period of time, that natural ability has been lost due to how so many hear music today. So many try to imitate “belters”, such as those who sing like pop or rock singers or the lower-voiced musical theater female singers. It actually isn’t a healthy way of singing for most because everything is sung in the chest voice from the lower to upper registers and it’s very easy to become hoarse and eventually hurt your vocal chords beyond repair. Some voices are made for that kind of singing, but most aren’t and I’ve seen way too many lovely voices basically ruined by trying to sing like that. They either can no longer sing or have taken years to get their voices back. It’s difficult for an untrained voice to also keep up that kind of singing.

I have two older voice students who came to me just so that they could participate at mass better with the hymns. One is a female who at first insisted that she only had the range of Karen Carpenter… really low. She said she could barely sing any of the hymns because they were “too high” and always got hoarse whenever she sang and had to stop singing. As soon as I heard her speaking voice, I knew immediately that she was a soprano and not a low alto. Her problem was that she was trying to sing everything in a chest voice. In just a hand full of lesson, I was able to expand her 5 note low range and even stretch it to the high C (C6) that most trained sopranos can sing. No, she doesn’t sound like an opera singer as she has only had about 10 lessons so far, but she now knows how to negotiate her chest voice all the way up to her head voice. She has a really, lovely natural sound.

The older gentlemen would do the same. He has a naturally strong baritone voice and I have been helping him learn how to negotiate his passaggio in these hymns. Funny thing is that he actually likes the more “flowery” hymns, but he has a more difficult time singing them correctly in terms of rhythm. I do a lot of simple musical training in helping understand the rhythms of these “flowery” hymns, since the rhythms in each verse tends to be different and every once in a while ridiculous for any non-musician to follow (like double dotted 1/8 notes). Rhythmically speaking, he more correct with the more strophic hymns, but that is because they really were written with the non-musician, untrained singer in mind. That is also probably one of the reasons why so many of the great, traditional, Protestant hymns have so much staying power.

It’s also slightly more complicated than to simply tell people to “man up” and sing correctly. When people are now in a culture where this kind of singing is prevalent and often passed off as an “easy” way of singing for the “common man”, it’s a little harder to break that. I think about how so many children today really don’t have a sense of pitch like they did in the past and it takes much longer to teach them to hear the pitches in their heads and to match pitches. That is due to the kind of music they are listening to today. So, think about grown men and women with years of this kind of musical bombardment.

 

[Usige]

I think about how so many children today really don’t have a sense of pitch like they did in the past and it takes much longer to teach them to hear the pitches in their heads and to match pitches. That is due to the kind of music they are listening to today. So, think about grown men and women with years of this kind of musical bombardment.

Yep. I think of things like puirt a beul and Scottish waulking songs (work songs). These songs have strong rhythms and often have nonsense lyrics (something akin to tra la la la la). The rhythm and sound is more important that the actual lyrics so it teaches ear singing which seems to be a lost art.

I think people also tend to forget that many songs from earlier eras were based on the same tune. Often the lyrics were written separately and then fit to an existing tune that might be years or decades removed. Yes it goes the opposite way too, but the point remains that the music and lyrics weren’t often written as a single unit. You could do that because their wasn’t copyrights on the musical score. Having music with similar progressions also taught people to sing by ear. They could predict in their head the next logical progression based on other songs they knew. Even sight reading I am often caught off guard with an unexpected interval or a dotted note that seems to hang on a little too long so I am a half step early or miss the interval.

 

[Sarabande]

Yep. I think of things like puirt a beul and Scottish waulking songs (work songs). These songs have strong rhythms and often have nonsense lyrics (something akin to tra la la la la). The rhythm and sound is more important that the actual lyrics so it teaches ear singing which seems to be a lost art.

I think people also tend to forget that many songs from earlier eras were based on the same tune. Often the lyrics were written separately and then fit to an existing tune that might be years or decades removed. Yes it goes the opposite way too, but the point remains that the music and lyrics weren’t often written as a single unit. You could do that because their wasn’t copyrights on the musical score. Having music with similar progressions also taught people to sing by ear. They could predict in their head the next logical progression based on other songs they knew. Even sight reading I am often caught off guard with an unexpected interval or a dotted note that seems to hang on a little too long so I am a half step early or miss the interval.

Yes, most definitely true.

 

[curlycool89]

As for the harangue about excuses and just growing up… I can say exactly the same about chant. “Nuemens are too hard to read.” “Latin is weird.” “I can’t sing without music.” “Chant is too difficult to learn.” Blah, blah, blah. Grow up and learn to sing. Wow, that argument applies even for music we don’t like, huh?

My preferred one is “Those silly chant people, they can’t even write music correctly!”

Seriously though, the chant staff messes with me. Regular music uses a 5-line staff, while chant only has a 4-line one, and so when I try to read it I always think the notes at the top are higher then they are and notes at the bottom are lower. Oh, and the wandering clef.

There is a reason why music has a standard clef and all notes that are at the same line are the same note. I have no qualms about saying that modern musical notation is far superior to chant notation in usability. If I see a note on the second line for example, I know that’s a G (in treble clef), while in a chant you have to first check where the clef is, and then try and sing your way up/down to find the note.

I also question the usability of chant notation from a standardization perspective. If I hand someone a musical piece in modern notation, they can find the notes and know how long each is to be held and in what key it is in. With chant, if I hand a sheet to 10 people I will get 10 different interpretation. Heck, we were practicing a chant song (a long-metre type) in seminary and most of us where reading is as being a certain way (these notes go with these words) and were told that we were reading it wrong. The ability for someone to pick up a chant piece and know how it’s suppose to be done is very poor.

By the way, another contention I made was that many hymns are written with the option of four-part harmony, but just the soprano line is used as the melody, without being transposed, in typical congregational singing at mass. Are you denying this, or just saying it doesn’t matter that altos and basses in the congregation are frequently being asked to sing the soprano line?

That’s because in most hymn pieces the soprano line is where the melody is written. Altos and tenors usually have some harmony and basses often give supporting notes. You want to sing the most interesting part as a congregation, so it’s the soprano line.

As Cat said though, the melodies are written within the normal voice range of a person. Sometimes for guys that means you have to drop it an octave from where the women are singing. Nothing wrong with that.

This reminds me of the frequent whines we hear about how easy it was for various members to learn unfamiliar words like gibbet and consubstantial, or how easy it was to learn Latin and why can’t everyone make a little effort and learn Latin just like they did.

I think there’s a bit of a difference though.

Singing is something that can be done pretty naturally just by altering vocal cords and using more air. It’s like learning to walk.

Languages are a lot harder (I would know, I’m great at singing and horrid at languages other than english). A different languages follows a completely different paradigm (gendered nouns, declensions, conjugations, word order being important vs. arbitrary). In a language, you could say there are several “modes”: speaking, lecturing, whispering, yelling, singing, etc.

Singing well is a bit different, but I would say it’s more like as running is to walking. It needs a little more coordination and breath support and other things.

I think people also tend to forget that many songs from earlier eras were based on the same tune. Often the lyrics were written separately and then fit to an existing tune that might be years or decades removed. Yes it goes the opposite way too, but the point remains that the music and lyrics weren’t often written as a single unit. You could do that because their wasn’t copyrights on the musical score. Having music with similar progressions also taught people to sing by ear. They could predict in their head the next logical progression based on other songs they knew. Even sight reading I am often caught off guard with an unexpected interval or a dotted note that seems to hang on a little too long so I am a half step early or miss the interval.

That is one criticism that I would give modern hymns, which is that everyone wants to write a whole new song, lyrics and melody.

In the past, as you said, a new song was often fit to a pre-exsiting tune. The Breviary works a little bit both ways. Many songs are written in Long-Metre (LM, 8.8.8.8, that’s 8 syllables) or Common Metre (CM, 8.6.8.6) or 11.11.11.5. CMD (Common metre double, or 8.6.8.6 8.6.8.6) is another common one (I Sing the Mighty Power of God for example) For many of the songs I’d say we don’t really know the “correct” tune, but there are many long-metre tunes (like Old Hundredth) and they can be swapped without much difficulty.

For example, Amazing Grace is written in CM. So is Joy to the World (with the last line repeated a few times). You can sing Amazing Grace to the tune of Joy to the World.

Interestingly enough, the songs that everyone tends to hate in the Breviary are the ones that have awkward melody structures (I’m looking at you Sion Sing), or odd timings (6.6.6.6 - we’ve yet to find a recognizable tune for this one).

If we could encourage writers to write in common metres (like LM, CM, CMD, or 11.11.11.5, or 8.7.8.7) then they can be learned a lot faster because it’s only the words that need to be learned and not words and tune.

 

[englishredrose]

Can I ask what do you mean by singing?

In that our choir love to think the congregation don’t sing. We can’t hear them singing as up in the organ loft and can’t tell some of the time.

But yet the weeks I’m altar serving and pass the congregation in procession I can, even with my bad hearing, can hear they are singing. One man got quite upset last year when a hymn had been taking out of the communion in a bid to try and have a period of time of silence. He liked singing the hymns and liked the music at that time and there was a blow up - as good as mainly because of the tempers concerned rather than the issue. But the men in our congregation from what I can hear do sing.

Just that most people don’t sing up so we can’t actually hear them singing unless you’re there as such. But they do sing and am not sure of the hymns you have provided but we certainly have a mix of hymns. I think plain chant type of music would put most of our church off a while but in time they get used to it as they do new mass settings we bring in time to time. But Anglican men sing as much as Anglican Women in my own experience.

It was though really nice serving on the Altar at festivals when the Deneary was all present and all the priests were also on the Altar, as many as we can fit on, and hear them singing and their voices were really good to listen to as I personally prefer to listen to men, women on the whole too high for my ears. Our church loves it when the priest sings their part of the service which we don’t get every week.

Chants are nice and done well are very nice. I like chants as much as I like other music and in time the congregation would pick up anything as they would hear it often enough but whether the men are more likely to sing a chant to a flowery style hymn I don’t know as the men as do the women sing equally in our church, even singing the bits that actually should be just the cantor accept we are not professional at all and the men sing quietly away to themselves the bits they like singing whether it a solo part or not. I have heard that for myself of the times I have spent in the pew and took all my effort not to lean over and point out that meant to be solo as I could work out, what does it matter, in that the choir can’t hear the people anyway so wont be offended that men are singing the bits they like to sing etc but it did take all my effort not to look or almost nudge. If they are not singing anyway, is it the hymn choice or is it the culture, or are they actually singing, just that they are singing to themselves as such? I don’t know how to help a man to sing if they are not singing. Perhaps a seperate ‘workshop’ for men to go along and learn their parts so they can sing them in the pew as heartily as any women does. As I say, in ours men are singing as much as women regardless of the hymn style as our church just like singing I think from the row of last year

 

[Edmundus1581]

@EnglishRedRose…

Your church music and congregational singing sounds lovely!

Many of us, particularly the converts, know that men can and do sing beautifully in the CofE and Protestant churches! If it hasn’t already been acknowledge in this thread, then it’s about time. Perhaps we can ask why men sing (much) more in other churches. A week ago we had a thread on the topic that (bad) modern Church music is a Protestant influence in the Catholic church, and the proposal was roundly rejected by Catholic lovers of good Church music!

@Cat, Sarabande, Digitonomy, Usige, CurlyCool (apologies if I omitted anyone). Thankyou so much for the informed and thoughtful discussion. This has been an interesting and helpful thread.

My dominant impression of the discussion is that: firstly, we acknowledge that there is a problem with men not singing, and, secondly, it is due to technical matters in the hymns selected, rather than whether they be old or new.

I particularly note the problem that modern songs are just that - “songs” - which each aim to be original in words, metre and melody, whereas traditional hymnody has re-used tunes, metres, and chord progressions, for the very purpose of making them singable.

I don’t know that if has been mentioned already, but I believe it is recognised amongst musicians that men, by nature, have more trouble picking up a tune and holding it than women do. A man can “hear” a tune correctly, but just not get his voice to it. Hence we need to accommodate this natural limitation of men in our liturgical music selection.

It is completely unrealistic to expect the majority of men to train themselves for singing. Whether or not is is reasonable, it is not going to happen. It just isn’t. The way we can train them is by ensuring that most hymns in Mass are ones they can sing comfortably. When they start singing again, they will naturally improve.

 

[Edmundus1581]

…
On the topic of men singing, I want to add my observation **that most men in my parish don’t sing **at all, during any of the hymns or parts of the Mass.
…

I should correct this first statement of mine, which was hasty. I sing in the choir, which faces the congregation, and just last Sunday I took some time to observe the congregation, and on recollection I would say that about half the men made some visible attempt to sing the parts of the Mass, and a few of them sang quite well and audibly. However, few made any attempt to sing the hymns, which were unfamiliar and had startling rhythms.

This difference in level of participation between the parts of the Mass and the hymns is quite instructive. We use the Mass of St Francis, an Australian setting which is modern and somewhat challenging, but also musically satisfying and very sensitive to the words. It has some high notes but leads up to them comfortably. I would say that it is also “forgiving”, in that one can make a mistake without wrecking it or standing out.

So, my observations at my own parish suggest that many men will sing if the music is: interesting, but not too difficult; is forgiving of mistakes; and played regularly enough for them to become familiar with it.

…
I don’t know if it is the common practice in US churches, but in practically all parishes here, we have the words projected on to a screen (power-point, or the older type of projector) to one side of the sanctuary. It doesn’t intrude on or obscure the liturgical action, if you will believe me. It draws people’s heads up which helps voice projection, the words are large and easy to follow along as the hymn progresses, no one has to search for hymn numbers, and it has improved the singing no end (I remember back a couple of decades before we used this sort of system).
…

I agree with all these observations on the practical benefits of using a projector. The participation in singing in our parish has significantly improved with the use of a projector. Our priests have noticed this, from the front, and actually promoted its use when the practice was questioned (on the grounds mentioned in this thread).

I particularly agree with the comment about it raising the head and thus projecting the voice. With the use of hymn books 90% of people, particularly the men, hold the book low and mumble into it. It seems to be “unmanly” to hold a hymn book up and sing out! Again, this seems to be a particularly Catholic phenomenon. Protestant males don’t see their masculinity threatened by singing properly.

 

[quiet52]

I don’t understand everything some of the musicians have written on this thread, but it’s a great discussion.

I live in a multi-cultural city, and have seen the love of music, including religious music, by men from several cultures. That doesn’t mean they participate wholeheartedly in every Mass though.

I’ve noticed that the #1 favorite chant (all ethnic backgrounds, both genders) is the Lord’s Prayer – the traditional a capella one, not the more contemporary one which confuses people because the words were changed. Just wanted to write this before I forgot it.

…There are two reasons why men in the U.S. do not sing, in Mass, or anywhere else.

1. They don’t know how. …
2. Our U.S. musical culture is “spectator” not “participatory.” We attend concerts and watch, but we don’t join choirs and sing…

I think part of it the “spectator” mentality might be that some Catholics have become “consumers” during Mass, with an expectation that everyone else (meaning those who serve in an official capacity) provide a good “experience” for them, the pewsitters. And frankly, when the music ministry all too frequently offers songs which are too difficult to sing, this consumerist attitude is reinforced. Also, sometimes the instrumentation (usually the organ) is too loud, and we can hardly hear ourselves sing, it’s hard to believe we’re expected to sing.

Chant would be utter disaster. In order to sing chant, people have to be able to (1) listen and hear the note pattern OR read the neumes or notes, and (2) sing correctly…

I agree that for the most part, chanting is simply too difficult for most of us. Even those of us who can somewhat read notes don’t know the rhythm, or when to breathe, during some chants, and our mistakes stand out more than singing mistakes would.

I feel irritated when I attend one particular parish, which puts together a booklet for every Sunday (it doesn’t have missalettes or hymn books), and we only get the words for the chants or songs. Sometimes they’re just too complicated to try to sing or chant. Having to struggle to sing creates a distraction from the purpose of singing during Mass – it’s suppose to help lift up our hearts to God in praise, worship, adoration. But if it’s too hard and draws our attention away from God, it’s just better for us not to try to participate, but to silently pray along. And NOT singing is disappointing for us when we like to sing, as limited as our abilities might be.

And singing “simple” pieces is NOT conducive to adult worship.

I don’t know how you define “simple.” It’s not as if we’re singing “Kum-Ba-Ya.” There are some oldies, as well as more contemporary, which are uncomplicated, Jesus-centered, and powerful in worship. The two songs we sang most often decades ago, before Mass was celebrated in the vernacular, were “Come Holy Ghost” and “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” – guess what? They’re simple, familiar, reverent, transcendant, and the rare times they’re sung during Mass nowadays, they’re sung pretty well, even by the younger set.

Father, if you want men to sing, you’re going to have to (1) teach them to sing and (2) somehow reverse the cultural trend from spectating to participation. … But at this time, for some reason, discussion of music in the U.S. Catholic Church is verboten. It just doesn’t happen. It’s a subject that everyone with any authority veers away from, perhaps because they don’t want to start an all-out fight…

I think it’s unrealistic to expect the Church to teach people how to sing, but music directors could make it a whole lot easier I think. Some of us hoi polloi in the pews have respectfully and kindly made reasonable requests of music leaders – usually it’s a plea to lower the range. We are ignored, and sometimes treated with contempt and other poor attitudes by the offended organist or music director. It’s not our “turf” after all. Seriously, I wish pastors would address this poor attitude by some in the music ministry.

We appreciate the talent and dedication of the musicians, don’t get me wrong. But maybe there should be a better balance – make it easier for us to sing Jesus-centered, simple, easy songs most of the time (this is when the congregation sings best) – and some of the time, do your fancy, complicated stuff, and let us sit back and enjoy the beauty of it and lift our hearts up to God silently. Please forgive me for my layman’s terms, like “stuff.”

@Cat, a little off topic.
Been at this a while, 43 years professionally. Undergrad/Masters/post grad degrees in Choral and Church.
Square notes and four lines are the “Bomb.” My wife felt like you until she went to Compline at her first CMAA colloquium. Then she did the basic level week of Chant Intensive (didn’t hurt that it was in New Orleans (I did master level). Now she’s convinced she’s a better neume reader than I! But we’ve parlayed our experience to both schola and ensemble via learning how to “clef” and “mode” the Simple English Propers.
Square and round don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

Ummm, okay. I haven’t an inkling what you’re talking about, sorry.

If you are saying that you and your wife like inspiring, heart-lifting, simple, easy-to-sing, easy-to-breathe, hymns or chants which us non-music-degree Catholics in the pews can usually join in without too much frustration or confusion and without struggling too much, without our ignorance or lack of musical training being made too evident, then I’m 110% in agreement with you.

Thank you for giving glory to God with your knowledge and talent, and for sharing your love of music with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[quiet52]

Regarding songs and hymns that are “too high” for most men:

I compared the ranges.

The traditional hymns were consistently HIGHER, and had higher notes, often going to the E above middle C and higher.

But here’s the main thing, men–NONE of the hymns in our hymnals, either traditional or contemporary, are too high.

These hymns are all written in a range that altos and basses should be able to attain, even Bass II and Alto II, should be able to attain. If you check out the traditional ranges for Alto and Bass, you will see that the range goes pretty darned HIGH.

Men, you only THINK the hymns are “too high” because YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO SING CORRECTLY!
…Yes, it makes me mad when intelligent men hold childish, untrue opinions. Stop making excuses and go learn to sing. That’s all the “too high” thing is–an excuse, and a pretty silly one, since if you learned to sing, you would discover that yes, you CAN hit the notes in most of the hymns in the hymnal…

I ll accept one excuse for people not singing in church–there are medical conditions that make it difficult for some people, men or women, to sing. COPD is an example. Another example is acalasia, which is what my husband has (but he STILL sings as much as he can during Mass!). A third example is damaged vocal chords due to inflammation, nodules, etc. Allergies can make it difficult to sing. And so can any upper respiratory infection; e.g., a head cold.

But most men and women are able to sing and should try to learn how to do it. It’s not that hard, and it’s kind of fun.

Do you all realize that as the Christians were marched into the Roman arenas to meet their horrific death, they SANG together?
C’mon, now. Are we real men and women, or babies?..

Cat, you are uncharitably judgmental in this post.

“NONE of the hymns in our hymnals, either traditional or contemporary, are too high.” Yes, they ARE too high for many of us, Cat. You’re a musician. Most of us aren’t. Yes, most of us enjoy singing during Mass, at least most of the time, but it’s not our faults that we’re not great singers. Don’t put us down.

I am a woman who can sing the low notes, but struggle with high-C and above, especially when my acid reflux is acting up (which 20% of the U.S. population suffers from). Singing the high notes can hurt physically and/or can trigger coughing. So there are many songs I’ll switch octaves in – and I’ve noticed men who do the same thing, because the key is simply too high. Guess what – When I occasionally lead the singing during weekday Masses, men and women join in because I start low, and I choose familiar songs. Nothing fancy or complicated, because I don’t know fancy and can’t do complicated.

BTW, you have no idea what range the early Christian martyrs sang or chanted in, and have no musical standards to compare.

Thank you Cat for building up the Kingdom with your ministry. We need you. Don’t judge us or be mad at us, though, okay? Be glad! It’s about worshiping our Lord together, after all, and what you do helps us to love Him. I think more of us than you know appreciate the gifts shared by our singers, organists, pianists, etc.

 

[quiet52]

As a priest, I’ve seen that men often don’t sing during Mass. Further, I’ve noticed a lot of the hymns being sung are sort of emotional and quite expressive in a way that men might not be comfortable with. I’m thinking of hymns such as “Here in this place” and “Sing Out, Earth and Sky”. I wonder of we were using a chanted antiphons instead, or more traditional hymns, would more men sing?

Father I know male choir singers and I’ve seen plenty of men in the pews sing, but then again, there are many men and women who don’t sing. My area has a different cultural mix than yours does, though.

I am a woman and don’t like the two songs you mentioned. I can’t relate to “dance to the life around you” and I don’t like the melody much. Maybe men relate even less, and feel silly singing that stuff, though I doubt it’s just a male aversion. I usually (but not always) sing songs I’m not crazy about – maybe doing that – “going along” – is more of a female thing to do?

I think more men join in the traditional hymns than in some of the more modern “mushy” songs (I’m not saying that all modern songs are mushy). Recently, I was wondering if men “like” battle songs – the choir led “Battle Hymn of the Republic” and the men were L…O…U…D, lol. (I hope readers won’t start debating in this thread whether that’s an appropriate song for Mass … but I was impressed by the gusto. Also, the key was lowered, which made it easier to sing - no high-D).

 

[markomalley]

As a priest, I’ve seen that men often don’t sing during Mass. Further, I’ve noticed a lot of the hymns being sung are sort of emotional and quite expressive in a way that men might not be comfortable with. I’m thinking of hymns such as “Here in this place” and “Sing Out, Earth and Sky”. I wonder of we were using a chanted antiphons instead, or more traditional hymns, would more men sing?

Speaking for myself, yes, I would be far more likely to participate with more traditional hymns.

You might wish to read Bishop Slattery’s thoughts on the subject (he wrote this a couple of years ago).But today I would like to suggest one simple change by which we might begin to recover the sense that the liturgy is something we receive, rather than something we create. I do not propose this as the most important or essential change towards this end, but merely as one change, one step, one movement away from the chaos of created liturgies towards the proper vision of the Council.

What I would like to propose is that we recover the sung introit at Mass.

I know that for two generations now, Catholics have been expected to sing an opening hymn at Mass and in many parishes the faithful are regularly browbeaten to “stand up and greet this morning’s celebrant with hymn #so-and-so” which, depending upon the parish, might be taken from the red hymnbook, or the blue hymnbook, or the nicely disposable paperback missalette. So deeply has this ‘opening hymn mentality’ shaped our consciousness that most Catholics would be astounded to hear me say that hymns have no real place in Mass.

Hymns belong in the Liturgy of the Hours and in the common devotions of the faithful, but the idea that the parish liturgy committee should sit down sometime early in the month and look through a hymn book, trying to find pretty hymns which haven’t been overdone in the past three or four months, which explore the themes of the Sunday Masses and which brings the people together as a singing community is an idea completely alien to the spirit of the Catholic liturgy.

It is alien first of all because the singing of hymns as Sunday worship was a Protestant innovation, better suited to their non-Sacramental worship than to the Mass, and alien secondly because an opening hymn introduces - at the very inception of the sacred action - that element of creative busy-ness, which is, as we have seen, antithetical to the nature of salvation as a gift we receive from God.
My suggestions:

• Definitely restore the sung introit.
• Examine the who, what, where, when.
• If the music is theologically unsound (or could be interpreted as being unsound), skip it.
• If the music is an adaptation of a Protestant hymn, it (IMHO) has no place in the Mass.
• If the music was written by a certain former Lutheran who is now a member of the United Church of Christ, I have to ask why subject a person to that?
• If the music is written by an active homosexual who lives with his boyfriend, the same applies.(BTW, if the above two comments offend anybody…sorry…)
• If the music is an adaptation of the melody from the 4th Movement of Beethoven’s 9th Symphony, I would think you’d want to read the actual words of Friedrich Schiller’s poem that Beethoven was setting to music…and read up a bit on Schiller.
• If the lyrics of the song focus on “us”, is it really appropriate for Mass?
• Do NOT be afraid of sacred silence. Teach your parishioners about it. We don’t have to be entertained constantly. Mass is divine worship, it is not divine karaoke.

Also, I would suggest a careful reading of the following *actual *documents (not what others have said about them):

• Pius X, Motu Proprio Tra Le Sollecitudini - (On Sacred Music) November 22, 1903
• Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, paragraphs 112-121
• John Paul II, Chirograph for the Centenary of the Motu Proprio Tra le Sollecitudini On Sacred Music

Maybe moreso than you reading them, you have your music director read them…and then recommend changes that could bring your music program more in line with their content.

 

[pnewton]

With all due respect, Father, no, men would NOT sing if you replaced the hymns with chant.

I have to agree with this. Men that don’t like to sing, don’t like to sing. It is usually not the music genre that puts them off singing. I think the bigger key is changing the Catholic culture of not singing. Growing up, even people that did not like to sing had the decency to move their lips and make an attempt at words. This is my approach:

1. Lower the register to something comfortable
2. Find an easy pace.
3. Avoid complex music.
   4.Avoid too much variety and it interjects unknown music. People like what they know and sing what they like.
4. And most importantly, monitor the level of participation. Discard what draws small participation and increase what works.

I think as we gain greater involvment from those that like to sing sometimes, more will jump in to go along with the crowd. The reverse is also true.

My favorite thing, my absolute favorite thing is when I am visiting a parish and I note that only the minority sing, is to sing strong enough that those around me feel more comfortable peeping and see if I can’t bring the level up. Of course this only works if I know the music. I am only so-so and sight reading. The other thing is that I teach my son that he needs to sing so he can carry on after me.

 

[markomalley]

I have to agree with this. Men that don’t like to sing, don’t like to sing. It is usually not the music genre that puts them off singing. I think the bigger key is changing the Catholic culture of not singing. Growing up, even people that did not like to sing had the decency to move their lips and make an attempt at words. This is my approach:

1. Lower the register to something comfortable
2. Find an easy pace.
3. Avoid complex music.
   4.Avoid too much variety and it interjects unknown music. People like what they know and sing what they like.
4. And most importantly, monitor the level of participation. Discard what draws small participation and increase what works.

I think as we gain greater involvment from those that like to sing sometimes, more will jump in to go along with the crowd. The reverse is also true.

My favorite thing, my absolute favorite thing is when I am visiting a parish and I note that only the minority sing, is to sing strong enough that those around me feel more comfortable peeping and see if I can’t bring the level up. Of course this only works if I know the music. I am only so-so and sight reading. The other thing is that I teach my son that he needs to sing so he can carry on after me.

Get rid of that nasty, heretical OCP cr*p and actually attempt some actual music. Then I personally would enjoy singing.

 

[pnewton]

Get rid of that nasty, heretical OCP cr*p and actually attempt some actual music. Then I personally would enjoy singing.

You are not in my parish. I listen to my parish, priest and fellow parishoners. The opinions of others from outside the parish are not relevant to me, especially when they are mean-spirited, judgmenental and grounded in ignorance of what my parish is like.

For example, we are currently not using OCP.

 

[Cat]

Cat, you are uncharitably judgmental in this post.

“NONE of the hymns in our hymnals, either traditional or contemporary, are too high.” Yes, they ARE too high for many of us, Cat. You’re a musician. Most of us aren’t. Yes, most of us enjoy singing during Mass, at least most of the time, but it’s not our faults that we’re not great singers. Don’t put us down.

I am a woman who can sing the low notes, but struggle with high-C and above, especially when my acid reflux is acting up (which 20% of the U.S. population suffers from). Singing the high notes can hurt physically and/or can trigger coughing. So there are many songs I’ll switch octaves in – and I’ve noticed men who do the same thing, because the key is simply too high. Guess what – When I occasionally lead the singing during weekday Masses, men and women join in because I start low, and I choose familiar songs. Nothing fancy or complicated, because I don’t know fancy and can’t do complicated.

BTW, you have no idea what range the early Christian martyrs sang or chanted in, and have no musical standards to compare.

Thank you Cat for building up the Kingdom with your ministry. We need you. Don’t judge us or be mad at us, though, okay? Be glad! It’s about worshiping our Lord together, after all, and what you do helps us to love Him. I think more of us than you know appreciate the gifts shared by our singers, organists, pianists, etc.

If you’ll go back and re-read my post which angered you, you will see that I mention “medical reasons” for not singing. My husband has acalasia, so I can sympathize with you and the reflux disease. I work with a mens’ choir, and many of the men are elderly and have respiratory issues; they get very breathy and sometimes out-of-breath during their songs. I know all about singing and pain, and I most certainly do NOT expect my comments to apply to those with medical conditions that make singing painful.

But that’s not the majority of the people in the pews. The majority of people in the pews COULD learn how to sing. A few lessons would do it. A few hours of your life spent learning some basic skills that you were never taught in school (which is where you SHOULD have learned these skills). Is that really asking too much? Is that really being unreasonable on my part?

Or if money is a problem, ask the parish music director to hold a few classes to teach people singing skills. If you can’t pay him, then pay him in food (it’s summer–zucchini is abundant).

**YES, I’m judging people–I’m judging them to be BETTER than what they think they are. I am certain that most people in the pews DO have a nice singing voice–they just have to learn how to use it!
**

As for lowering the hymns, this would make them difficult for the people in the parish who do know how to sing, or who have higher voices. Anatomically and physiologically speaking, those who have alto or bass voices should be able to sing in a higher register; they have longer vocal chords that do not prevent them from achieving those higher notes (although not with the tone quality that a soprano or tenor has in that register.).

But anatomically and physiologically, sopranos and tenors CANNOT achieve the lower notes, or can do so only with a lot of work on their part and possibly pain. They have shorter vocal chords which will not accommodate the lower registers. So lowering the pieces leaves these singers out in the cold.

The hymns are written in singable key signatures. I agree that some of the hymns, old and new, have “jumps” that are kind of silly and hard to do. But the key signatures are not “too high.”

Another problem with transposing the hymns into a lower key is that most pianists and organists cannot do this on the fly. Some organs, and many keyboards (Clavinovas) have a “button” that can be pushed that will transpose. (My organ teacher forbids me to use it, as he is trying to teach me how to transpose on the fly–HE can do it well, but he’s played for over 50 years).

Funny thing–ha ha–a guitar CAN transpose on the fly (the guitarist can use a Capo). So use guitars in the Mass.

Now I must admit that I really have no excuse for not learning how to transpose. But I’m sure other pianists and organists will agree with me that it’s not all that easy. At least give me credit here for TRYING to learn how. But I would be scared to try it on a hymn that I hadn’t practiced in advance. (I can transpose Holy God We Praise Thy Name into four different keys on the fly!)

A few people have mentioned using hymnals or missals that have four-part harmony written in. I would cheer for joy if this were done. Yes, I realize that a large number of the people under 40 years of age do not know how to read music. But many of us over 40 DID learn how to read music in school, and would enjoy being able to harmonize without having to improvise our own rather warbling harmonies.

One more thing about transposing–some key signatures are “dark” and some are “bright.” I would not want to transpose a “Bright” key signature into a “Dark” key signature, especially with hymns. It could change the way the people perceive the hymn and even the Mass.

 

[liturgyluver]

Concerning the suggestion above that protestat hymns should not be used at mass, this would at an instant strip us Catholics of all the best hymns. Those sung during the liturgical year, Marian hymns and the great range of traditional hymnody. Do not fall for the mistaken assumption that modern hymns are protestant and traditional ones Catholic - the opposite is generally true. I would respectfully disagree with the Bishop , the church’s norms allow hymns to be sung at mass at the entrance, offertory and communion. I would suggest that what the US needs is an approved hymnal so Catholics have confidence in what they are singing.

Iwould agree with the observation that Catholic men are generally poor participants in the musical parts of the mass, unlike men in both the Orthodox and Protestant traditions. Slipping a copy of the relevant extracts from Musicum Sacram (1967) in the notice sheet might not be a bad idea!

 

[pnewton]

Funny thing–ha ha–a guitar CAN transpose on the fly (the guitarist can use a Capo). So use guitars in the Mass.

Now I must admit that I really have no excuse for not learning how to transpose. But I’m sure other pianists and organists will agree with me that it’s not all that easy.

I had a song a while back I wanted transposed down for piano. I white-ed out the bottom line of the clef, drew in a new top line, changed the key and viola!, down a step and a half.

 

[Cat]

I had a song a while back I wanted transposed down for piano. I white-ed out the bottom line of the clef, drew in a new top line, changed the key and viola!, down a step and a half.

Cool!

But it’s not really “on the fly.” I suppose, though, that most of the time, we have our hymns well before the Mass, so we can practice and prepare a transposition.

But again–I don’t think it’s necessary. I think the hymns are, for the most part, written in a singable key. Some people might have to drop out on the highest notes or lowest notes, but THAT’s what “corporate singing” is all about–we all work TOGETHER to create a piece of music that is an acceptable prayer of worship to the Lord our God.

ALL of us are needed. And that’s what this thread is all about–why half the people in the parish (the male half) isn’t helping out.

I think that’s what people don’t “get” about hymn singing in the Mass. It is a work that we are all needed for. If most of the people don’t help out, then the work doesn’t get done correctly or in a pleasing way. I’m sure God doesn’t get mad. But wouldn’t it be better to do our best to attempt to please Him?

This means that we in the pews have to give up our own preferences and submit to the leadership of the music director (and the priest) and accept the hymns that have been assigned to us for any given Mass. They may not be our favorites, and we may secretly think that they are anti-Catholic, or theologically-questionable, or too effeminate (or for some feminist-leaning women, “anti-women”). They may have a beat, or not enough beat, or have weird intervals, or be too high for us, or too low for us.

But we need to submit, and then gird up our loins and grit our teeth and take a deep breath (from the diaphragm!) and do our best to make the corporately-sung hymn sound as beautiful as we can make it.

If we can’t sing, then we need to be praying the words of the hymn, which means picking up the hymnal and opening it to the correct page and looking at that page and following along the words as the rest of the people sing.

I think if we have children with us at Mass, we need to try to include them in the hymn-singing. I used to stand my children up on the pew and hold the hymnal open, point to the words, and sing so that they could hear me pronounce the words. Both of my girls loved to sing, and still do love to sing. One is a cantor in her parish…

There is a trust issue here, IMO. We don’t trust the music director (and sometimes, sadly, the priest). We question what the music director chooses, and what the organist/pianist plays, and we think we know better. We deliberately choose to make a “silent protest” against what we have concluded is a “non-liturgical” or “irreverent” or “theologically-incorrect” hymn by NOT singing it during the Mass. (I’ve read plenty of posts here on CAF where people say just what I have written, and they’re proud of it.)

Do we really think that rather childish conduct is making a difference? Do we really think that this is a Scriptural way to deal with conflict? It would be better to make an appointment (preferably a meal appointment–musicians always need food), and talk things over with the music director.

BTW, I tend to agree with those who say that a Communion hymn can be kind of awkward. I’m with those who would like to just return to the pew and pray. I like it when the organist or pianist plays softly during the actual distribution of Holy Communion, and then stops once everyone has been served and the priest is readying the Lord’s Body for repose. But of all the hymns, the Communion hymn is the one that seems to be the most ancient–Jesus and His disciples sang a hymn after the First Eucharist (this was a Passover tradition). So I kind of feel like we should sing it as soon as we are able to open the hymnal and join in. It’s a way to honor Jesus and to remember His Last Supper on this earth.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

I would suggest that what the US needs is an approved hymnal so Catholics have confidence in what they are singing.

This would be a bad idea. The USCCB frequently teams up with OCP (whose tentacles seem to be everywhere) and that would destroy what improvements have been made in American liturgy.