Men and Liturgical Music

[liturgyluver]

This would be a bad idea. The USCCB frequently teams up with OCP (whose tentacles seem to be everywhere) and that would destroy what improvements have been made in American liturgy.

Oh I see. I noticed from the music lists on a long running thread that I sometimes contribute to, that the choice of hymnody in the US seems to be almost exclusively modern with very little balance from the great traditional core of hymmody. For example this evening at the Vigil Mass we sang The Church’s one foundation, Deck thyself thy soul with gladness and Glory be to Jesus.

 

[Sunbreak]

I’m female but I wouldn’t sing the hymns you mentioned either since I dislike many of the modern hymns, especially the “…gather us in” stuff. Many men in my parish sing and I think it’s because it’s an ethnic parish and the ethnic hymns are written in a limited vocal range that most people can sing.

 

[englishredrose]

In reply to the above post it kind of never occurs to me to like or dislike hymns. Whether that due to aspergers or our own culture or whatever I do not know since I know I like singing and have other likes and dislikes. Give me a hymn number and I will sing it. That simple. Yeh, so I am in the choir but it that simple for me with hymns. Some go on for ever, some seem harder to get the hang of but for me it not about like/dislike in that for me it more about the singing rather than not singing. I know at weddings when we are singng the person next to me will mumble, not that again and admittedly at 4pm in the afternoon, morning has broken sounds odd but that only the first line and Im happy enough because it not about our likes at weddings. Am simply happy singing rather than what we are singing. My all time favourite hasn’t words as far as I know, Purcel’s trumpet voluntary. But well my extra pennies worth in the matter.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Oh I see. I noticed from the music lists on a long running thread that I sometimes contribute to, that the choice of hymnody in the US seems to be almost exclusively modern with very little balance from the great traditional core of hymmody. For example this evening at the Vigil Mass we sang The Church’s one foundation, Deck thyself thy soul with gladness and Glory be to Jesus.

Over 60% of American parishes use OCP products, and of the three songs you mentioned, only “The Church’s One Foundation” is printed in those books - with altered lyrics - and would be known to people. Other hymnals, including the Westminster Hymnal (which can be purchased in the US) would contain those hymns.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Can I ask what do you mean by singing?

I responded to your post, but I forgot to answer the question.

It’s actually quite an interesting question.

As far as I’m concerned, all I’m hoping for is that the men try and make some sound which follows the words and music, and enjoy doing so, rather than, say, feeling embarassed or struggling with an impossible tune.

I would also hope that men singing frequently will slowly improve.

The quality and volume of the singing is of very secondary importance to me. It’s a bonus if it’s good, but not nearly as important as some level of comfortable participation.

For that sort of participation, it is good to have tunes which are familiar, comfortable, and forgiving, rather than exposing mistakes.

Modern syncopated songs can be terrible for exposing mistakes, as you can be caught out singing in a rest note - literrally half a bar before the real note. When that happens to me I feel at whoever chose it.

 

[Samson01]

As a priest, I’ve seen that men often don’t sing during Mass. Further, I’ve noticed a lot of the hymns being sung are sort of emotional and quite expressive in a way that men might not be comfortable with. I’m thinking of hymns such as “Here in this place” and “Sing Out, Earth and Sky”. I wonder of we were using a chanted antiphons instead, or more traditional hymns, would more men sing?

this is proving an emotional thread. My favorite is “Holy God we praise they name”. It is one that comes to mind in adoration. I sing when the key is within reach and often get choked up during song for some reason. I think pitch is more of a factor then not.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I sit right behind the choir (they sit in the regular pews with us) so I notice a lot of men singing in our Parish. My husband only sings when he knows the hymn well. But that’s simply because he holds our 3yo who usually falls asleep during Mass therefore he isn’t able to hold the hymnal to read. I am unable to carry our 3yo for long periods because he is the size of a 5yo.

 

[thomasf]

I don’t sing most of the songs at church because they flat out suck. I’ll do the Gloria, I dig that. Everything else, especially the Offertory and the Communion songs, I’m out. They are wishy washy, too slow, and cause me to yawn a lot. The women can sing that stuff.

 

[Philomeena]

I am trying to figure out what an effeminate hymn is…I understand the definition of effeminate but cannot understand the relation between these hymns and being effeminate…

 

[Catholic_Wife]

Anyone who wanted to, could learn to read the notation in weeks. Anyone who wanted to could learn how to sight read it and sing it cold! It is all a matter of motivation.

The majority of people in the pews COULD learn how to sing. A few lessons would do it. A few hours of your life spent learning some basic skills that you were never taught in school (which is where you SHOULD have learned these skills). Is that really asking too much? Is that really being unreasonable on my part?

Getting the average Catholic to be motivated enough to learn to sight read (chant or any other kind of music) and/or take a few singing lessons is asking too much. Most can’t even be bothered to learn the basics of their faith, what makes anyone think they would take it upon themselves to go out of their way to learn to sing???

Here’s what I’ve noticed when I cantor. Most people are opening their mouths trying to make a sound. One problem is their faces are down, looking in the hymnals trying to figure out how to sing the newer hymns that our Director of Liturgy and choir directors insist we sing. You can’t hear people well when they are singing while looking down, and looking down also affects what notes they can reach comfortably. We don’t have this problem when we sing the older, more traditional hymns that everyone knows and likes. EVERYONE sang “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” this past Sunday, and it was AWESOME. I’ve told the DoL and choir directors this, but they don’t listen to me since our Mass is the only one without a choir.

Another problem is that some hymns - and we seem to sing a lot of these - have such large jumps that they’re difficult for the cantors to sing, let alone for those who haven’t properly warmed up their voices or otherwise prepared ahead of time (practiced the music, etc.). I’ve noticed that a lot of people - both men and women - don’t bother to sing these hymns. I hear lots of complaints about the more contemporary hymns because of how difficult they are for the average person to sing, but NO complaints about the hymns being “touch-feely” or “flowery”. I don’t think using chant will help get more men to sing, but using more traditional and well-known hymns would.

(For the record, my husband comments on how much he likes “Sing Out, Earth and Sky” whenever we sing it.)

 

[Cat]

Getting the average Catholic to be motivated enough to learn to sight read (chant or any other kind of music) and/or take a few singing lessons is asking too much. Most can’t even be bothered to learn the basics of their faith, what makes anyone think they would take it upon themselves to go out of their way to learn to sing???

Here’s what I’ve noticed when I cantor. Most people are opening their mouths trying to make a sound. One problem is their faces are down, looking in the hymnals trying to figure out how to sing the newer hymns that our Director of Liturgy and choir directors insist we sing. You can’t hear people well when they are singing while looking down, and looking down also affects what notes they can reach comfortably. We don’t have this problem when we sing the older, more traditional hymns that everyone knows and likes. EVERYONE sang “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” this past Sunday, and it was AWESOME. I’ve told the DoL and choir directors this, but they don’t listen to me since our Mass is the only one without a choir.

Another problem is that some hymns - and we seem to sing a lot of these - have such large jumps that they’re difficult for the cantors to sing, let alone for those who haven’t properly warmed up their voices or otherwise prepared ahead of time (practiced the music, etc.). I’ve noticed that a lot of people - both men and women - don’t bother to sing these hymns. I hear lots of complaints about the more contemporary hymns because of how difficult they are for the average person to sing, but NO complaints about the hymns being “touch-feely” or “flowery”. I don’t think using chant will help get more men to sing, but using more traditional and well-known hymns would.

(For the record, my husband comments on how much he likes “Sing Out, Earth and Sky” whenever we sing it.)

Please allow me to put a qualifier to my comments.

I don’t think that ALL Catholic men (or women) should take some singing lessons. I only think those who COMPLAIN about not being able to sing the hymns should take singing lessons.

The time spent stewing and writing and voicing complaints could just as easily be spent driving to the music teacher’s house and spending 20 minutes learning some singing techniques.

Also, I’m not really expecting anyone to go learn how to read music. When I say “singing lessons”, I’m talking about learning to sing correctly so that it doesn’t hurt or make you out of breath to sing.

Another comment–I agree that everyone sings out on “Holy God We Praise Thy Name.” But we can’t just sing that one hymn all the time! I think it’s a good hymn, but there are plenty of other good hymns that are in the same style, and actually easier to sing. Most of those are the traditional hymns (older), but some are modern. So I can see the point of choosing mostly familiar hymns.

But for the sake of those of us who DO read music and who would like to be a little challenged once in a while, I enjoy hearing new hymns and trying them out. Some are good, and others aren’t. But I think that it would be unreasonable to expect the music director to avoid all hymns except the “Top Twenty Faves of the Congregation.”

I’m not referring to your post, Catholic_Wife, but the more I read through this thread, the more convinced I am that much of the hymn-hating is just people who want what they want when they want it. I’m not so sure that’s a good attitude to have.

Yes, many Catholics long for chant and cite all the documents that say that this is what the Church wants, and they’re right. But being right doesn’t make things happen, and chant just doesn’t happen because people (or the Church) want it. It is a musical genre that many of us do not know much about, and have had no experience with. Yes, we can read the online site that CAF has kindly put a “sticky” on. But reading and studying it is not the same as DOING it with an experienced teacher, and they’re hard to find, and can’t afford to work for pennies.

 

[markomalley]

I am trying to figure out what an effeminate hymn is…I understand the definition of effeminate but cannot understand the relation between these hymns and being effeminate…

The melodies are a little hard to express (I can recognize what I’d call an “effeminate” hymn in a heartbeat, but can’t really describe it too well).

The lyrics generally concentrate more of feelings and experiences more than just out-and-out praise for God.

IMHO.

FWIW

YMMV

 

[Catholic_Wife]

Please allow me to put a qualifier to my comments.

I don’t think that ALL Catholic men (or women) should take some singing lessons. I only think those who COMPLAIN about not being able to sing the hymns should take singing lessons.

The time spent stewing and writing and voicing complaints could just as easily be spent driving to the music teacher’s house and spending 20 minutes learning some singing techniques.

Also, I’m not really expecting anyone to go learn how to read music. When I say “singing lessons”, I’m talking about learning to sing correctly so that it doesn’t hurt or make you out of breath to sing.

FWIW, I agree that just a little time spent with a voice coach can improved one’s singing. I have improved dramatically over the past couple of years with just a little coaching - maybe an hour total - from one of the choir directors. However, it’s easier to complain than to be proactive, and MOST PEOPLE would rather complain than be proactive. This applies to almost every aspect of life - not just “Church stuff”.

But for the sake of those of us who DO read music and who would like to be a little challenged once in a while, I enjoy hearing new hymns and trying them out. Some are good, and others aren’t. But I think that it would be unreasonable to expect the music director to avoid all hymns except the “Top Twenty Faves of the Congregation.”

I would say that for people who want to be challenged by the music they sing, they should join a choir, and let the more challenging pieces be the offeratory and/or communion hymns. If I attended a different Mass, I would love to sit back and listen to the choir present a lovely piece during the offeratory or communion. But for Masses without a choir and with only a cantor, more familiar and easier hymns are better. There’s nothing worse than ending up singing a solo during the offeratory or communion hymn because the congregation doesn’t know the hymn and/or cannot sing it well. I believe this may be another example of how the abilities and needs of the parish need to be taken into consideration.

I’m not referring to your post, Catholic_Wife, but the more I read through this thread, the more convinced I am that much of the hymn-hating is just people who want what they want when they want it

. I’m not so sure that’s a good attitude to have.
This is why I’ve avoided this thread for as long as I have. I don’t hate most hymns (“On Eagles’ Wings” and “Amazing Grace” are my exceptions), nor do I think the people at my parish (especially those at the Mass I attend) hate most hymns. I think they want to participate and would just like to be able to sing hymns that match their abilities (without big jumps between notes, to fast, etc.) and that they feel comfortable singing.

Yes, many Catholics long for chant and cite all the documents that say that this is what the Church wants, and they’re right. But being right doesn’t make things happen, and chant just doesn’t happen because people (or the Church) want it. It is a musical genre that many of us do not know much about, and have had no experience with.

Yes, we can read the online site that CAF has kindly put a “sticky” on. But reading and studying it is not the same as DOING it with an experienced teacher, and they’re hard to find, and can’t afford to work for pennies.
I agree with this. Chant is nice, and I would love for it to be included in Mass, but who is going to teach everyone how to do it correctly? And if people don’t participate because they can’t do it, will they “tune out” what’s going on even more than they already do?

 

[Edmundus1581]

…
I don’t think that ALL Catholic men (or women) should take some singing lessons. I only think those who COMPLAIN about not being able to sing the hymns should take singing lessons.

The time spent stewing and writing and voicing complaints could just as easily be spent driving to the music teacher’s house and spending 20 minutes learning some singing techniques.

…

I’m not referring to your post, Catholic_Wife, but the more I read through this thread, the more convinced I am that much of the hymn-hating is just people who want what they want when they want it. I’m not so sure that’s a good attitude to have.

…

I don’t know which posters you had in mind here. I just want to repeat my previous comments that this has, for me, been a very helpful thread, and I thank everyone involved (including yourself).

The OP highlighted to me the observation that participation in congregational singing is particularly low among men, and hence, lack of participation by men is a particular issue to be addressed.

The various comments have, for the most part, endorsed the OP’s observation, and given suggestions as to the reasons, and what can be done to improve the situation.

Not everyone even agreed that the OP’s observations applied in their own parish. That also is helpful. In such a thread is natural that people contribute their first person observations, and that some of us, who are more musically and/or liturgically literate, also comment on the technical issues. Of course there has been some “venting”, but nothing immoderate, given the subject and range of personal experiences.

Few of the posters deserve the criticism that we are a “just people who want what they want when they want it.”. Our comments have been directed to the broad issue of how to encourage more men to sing, and many have suggested that using traditional and familiar hymns is part of the solution. No-one (AFAIK) has said that we should use only such hymns, or that this is the whole of the solution.

In my previous posts I have been more specific about what I have learned from this thread, and made suggestions on how the situation can be improved, and won’t repeat myself here.

 

[Edmundus1581]

EVERYONE sang “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” this past Sunday, and it was AWESOME. I’ve told the DoL and choir directors this, but they don’t listen to me since our Mass is the only one without a choir.

It is similar in my parish. Whenever we sing a traditional hymn the response ranges from “good”, to “awesome”. Our music directors seem to treat such hymns as a concession to the stupidity of the congregation, which can be handed out occasionally (say 2 times per month), rather than the foundation of congegrational singing - which has to be modern songs (which are often too high for men*).

• I’ll accept Cat’s research that modern songs are, in general, not higher, however the **particular ones ** we sing are often too high for men and have other the other problems discussed in this thread.