Men and womens different responses to chastity

[Petersmate]

That’s the generally understood assumption, yes.

Why do you have trouble with this? Do you mean, it’s just an uncomfortable subject for you to broach? Does she close you off to the conversation? I have to admit, I was never forthcoming about this subject with my parents, even though I knew they would be open to it.

closes me off to the conversation.

I think girls are happy to talk to other females on these and any issue really but males unfortunately will never be lucky enough to talk with females the way females talk with females.

 

[lerapt78]

closes me off to the conversation.

I think girls are happy to talk to other females on these and any issue really but males unfortunately will never be lucky enough to talk with females the way females talk with females.

There’s often the fear of judgment from the male, because girls are expected to feel a certain way about sex. It’s not to say that all men *will *be judgmental, but I think that’s the assumption women make. Believe it or not though, this sometimes occurs among women too. Sometimes you only get a really honest opinion after the woman has had a few drinks and she’s not thinking about how her words will reflect upon her.

Even though your daughter is 18, you’re always going to be her father and naturally you will be concerned about the boys she dates. I would be curious to know how both you and the OP approach the subject with girls. Do you have any sons? How would you approach the matter differently?

 

[lerapt78]

Edit:^^^^^^ I’m **not **suggesting you get your daughter drunk!

 

[LightBound]

For a number of years I have been involved with teaching young people about chastity. I’ve found I can get men to have a serious rethink about their attitudes to sex outside of marriage and pornography. They can accept that these things are destructive, in fact some groups have been really easy to get them to question the norm. I suspect deep down they knew these things were hurting them they just needed someone to speak up.

I have not had the same success with female groups, they often struggle to see that sex outside of marriage is wrong.

I usually talk about, fulfilment, emptiness, being used and sex is for a lifelong commitment and children, I can get men to see the Churches view but not many women.

I’m a male, have other people had the same experience?

It’s been said several times on this thread, but I’m going to reiterate that something of this nature needs to be presented by another woman- be she someone close to the age of the young ladies attending or a slightly older woman. There is nothing wrong with you popping in at an appropriate time and giving a “guy’s point of view”, but most young women (and older ones, too) prefer discussing and/or learning more personal things with other women.

Even the Bible mentions that the older women should teach the younger ones on issues that are pretty closely related to what you are teaching- Titus 2:4

 

[JimG]

Just throwing this out: is it possible that—whether or not they are looking for love or just looking for sex—women and girls view sexual activity as more wrapped up with their social life than do men and boys?

In other words, listening to a chastity talk, do the men who are convinced by it say something to themselves like, “okay, it’s only sex; it’ll be difficult but I can give that up till marriage,” while the women are thinking “but if I give up sex, what happens to my social life?”

 

[lerapt78]

Just throwing this out: is it possible that—whether or not they are looking for love or just looking for sex—women and girls view sexual activity as more wrapped up with their social life than do men and boys?

In other words, listening to a chastity talk, do the men who are convinced by it say something to themselves like, “okay, it’s only sex; it’ll be difficult but I can give that up till marriage,” while the women are thinking “but if I give up sex, what happens to my social life?”

JimG, I would actually think the opposite, speaking personally. I think guys either pressure or encourage each other more to be sexually active. For example, if you can relay a sexual experience the next day you’ll probably be the object of envy and admiration, kind of like “You’re the man!”, although this attitude may lessen with age, I don’t know. I think guys will get teased more by their friends for being virtuous because it’s not seen as manly. (Someone explained it once as being because it is more difficult for a guy to get sex than it is for a woman, therefore it’s seen as an accomplishment.) This is not to say that women don’t “talk”. They do, but it is in a very different manner I think.

Going to strip clubs also seems to be a male-oriented social activity, and often men are pressured into going. I’ve been to quite a few cities with army/navy bases and there always seems to be a large amount of these clubs. The “Wingman” idea has been explained to me as one guy propping up his friend so he can get the woman at the bar to go home with him, ie: two guys working in unison to get sex for one of them. It seems that sex becomes a social/group effort, up until two men are competing for the same woman.

Women don’t really do this, perhaps because it’s easy enough to get sex whenever they want it. They don’t need to plan pick-up lines, or give each other tips on “game”. Neither do they need to make sexual strategy a focus of their social groups, and therefore their social lives don’t revolve around it.

If I can think of an exception I will mention it for the OP to consider. Nothing came to mind, though.

 

[TheAdvocate]

See, I would think it would be the opposite problem. As a woman who remembers what it was like to be a horny teenager, I remember feeling insulted when I was told all this about how “you don’t really want sex, you just want love.” Um, no - I really do just want sex.

Anyway - there seems to be this HUGE disconnect - we understand that men have sex drives, so chastity education for men tends to be along the lines of - “I know you want sex, but here’s why you should deny yourself.” For women, the assumption is that they don’t really have a sex drive, so chastity education for women tends to be along the lines of “You don’t know what you want. Here, let me tell you what you really want.” When you basically start off with a lie, your entire credibility and the rest of your message is completely shot. If you are talking to women about being used, the first reaction (for me anyway) is “used? How is that possible? I want sex!”

I think we would have more success with women if we said (similar to the guys) “I know you want sex, but here’s why you should deny yourself.” First of all, there’s the practical - the responsibility of bringing new life into the world responsibly (here’s a clue - if you would not have the self-confidence of Ellen Paige’s Juno while pregnant, you’re not ready to be pregnant), and since NO birth control is 100%, there is always the possibility. Then the risk of STD’s tends to fall mainly on the woman.

If I were teaching the class instead of you, I would drop any lingering “right to wear white” type stuff or any discussion about a woman’s “purity” - it always comes off demeaning. And I would not focus too much on the bright line of pre-marriage vs. post-marrige - it always comes across as “when we wave a magic wand, what was once ‘dirty’ is now ‘good’.” Obviously, we have to mention the bright line of pre-marriage vs. post-marriage at some point, but I would do it after discussing the following:

1. relationships in which sex means something in context
2. risks of being asymmetrical in relationships that involve sex (*) which segues into
3. when sex is good in a symmetrical, loving relationship. So good, in fact, that sex in any other type of relationship just seems kinda pointless in comparison
4. ideally, when your relationship is at the point where you are ready for sex, you will be married. If not, get thee to the altar. Conversely, ideally, when you are approaching the altar, your relationship will be at the point (symmetrical and loving) where you are ready for sex. If not, don’t get married. (See what I did there? The focus is not on the magic-wand moment, but on the natural progression of the relationship with the bright-line standard thrown in. More intuitive (and honest) that way.)
5. Watch out for just wanting sex so SO bad that you rush to the altar but its okay because you were chaste up until the wedding. This is an example of a relationship being all about sex, even though the couple was abstinent. This is also an example that I have NEVER heard except from secular sources who (rightly) point out this phenomenon. No Catholic / other Christian sources I have seen have ever pointed this out; probably because the simplistic “magic wand” approach can’t deal with this reality (which is why I recommend just throwing the “magic wand” approach out, since kids are smart and they see it for the baloney it is).
6. returning to the subject of relationships in which sex means something in context, let’s talk about:
   a) what a healthy relationship looks like and how to recognize one
   b) what long-term love looks like - shared joy and sacrifice
   c) what an UNhealthy relationship looks like and how to recognize one

Anyway, the above is the culmination of ~15 years of off and on thought about this subject, as well as quite a bit of experience, which includes practicing monogamy for the last 4 years. So, in sum, I believe I know what I’m talking about.

Thank you for a very HONEST, cogent, and truthful quote. My favorite part is where you basically say, “lots of teen girls like sex for sex’s sake.” I also agree that some young couples rush to the altar because they want to have sex so badly.

But I do have a question: why do you feel bringing up the “white dress” or purity demeaning to many young teens?

Yes, you do know your stuff.

 

[lerapt78]

Thank you for a very HONEST, cogent, and truthful quote. My favorite part is where you basically say, “lots of teen girls like sex for sex’s sake.” I also agree that some young couples rush to the altar because they want to have sex so badly.

But I do have a question: why do you feel bringing up the “white dress” or purity demeaning to many young teens?

Yes, she voiced what a lot of women feel. This may be one one of the reasons the OP is having trouble. If I can presume to speak for Athena, I would say the “white dress” concept may be offensive to some because it again reinforces the double standard of purity being more valued in women, that it is the outward symbol of her morality. In other words, we don’t expect men to be sexually pure.

 

[JimG]

JimG, I would actually think the opposite, speaking personally. I think guys either pressure or encourage each other more to be sexually active. For example, if you can relay a sexual experience the next day you’ll probably be the object of envy and admiration, kind of like “You’re the man!”, although this attitude may lessen with age, I don’t know. I think guys will get teased more by their friends for being virtuous because it’s not seen as manly. (Someone explained it once as being because it is more difficult for a guy to get sex than it is for a woman, therefore it’s seen as an accomplishment.) This is not to say that women don’t “talk”. They do, but it is in a very different manner I think.

Going to strip clubs also seems to be a male-oriented social activity, and often men are pressured into going. I’ve been to quite a few cities with army/navy bases and there always seems to be a large amount of these clubs. The “Wingman” idea has been explained to me as one guy propping up his friend so he can get the woman at the bar to go home with him, ie: two guys working in unison to get sex for one of them. It seems that sex becomes a social/group effort, up until two men are competing for the same woman.

Women don’t really do this, perhaps because it’s easy enough to get sex whenever they want it. They don’t need to plan pick-up lines, or give each other tips on “game”. Neither do they need to make sexual strategy a focus of their social groups, and therefore their social lives don’t revolve around it.

If I can think of an exception I will mention it for the OP to consider. Nothing came to mind, though.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I understand the social presssure that men may feel in this regard.

But I was really thinking more along the lines of: do either men or women feel that without sex they will have no social life at all? Are they thinking that gosh, if I can’t have sex I’ll just have to stay home and watch TV alone?

I guess my question is this. Has sexual activity become such an innate part of social life that people believe that by giving up sex, they must give up social activity and become recluses?

 

[JaneGrey]

See, I would think it would be the opposite problem. As a woman who remembers what it was like to be a horny teenager, I remember feeling insulted when I was told all this about how “you don’t really want sex, you just want love.” Um, no - I really do just want sex.

Anyway - there seems to be this HUGE disconnect - we understand that men have sex drives, so chastity education for men tends to be along the lines of - “I know you want sex, but here’s why you should deny yourself.” For women, the assumption is that they don’t really have a sex drive, so chastity education for women tends to be along the lines of “You don’t know what you want. Here, let me tell you what you really want.” When you basically start off with a lie, your entire credibility and the rest of your message is completely shot. If you are talking to women about being used, the first reaction (for me anyway) is “used? How is that possible? I want sex!”

I think we would have more success with women if we said (similar to the guys) “I know you want sex, but here’s why you should deny yourself.” First of all, there’s the practical - the responsibility of bringing new life into the world responsibly (here’s a clue - if you would not have the self-confidence of Ellen Paige’s Juno while pregnant, you’re not ready to be pregnant), and since NO birth control is 100%, there is always the possibility. Then the risk of STD’s tends to fall mainly on the woman.

If I were teaching the class instead of you, I would drop any lingering “right to wear white” type stuff or any discussion about a woman’s “purity” - it always comes off demeaning. And I would not focus too much on the bright line of pre-marriage vs. post-marrige - it always comes across as “when we wave a magic wand, what was once ‘dirty’ is now ‘good’.” Obviously, we have to mention the bright line of pre-marriage vs. post-marriage at some point, but I would do it after discussing the following:

1. relationships in which sex means something in context
2. risks of being asymmetrical in relationships that involve sex (*) which segues into
3. when sex is good in a symmetrical, loving relationship. So good, in fact, that sex in any other type of relationship just seems kinda pointless in comparison
4. ideally, when your relationship is at the point where you are ready for sex, you will be married. If not, get thee to the altar. Conversely, ideally, when you are approaching the altar, your relationship will be at the point (symmetrical and loving) where you are ready for sex. If not, don’t get married. (See what I did there? The focus is not on the magic-wand moment, but on the natural progression of the relationship with the bright-line standard thrown in. More intuitive (and honest) that way.)
5. Watch out for just wanting sex so SO bad that you rush to the altar but its okay because you were chaste up until the wedding. This is an example of a relationship being all about sex, even though the couple was abstinent. This is also an example that I have NEVER heard except from secular sources who (rightly) point out this phenomenon. No Catholic / other Christian sources I have seen have ever pointed this out; probably because the simplistic “magic wand” approach can’t deal with this reality (which is why I recommend just throwing the “magic wand” approach out, since kids are smart and they see it for the baloney it is).
6. returning to the subject of relationships in which sex means something in context, let’s talk about:
   a) what a healthy relationship looks like and how to recognize one
   b) what long-term love looks like - shared joy and sacrifice
   c) what an UNhealthy relationship looks like and how to recognize one

Obviously #6 is rather ambiguous but it’s very important to the overall picture.

Anyway, the above is the culmination of ~15 years of off and on thought about this subject, as well as quite a bit of experience, which includes practicing monogamy for the last 4 years. So, in sum, I believe I know what I’m talking about.

(*) NOT the “you’ll get used by guys for sex” but rather something along the lines of the issues that can arise when one person is thinking “friends with benefits” and the other person falls in love. How it’s not always obvious what the other person is thinking / feeling, and how in most cases it takes time to really let the relationship develop.

This, absolutely 100 % this. OP, I feel that more individuals will be reached taking the above into mind.

 

[LightBound]

Looks like the OP is long gone from this thread. I wonder if he’s read all these posts and come up with a conclusion from all the suggestions on how to make a better and more effective presentation when it comes to the way women respond to his chastity info sessions.

 

[rebeccanew]

I just had a nasty experience with some young man that was helping us plant our garden. He stated that he had found God and recited the Jesus, save souls prayer, I said amen. I knew something wasn’t right because his shirt was open all the way and he had on a gold chain. Not ten minutes later he said he had some seeds he would like to give me-at first I thought he was talking about pot seeds and I laughed. Then he said it with a sexual overtone , I pretended I didn’t understand. That is why women do not like to speak to men about chastity. It is a spiritual topic and should be treated as such, not as a chapter in a course.

 

[Petersmate]

There’s often the fear of judgment from the male, because girls are expected to feel a certain way about sex. It’s not to say that all men *will *be judgmental, but I think that’s the assumption women make. Believe it or not though, this sometimes occurs among women too. Sometimes you only get a really honest opinion after the woman has had a few drinks and she’s not thinking about how her words will reflect upon her.

Even though your daughter is 18, you’re always going to be her father and naturally you will be concerned about the boys she dates. I would be curious to know how both you and the OP approach the subject with girls. Do you have any sons? How would you approach the matter differently?

Yes I have sons, they seem a lot more receptive. I’m not so sure your right when you say girls are expected to feel a certain way…by whom?

I like the approach of people like Jason and Crystalina Evert they are seen often on EWTN and here at Catholic Answers talking to both girls and boys about purity and chastity.

 

[Petersmate]

Leah Darrow has some good advice 2 minutes into this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=cL6y4SBml0o&feature=relmfu

 

[Carina20]

I think the reason women may not see anything wrong is because whenever they commit adultery, they conveniently blame it on the man.
“He used me…he seduced me…not my fault blah blah.”

This is my experience, I know the arrows of mysoginist accusations will come hurling my way, but whatever…can’t blame me for what I see.

I’ve heard that people are learning this from their churches. Its always a man ‘robbing a woman of her purity’ and the girls feel like this means they get off scot-free. Both are responsible for their actions even if they don’t want to be.

 

[AthenaC]

Do you care to mention that that behavior of yours is a serious sin and a stain on your soul

Not really, because it wasn’t the reason I mentioned it. I mentioned it as a +1 to the idea that plenty of women also want casual sex and why any chastity discussion should assume they do.

I probably could have made the point more delicately, though.

But I do have a question: why do you feel bringing up the “white dress” or purity demeaning to many young teens?

If I can presume to speak for Athena, I would say the “white dress” concept may be offensive to some because it again reinforces the double standard of purity being more valued in women, that it is the outward symbol of her morality. In other words, we don’t expect men to be sexually pure.

That is basically it - it does reinforce the double standard, which sounds demeaning. Also, when it comes to the concept of “purity” as expressed in any chastity education I have ssen, the bottom line is that it simply doesn’t work that way. It’s not true that your marriage will be forever ruined / tainted if you are not a virgin on your wedding night; as I said earlier, your previous experience seems pointless in comparison, but it doesn’t taint anything (I know some people disagree with this, but I think the vast majority of people have had experiences similar to mine.) Teenagers are looking around and seeing that their parents’ friends marriages are great (after living together before marriage), or they see their older siblings be sexually active in college and go on to have great marriages … they recognize baloney when they see it.

The only general caveat here is that if there is asymmetry in experience (i.e. one partner is a virgin while the other is not), that can cause problems, primarly because the virgin assumes quite a bit about the way the experienced partner sees their previous experience. But probably nothing a little couple’s therapy and unconditional commitment wouldn’t fix.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I understand the social presssure that men may feel in this regard.

But I was really thinking more along the lines of: do either men or women feel that without sex they will have no social life at all? Are they thinking that gosh, if I can’t have sex I’ll just have to stay home and watch TV alone?

I guess my question is this. Has sexual activity become such an innate part of social life that people believe that by giving up sex, they must give up social activity and become recluses?

To be honest, yes and no. Many people want to know that sex is one of the options on the table, even if that option is never exercised for whatever reason. At least in America. On the occasions where I have had opportunities to befriend guys from other, more liberal countries with a more evolved attitude toward women, there’s no sexual tension, i.e. sex is not an option on the table, even if I had wanted it to be.

So yes because many guys (and girls) will direct their attention elsewhere if they know someone is committed to abstinence. (Why girls? Well, if girls want some, too, their chances are increased if their friends are all up for it as well. More likely to attract guys who want some and more likely to score. Abstinent people won’t help the odds.)

But no because there are plenty of social possibilities where sex is off the table. The problem is, you have to find them. I had a Catholic prayer group in high school where we said the Rosary once a week (and we were most DEFINITELY not having sex). In college, I lived in family housing and had many married people for friends. Definitely no sex involved there, either, by mutual agreement.

 

[JimG]

"JimG:

… I was really thinking more along the lines of: do either men or women feel that without sex they will have no social life at all? Are they thinking that gosh, if I can’t have sex I’ll just have to stay home and watch TV alone? I guess my question is this. Has sexual activity become such an innate part of social life that people believe that by giving up sex, they must give up social activity and become recluses?

To be honest, yes and no. Many people want to know that sex is one of the options on the table, even if that option is never exercised for whatever reason. At least in America. On the occasions where I have had opportunities to befriend guys from other, more liberal countries with a more evolved attitude toward women, there’s no sexual tension, i.e. sex is not an option on the table, even if I had wanted it to be.

So yes because many guys (and girls) will direct their attention elsewhere if they know someone is committed to abstinence. (Why girls? Well, if girls want some, too, their chances are increased if their friends are all up for it as well. More likely to attract guys who want some and more likely to score. Abstinent people won’t help the odds.)

But no because there are plenty of social possibilities where sex is off the table. The problem is, you have to find them. I had a Catholic prayer group in high school where we said the Rosary once a week (and we were most DEFINITELY not having sex). In college, I lived in family housing and had many married people for friends. Definitely no sex involved there, either, by mutual agreement.

Thanks for the response. I am thinking that those who are most resistant to the chastity message, whether men or women, will be those who are already sexually active, and thus accustomed to having sex available.

Going back to a position of abstinence might seem daunting to them, and involve seeking out a whole new group of friends.

But at least it would be a step in the right direction.