Men objectifying women

[Walking_Home]

The machinations-- the excuses-- the the ways we seek justification for accusing others - is the devil’s way to keep us enclosed in our temptations/sins.

We need to break free from “justifying” our temptations/sins – go forward and look up to God-- be infused/transformed by Grace – to see God in everyone and not fall into temptation/sin.

The only solution – the only medicine against temptation/sin – is God.

Pope Francis then referred to a passage from the Gospel of Luke (22:31-32), recounting the conversation between Jesus and Peter, in which “the Lord tells Peter that the devil wants to sift him like wheat”, but at the same time Jesus tells him that he has prayed for him and gives him a new mission: “When you have turned back, strengthen your brethren”. Therefore, the Holy Father said that Jesus not only expects to help us escape from temptation, but he trusts us. This is a great strength”, because “he always opens up new horizons”, while through temptation the devil “closes and develops environments which cause you to fight” and “seek justification for accusing others”.
**
“Let us not be ensnared by temptation” the Holy Father said. You can only escape from temptation through “listening to the Word of Jesus”. He concluded his homily with the words: “Let us ask the Lord to always say to us, in times of temptation, as he did with the disciples, with patience: Stop. Do not worry. Lift up your eyes, look to the horizon. Do not close yourself in, move forward. His Word will save us from falling into sin in moments of temptation”. **

osservatoreromano.va/en/news/resist-temptation#.UxJ0LoXCsz9

 

[edwest2]

This not about justifying accusing others. Others ARE, in fact, putting immorality in our faces and calling it good. They model immorality in movies and on TV and even on stage in the way of certain singers and what they say and how they dress.

No man is perfect but there have been times when most of us strove to be as perfect as we could be - with God’s help of course. We must identify the problems, in detail. In the past, a father would tell his daughter, “There is no way I’m letting you go out dressed like that” and she would respect him, or if her mother said the same thing. Respect and becoming truly God-fearing human beings began at home, at school and at Church. It was all linked together. And OUR MEDIA respected that. This isn’t about “somebody else made me do it,” it’s about the breakdown of a moral social order that once existed. And we need to identify why that system was slowly dismantled to be replaced by FILTH.

Growing up, I was told to avoid filthy talk and filthy magazines and the wild kids who were behaving in immoral ways. WE WERE TOLD - don’t do that.

So, right now, for Catholics at least, realize the world is not your friend, the media is not your friend and too many people, like Catholics, are living almost identical lives to their non-Catholic counterparts. All human beings deserve our respect, but too many otherwise good people are imitating the world.

We need to say: there are lines we will not cross. There are limits. There are rules. And by accepting that, we can get off the wide road that leads to destruction. And we need to say it as often as possible, because the way too many people are living today is just plain bad for themselves, their kids and their neighbors.

“Anything goes” needs to end. Now. For Catholics, at least.

Peace,
Ed

 

[severus68]

---

Exactly. Instead of going through all kinds of machinations – to scapegoat another – and “justify” temptations/sins – we need to work with God grace and allow it to transform us – to see the face of God in everyone – no matter what they wear.

Yes.

 

[Walking_Home]

The snare of the devil – keeping people enslaved to temptation/sin–blaming the other. The infection grows – passed from one person to the next – from one generation to the next. All looking for ways – to scapegoat the other.

Pope Francis
Santa Marta

Initially, temptation “begins in a soothing way”, but “then it grows. Jesus himself spoke about this when he told the parable of the seeds and the weeds (Mt 13: 24-30). The seeds grew, but the weeds planted by the enemy also grew. This is how temptation grows, it grows and grows. If one does not make it stop, then it occupies everything”, and that is when infection occurs. Temptation grows, the Pope said, “and it hates solitude”; it will try to spread to another to have company. This is how it accumulates people, spreading to others”. The third feature is justification; “we justify in order to feel fine with ourselves”.

The Pope noted how temptation always justifies itself, “since the first original sin” when Adam blames Eve for convincing him to eat the forbidden fruit. Through this growth, infection and justification it “locks us in a place where you cannot easily escape”. To explain this, the Pope referred to the Gospel of Mark (8:14,21): “This is what happened to the apostles who were in the boat: they had forgotten to bring bread”, and began to blame each other and discuss who had made the mistake of forgetting it. “Jesus looked at them, and I think”, the Pope said, “that he smiled as he watched them. And he said to them: do you remember the yeast of the Pharisees and Herod? Take heed, beware!”. Yet they “did not understand anything, because they were so caught up in blame that they did not have room for anything else, they did not have light to understand the Word of God”.

 

[edwest2]

The snare of the devil – keeping people enslaved to temptation/sin–blaming the other. The infection grows – passed from one person to the next – from one generation to the next. All looking for ways – to scapegoat the other.

The bolded part is precisely what I saw and experienced. It was not enough for some to be tempted, they had to infect others. Today, sin, and right and wrong, have been replaced by the meaningless word ‘controversy.’ Something is either right or it is wrong. It’s simple. Like the word sin. I used to see that word used but today, only if the Pope says it.

Now,

biblehub.com/isaiah/5-20.htm

Ed

 

[Walking_Home]

The bolded part is precisely what I saw and experienced. It was not enough for some to be tempted, they had to infect others. Today, sin, and right and wrong, have been replaced by the meaningless word ‘controversy.’ Something is either right or it is wrong. It’s simple. Like the word sin. I used to see that word used but today, only if the Pope says it.

Now,

biblehub.com/isaiah/5-20.htm

Ed

---

The infection grows – because a person hears/sees another justifying" their temptations/sins – by blaming somebody else. This is how the devil keeps people snared-- from one person to the next – on generation to the next. One generation “teaches” the younger to “justify” their temptations/sins.

 

[edwest2]

---

The infection grows – because a person hears/sees another justifying" their temptations/sins – by blaming somebody else. This is how the devil keeps people snared-- from one person to the next – on generation to the next. One generation “teaches” the younger to “justify” their temptations/sins.

It was not always that way. I lived through a time period where the opposite was true. Though some (not you) try to deny it.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Brendan_64]

This not about justifying accusing others. Others ARE, in fact, putting immorality in our faces and calling it good. They model immorality in movies and on TV and even on stage in the way of certain singers and what they say and how they dress.

No man is perfect but there have been times when most of us strove to be as perfect as we could be - with God’s help of course. We must identify the problems, in detail. In the past, a father would tell his daughter, “There is no way I’m letting you go out dressed like that” and she would respect him, or if her mother said the same thing. Respect and becoming truly God-fearing human beings began at home, at school and at Church. It was all linked together. And OUR MEDIA respected that. This isn’t about “somebody else made me do it,” it’s about the breakdown of a moral social order that once existed. And we need to identify why that system was slowly dismantled to be replaced by FILTH.

Growing up, I was told to avoid filthy talk and filthy magazines and the wild kids who were behaving in immoral ways. WE WERE TOLD - don’t do that.

So, right now, for Catholics at least, realize the world is not your friend, the media is not your friend and too many people, like Catholics, are living almost identical lives to their non-Catholic counterparts. All human beings deserve our respect, but too many otherwise good people are imitating the world.

We need to say: there are lines we will not cross. There are limits. There are rules. And by accepting that, we can get off the wide road that leads to destruction. And we need to say it as often as possible, because the way too many people are living today is just plain bad for themselves, their kids and their neighbors.

“Anything goes” needs to end. Now. For Catholics, at least.

Peace,
Ed

That is very good post and full of truth.

We have now got to the point where immorality, particularly sexual immorality, is regarded not as something wrong but as something normal, natural and even healthy. Views that are contrary to this are now generally considered to be subversive, oppressive, and harmful. All the taboos of sexual immorality are being torn down by the forces that control our society (the media, law-makers, politicians) and the message is that this is being done as an act of emancipation. Very few taboos are left. Pedophila, incest and bestiality are all that are left of these taboos; they will go in time (some sooner than others) all in the cause of sexual emancipation and self-expression.

The lowering of the age of consent, creating a distinction between sex with children of pre and post-pubescence, differentiating between consensual and non-consensual sex with children, regarding pedophilia as a sexual orientation, recognising pedophiles as an oppressed minority… That is unfortunately the direction we seem to be heading.

 

[Sarcelle]

I have been friends with and even dated one very attractive woman. You don’t show off. You don’t give in to the urge to flatter yourself or provide opportunities where you exploit yourself. The women I knew, and one I still know, were/are beauty pageant beautiful. One even decided to skip wearing makeup and the other wore very little makeup.

Peace,
Ed

Beauty can be a double edged sword. It can be a boon sometimes, studies show attractive people earn more over their lifetime than unattractive people. On the other hand, it can alo attract unwanted attention.

Look at nature. The colorful plumage of certain male birds helps them attract mates but it can also attract the attention of predators.

 

[Sarcelle]

It was not always that way. I lived through a time period where the opposite was true. Though some (not you) try to deny it.

Peace,
Ed

Nowadays, waiting for marriage to have sex is considered suspect and virgin is considered an insult.

 

[edwest2]

That is very good post and full of truth.

We have now got to the point where immorality, particularly sexual immorality, is regarded not as something wrong but as something normal, natural and even healthy. Views that are contrary to this are now generally considered to be subversive, oppressive, and harmful. All the taboos of sexual immorality are being torn down by the forces that control our society (the media, law-makers, politicians) and the message is that this is being done as an act of emancipation. Very few taboos are left. Pedophila, incest and bestiality are all that are left of these taboos; they will go in time (some sooner than others) all in the cause of sexual emancipation and self-expression.

The lowering of the age of consent, creating a distinction between sex with children of pre and post-pubescence, differentiating between consensual and non-consensual sex with children, regarding pedophilia as a sexual orientation, recognising pedophiles as an oppressed minority… That is unfortunately the direction we seem to be heading.

Thank you. Being a sinner myself, it is not up to me to judge individuals. However, it is the job of the Church to oppose through right reason and established Church teaching wrong behaviors and promote what I have see for myself, at one time period, work. It’s good for us. All the sexual sins go way back but if all you need is to go to judges, go to lawyers and go to media executives who agree with you, we now have - as Pope Benedict stated - a Dictatorship of Relativism. “What might be right for you may be wrong for me.” is the thinking of some.

Jesus said he came to call sinners to repentance, but if we tell those predisposed or encouraged to sin the opposite, then what? In the past, following those “repressive” rules helped to rein in our inborn tendency to sin. Even the porn industry recognizes that there were stronger taboos back then. Under the cover of a depraved form of art, it was slowly let in. Then, a certain cable channel adopted the slogan: “No limits.” Or as the great philosopher, Mick Jagger, said on MTV: “Too much is never enough.”

So - what is the average character template on TV and the movies today? - it’s the Dysfunctionals. In the opening song to Family Guy, it mentions “those values on which we used to rely.”

So, they know 100% what they’re doing.

If we regain self-discipline, temperance, restraint and a proper sense of shame and guilt, we can make a good Confession. God never tires of forgiving us. Pope Francis said that. When we fall, get up and confess. Ask God for the strength to resist temptation.

God bless,
Ed

 

[DarkLight]

I think there are many levels here.

One, yes, women need to be modest. I think it is harder than many men realize. A man can go buy a shirt in his size and expect it to be ok. For a woman it is harder. Even clothing designed to be modest often isn’t if you have a particular figure, if you are shorter or have larger breasts or buttocks or something. I have a hard time with necklines, because I have a thin frame and am fairly short. What is designed to be a modest neckline on your average woman hangs much lower on me. Not to mention women are expected to have fitted clothing - if you wear things that are too loose in a professional environment people will think you don’t take proper care of your appearance.

Two, I think we need to push back as a society on objectifying women. I think, when the predominant social message is to see women as sex objects, it effects everyone. It is harder for women to be modest, without feeling undesirable or unattractive. It is harder for men because they are trained to view women as prizes, and a pretty woman as something society owes them. When men are taught that objectifying women is ok even a modest woman will be a target.

Three, we need to examine exactly what our standards are and how they fit in. I dislike the idea of being ladylike for this reason, because I think many of the standards have less to do with modesty and respect and more with the ideals of a certain social class. I don’t want people to make assumptions on my sexual availability because I don’t live in a great neighborhood and sometimes I walk home alone, or because I’m in a job where I’m with men a lot. I don’t like that most of us as young woman learned never to smile or be friendly with a young man in public, lest it be taken as an invitation. I think we need to be careful that extraneous behavior isn’t seen as an invitation - because I think that also is a form of objectification.

 

[Thorns]

That is a very good point. How many women will ask a man to move stuff or carry stuff to her car, not because she can’t do it herself, but because she would rather not do it. I’ve been asked to carry and move stuff that really weighs very little. And, as I work in a predominantly female environment, you dare not say no or you’re mud.

Ive dared to say no to certain things at times and Im not mud to them at all. In fact, for some reason saying no has earned me a great deal of respect.

Honestly it boggles my mind though and its backwards and ironic how these things work out. Its in my nature to be pleasant and serving and I really appreciate it when people are the same in return, but for some reason doing the opposite with some people earns their respect.

 

[Walking_Home]

Do we walk out of Church – in the same state we walked in. Walk in --“justifying” our wrong doings – and walk out doing the same. Deflecting away from ourselves – by pointing to someone else.

Pope Francis
On How We Live The Eucharist

However, does the Eucharist I celebrate lead me to truly regard them all as brothers and sisters? Does it make my capacity grow to rejoice with the joyful and to weep with those who weep? Does it push me to go to the poor, the sick, the marginalized? Does it help me to recognize Jesus’ face in them? We all go to Mass because we love Jesus and we want to share in the Eucharist his Passion and Resurrection. But do we love, as Jesus wants, those brothers and sisters that are most in need? For example, in Rome in these days we have see so many social hardships or because of the rain, which has done so much damage to entire neighborhoods, or for the lack of work, consequences of the economic crisis in the whole world. I ask myself, and each one us should ask themselves: I, who go to Mass, how do I live this? Do I make sure to help, to come close to, to pray for those who have this problem? Or am I a little indifferent? Or maybe I’m concerned with gossip: Have you seen how that woman is dressed, or how that man is dressed? Sometimes this is done, after Mass, and it shouldn’t be done!/B] We should worry about our brothers and our sister that are in need because of a sickness, a problem. Today, it would do us well to think of these our brothers and sisters that have these problems here in Rome: problems caused by the tragedy provoked by the rain, social problems and work. Let us ask Jesus, who we received in the Eucharist, to help us to help them.

zenit.org/en/articles/on-how-we-live-the-eucharist

 

[Kamaduck]

I agree with a lot of what Darklight said, especially that being “ladylike” isn’t such a good measure of modesty, because it runs the risk of being classist. I think there is a lot in scripture that suggests we ought not judge others by appearances, whether that judgement is based on how much skin is showing or how expensive the clothes are.

Having “poise” or knowing how to “walk and sit like a lady” is nice and all, but I think it’s a very different thing from being modest. Some people just aren’t overly concerned with appearances, and I don’t see that as sinful or wrong. It shouldn’t cause us to respect them any less.

How any of that helps someone to avoid being objectified is beyond me. Maybe it doesn’t. As I’ve said, I think there’s only so much a person can do, and we ought to all work on respecting everyone regardless of what they look like.

 

[severus68]

I agree with a lot of what Darklight said, especially that being “ladylike” isn’t such a good measure of modesty, because it runs the risk of being classist. I think there is a lot in scripture that suggests we ought not judge others by appearances, whether that judgement is based on how much skin is showing or how expensive the clothes are.

Having “poise” or knowing how to “walk and sit like a lady” is nice and all, but I think it’s a very different thing from being modest. Some people just aren’t overly concerned with appearances, and I don’t see that as sinful or wrong. It shouldn’t cause us to respect them any less.

How any of that helps someone to avoid being objectified is beyond me. Maybe it doesn’t. As I’ve said, I think there’s only so much a person can do, and we ought to all work on respecting everyone regardless of what they look like.

Yes.

 

[severus68]

Do we walk out of Church – in the same state we walked in. Walk in --“justifying” our wrong doings – and walk out doing the same. Deflecting away from ourselves – by pointing to someone else.

God bless Pope Francis. He says it so well and clearly.

If we collected a dollar for each post on each modesty thread that has ever been on CAF, I am sure we can feed a lot of the hungry.

 

[bbentrup]

Re: objectification.

I know this thread is treating that word in regards to lust, but I think before that analysis can be done, one has to step back and look at objectification more generally. For example, assuming I am using the word correctly, I objectify just about every person I’ve ever come into contact with - male or female, young or ancient, beautiful or ugly, and many other aspects besides. The prevailing question in my mind is “are you useful to me?” and if the answer is negative, I compartmentalize you into irrelevance and go on with my life. Unless I am having an extremely collected and serene day, I ignore your personhood, your shared sonship in Christ. Sexual objectification is just one way to objectify, lack of sexual objectification is even another (oh, you don’t fit my sexual attraction, next body).

Not to belittle sexual objectification, but I think we have to respect the deeper question of general objectification first, otherwise we just objectify the person in a different but still damning way. Once I see your true personhood (God’s lens), it won’t matter for my soul’s sake if you’re sexually attractive - immodest or not - I’ll appreciate a gift of beauty if it’s there and offer it up, or if not, I’ll focus on your other gifts.

Modern psychology, from what I understand at least, teaches us that the human brain has to compartmentalize people to simply keep ourselves from going crazy, and I don’t doubt there’s some truth to that, but I think we need to be wary of this tendency, and to make strides to minimize it, e.g., pray for the stranger next to us, even if we don’t interact with him or her.

Bottom line: stop the general depersonalization and the sexual objectification will tend to fall in line. Stay close to the sacraments to have the strength to live this daily.

 

[Kamaduck]

Re: objectification.

I know this thread is treating that word in regards to lust, but I think before that analysis can be done, one has to step back and look at objectification more generally. For example, assuming I am using the word correctly, I objectify just about every person I’ve ever come into contact with - male or female, young or ancient, beautiful or ugly, and many other aspects besides. The prevailing question in my mind is “are you useful to me?” and if the answer is negative, I compartmentalize you into irrelevance and go on with my life. Unless I am having an extremely collected and serene day, I ignore your personhood, your shared sonship in Christ. Sexual objectification is just one way to objectify, lack of sexual objectification is even another (oh, you don’t fit my sexual attraction, next body).

Not to belittle sexual objectification, but I think we have to respect the deeper question of general objectification first, otherwise we just objectify the person in a different but still damning way. Once I see your true personhood (God’s lens), it won’t matter for my soul’s sake if you’re sexually attractive - immodest or not - I’ll appreciate a gift of beauty if it’s there and offer it up, or if not, I’ll focus on your other gifts.

Modern psychology, from what I understand at least, teaches us that the human brain has to compartmentalize people to simply keep ourselves from going crazy, and I don’t doubt there’s some truth to that, but I think we need to be wary of this tendency, and to make strides to minimize it, e.g., pray for the stranger next to us, even if we don’t interact with him or her.

Bottom line: stop the general depersonalization and the sexual objectification will tend to fall in line. Stay close to the sacraments to have the strength to live this daily.

Whith regards to the last two paragraphs: I once read an informal article that asserted that humans could only think of about 150 people as human at a given time. Supposedly, we simply can’t think of each person we meet as a fully-formed individual. I don’t think the author was particularly religious, but he did note that the Bible’s statement “Whatever you did for the least of these, you did for me” made a lot of sense in this context. That maybe you could think of people more easily as people if you classified all strangers as “Christ in another body”, thinking of them as a single very important person. I thought it was an interesting idea.

I very much agree that we need to make an effort to see everyone as a person, and that there are many things that can get in the way of that. Lust is only one of those things, and we can fight it by trying to see more of the whole person- by having a genuine concern for others and their lives. The better we get at agape love, the less room we’ll have for objectification.

 

[DMC12]

To me the main problem here in the modesty threads is the lack of comunication, some people think that this are for finding culprits, but no, this are supposed to be to look for people to help change the world, into a better place, where good is good and evil is rejected, where everyone lends a hand to those having problems to lessen them. this are not to make you feel guilty if you are already doing your part, thinking “I’ve done all that I could ,what else can I do?” but to look for more people to join the cause, to help change this into a place where you don’t find unnecesary temptations, speaking of this particular case, where you get shunned because dressing improperly not the contrary.

we are not looking for culprits, we are looking for allies to help us change the world.