Men Only - Effeminate Church Decor?

[Lux_et_veritas]

George Waters:

It seems the whole “effeminate issue” is nothing more than an excuse for men not to go to church. I guess for some not feeling “manly” is of greater concern than worshiping God.

Well, I’ll be the first to admit that no one should avoid Mass because they don’t like the decor. In fact, even an illicit Mass of some kind is a must if no other can be found.

On the other hand, men have often been at the receiving end of whatever and quietly tolerate it, until … someone asks how they feel about it.

I just wanted to hear what some of the men thought based on that radio show host’s comment. He was not trying to make excuses either for people to not go to Church, but said that it will not making it any easier to convince that male % to start increasing with things that drive a perception that it is a ladies thing. Neutralize it.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Church Decor that would draw me to Mass at your parish:

http://www.st-thomascamas.org/images/altarboys_clr.gif

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

JKirkLVNV:

The cathedral in Los Angeles has a EDIT “Non-traditional” version of the Blessed Mother. If this is a trend, then count me out!

olacathedral.org/

Holy Mother of God! That’s her above the bronze doors!!! What have they done to our Blessed Mother?

I thought you were exaggerating or something. Please tell me that is not a statue of the Queen of Angels :nope:

If it is her, then yeah, EDIT “non-traditional” is very descriptive.

EDIT: It is her based on the text within the description of work on the Great Bronze Doors. :crying:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[she_he]

Lux_et_veritas:

It sounds like some of you feel that the effeminate issue may be cultural as well as physical. I hadn’t really thought of the cultural aspect.

Why then, if you don’t mind a followup question, do men refrain from involvment, or even better, what has prevented some of you from getting involved?

Like I said what sparked this was hearing a comment on Catholic radio by someone, could have been a Catholic psychologist who was addressing the issue of boys not wanting to go to church. He talked about it being effeminate and suggested changes were needed to make boys feel more at home there. I don’t recall the entire scope and maybe someone out there does recall hearing teh comment and who made it to shed more light. Did the person talk about it being clutural or physical/architectural?

Ok as far as decorations go I think that is an excuse, Ill admit the
statues of mary look a little “gayish” the way they always have her hands,but its a decoration,

as far as why more men are not “involved” well blame part on peer pressures, part on selfishness,and part on family.

Most not all men work very hard for thier families,some 2 Jobs and many 6 days a week. Most men Need to Unwind in some ways, I will use fishing as the example,Maybe they have one day to fish, get up early take the kids with them (this makes it almost work most of the time but enjoyable) get home early enough to attend church maybe,but clean the catch, then clean to become presentable,now also take in the kids that had to do the same.
sometimes i think it comes down to time.The more involved you become with the church the less time you have with your Family.
In a lot of homes (not all) kids are very close to mom because she is “there” for them, Dads get kind of robbed on time with the kids
and want to make up for it.

some men just want to spend all thier free time on things they want to do,Bars,fishing with buddies,etc ( selfishness)

some men dont want to be persecuted at work because they “have religion” this is something i see everyday directed at coworkers whom “push” scripture or teachings…so in defense some men just side step active involvement…(peer pressures)

I am not saying these are all valid or good reasons, the first example I think is admirable at least, I think this list will at least give you some ideas about what goes on with us “guys”
John

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

she_he:

Ok as far as decorations go I think that is an excuse, Ill admit the
statues of mary look a little “gayish” the way they always have her hands,but its a decoration,

as far as why more men are not “involved” well blame part on peer pressures, part on selfishness,and part on family.

Most not all men work very hard for thier families,some 2 Jobs and many 6 days a week. Most men Need to Unwind in some ways, I will use fishing as the example,Maybe they have one day to fish, get up early take the kids with them (this makes it almost work most of the time but enjoyable) get home early enough to attend church maybe,but clean the catch, then clean to become presentable,now also take in the kids that had to do the same.
sometimes i think it comes down to time.The more involved you become with the church the less time you have with your Family.
In a lot of homes (not all) kids are very close to mom because she is “there” for them, Dads get kind of robbed on time with the kids
and want to make up for it.

some men just want to spend all thier free time on things they want to do,Bars,fishing with buddies,etc ( selfishness)

some men dont want to be persecuted at work because they “have religion” this is something i see everyday directed at coworkers whom “push” scripture or teachings…so in defense some men just side step active involvement…(peer pressures)

I am not saying these are all valid or good reasons, the first example I think is admirable at least, I think this list will at least give you some ideas about what goes on with us “guys”

                                John

Addressing the first I see two serious flaws, and I got from it that while admirable, you did not condone the reasoning. Lets explore further, with contrast. I see this in several men to whom I’m close to. I do see the exhaustion and the need to unwind. If I had the guts, I would like to tell them these things: The greatest percentage of moms out there work outside of the home - many of them single moms, and they still come faithfully each Sunday or Saturday evening, kids in tow.

Somewhere out there is a woman whose husband use to drink and beat her. She divorced him. She had three young kids, put herself through school, and got a job. She works 40-45 hours weekly, sometimes 50. She comes home does the laundry, cooking, cleaning, helped the kids with their homework, takes them to various functions, and…takes her family to Church every Saturday or Sunday.

But the most important consideration for men with this particular problem is this:

It is by the grace of God:

• that you have the kids that you have that you want to spend time with.
• that you have the job that you have to provide your kids and spouse with the food, medicine and basic care items, with some left over for toys and fun stuff.
• that you have the spouse that you have
• that you have life and an opportunity to spend eternity with God.

That is only the tip of the iceberg. Now, doesn’t God deserve at least one hour per week of unconditional worship?

 

[TobyLue]

Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV The cathedral in Los Angeles has a "EDITnon-traditional version" version of the Blessed Mother. If this is a trend, then count me out!

olacathedral.org/

You know, I seem to remember an old Star Trek episode many years ago where Spock was taking some former captain of another shipwho had been in an accident to some distant planet. That former captain was in such bad shape that he was in some box and would only respond yes or no with a light in front of the box. The aliens were controling all the thoughts and could make people imagine things that were not real. That statue really reminds me of those aliens.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

TobyLue:

You know, I seem to remember an old Star Trek episode many years ago where Spock was taking some former captain of another shipwho had been in an accident to some distant planet. That former captain was in such bad shape that he was in some box and would only respond yes or no with a light in front of the box. The aliens were controling all the thoughts and could make people imagine things that were not real. That statue really reminds me of those aliens.

oh dear Lord forgive me for laughing, but that is so true. At least from as far away as it is. It is the pointy sleeves at the shoulder and short hair that does it.

 

[she_he]

Lux_et_veritas:

Addressing the first I see two serious flaws, and I got from it that while admirable, you did not condone the reasoning. Lets explore further, with contrast. I see this in several men to whom I’m close to. I do see the exhaustion and the need to unwind. If I had the guts, I would like to tell them these things: The greatest percentage of moms out there work outside of the home - many of them single moms, and they still come faithfully each Sunday or Saturday evening, kids in tow.

Somewhere out there is a woman whose husband use to drink and beat her. She divorced him. She had three young kids, put herself through school, and got a job. She works 40-45 hours weekly, sometimes 50. She comes home does the laundry, cooking, cleaning, helped the kids with their homework, takes them to various functions, and…takes her family to Church every Saturday or Sunday.

But the most important consideration for men with this particular problem is this:

It is by the grace of God:

• that you have the kids that you have that you want to spend time with.
• that you have the job that you have to provide your kids and spouse with the food, medicine and basic care items, with some left over for toys and fun stuff.
• that you have the spouse that you have
• that you have life and an opportunity to spend eternity with God.

That is only the tip of the iceberg. Now, doesn’t God deserve at least one hour per week of unconditional worship?

I am not denying what you added to my post, I merely posted some reasons why men do not “participate more” I didnt take the term participate to mean that “one hour per week” you stated at the end i took it to mean extra time as in a “decorating committee”,etc etc etc …
also when “we” men do get more involved we tend to have our “Ideas” analized,broken down and redirected into a path they were not even intended for. A prime example being my previous post.
and me having to come back and post an explanation in how i took the term “more Involved” or that i didnt say ALL men and by that left out the women whom do the same things because they work,raise kids etc…

Oh well I was warned long ago
John

 

[rwoehmke]

In my 70 year lifetime I have met very few men or boys who saw going to church or doing churchy things as masculine. There were of course exceptions but by and large being too interested in Church would get you shunned by the guys. The gals on the other hand seemed to appreciate the “holy guys” that didn’t try to grope them on a first date. I have been a “churchy” kind of guy all my life and I can tell you that the fastest way to turn off guys is to start talking about Godly things. I had four college(old fashioned Catholic college) room mates who I would meet in Chicago for dinner when I was in town. Try to share something about ones faith life and the next sentence out of their mouths was to change the subject. Men’s general lack of interest is not a new movement. When it cames to action things like basketball tournaments, or pancake breakfasts the local Knights were outstanding. In the last 20 years our Council has actually started to be more involved with Faith related activities rather than it going the other way as seems to be implied by these posts. If anything dispite the overwhelmingly high visibility of our women I think that more men are involved with their Church than ever before. That obviously does not apply to vocations to the priesthood.

One other comment I would make on that issue is that back in the olden days when most parishes had more than one priest, they(usually the young assistants) seemed to have more time to do athletic things with the boys in the parish. I am thinking that that had quite an impact on the number of guys that decided to try the Sem. Today our priests are run so ragged I cannot imagine any of them even having time to do more than just breath.

 

[Brain]

Lux_et_veritas:

Holy Mother of God! That’s her above the bronze doors!!! What have they done to our Blessed Mother?

I thought you were exaggerating or something. Please tell me that is not a statue of the Queen of Angels :nope:

If it is her, then yeah, EDIT non-traditional version" is very descriptive.

EDIT: It is her based on the text within the description of work on the Great Bronze Doors. :crying:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Wow, who knew? Mary was a samurai and a man! This changes EVERYTHING!

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Brain:

Wow, who knew? Mary was a samurai and a man! This changes EVERYTHING!

I’ve been thinking about thist. If I hadn’t read the description I would have thought it was the concept of feminist nuns because it appears they left her without her veil, as well. I’m surprised she isn’t wearing pants (not that there is anything wrong with ladies in pants, its just not very virgin-mother like for her era).

 

[Al_Masetti]

I think (personal belief) that a lot of men quit going to Mass when it became OBLIGATORY to receive Holy Communion every Sunday.

It used to be that a LOT of people didn’t receive Communion. Reason? Artificial birth control? Ate breakfast just before Mass? I don’t know.

BUT, someone started the practice of “enforced hospitality”… ushers had to be “greeters” and be nice to everyone… the noise level is so high at the doors of the church, that it permeates into the main area and you can’t hear yourself think.

THEN, at Communion time, the ushers MARCH down to the first pew and virtually haul everyone out of the pews to receive Communion.

Well, I am guessing that a lot of people are not “properly disposed” and they hold the Consecrated Host in too much reverence to receive Holy Communion in that state. So to avoid public humiliation, they simply stay home.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Lux_et_veritas:

I’ve been thinking about thist. If I hadn’t read the description I would have thought it was the concept of feminist nuns because it appears they left her without her veil, as well. I’m surprised she isn’t wearing pants (not that there is anything wrong with ladies in pants, its just not very virgin-mother like for her era).

I have been in meetings at Church where some nun from the main diocesan office got up and claimed we were no longer doing “vertical prayer”; instead we were now doing “horizontal prayer”.

In addition to holding hands, it is also reflected in church architecture, where instead of majestic VERTICAL lines and spires, the churchs look like frozen food lockers… sometimes in a round configuration, so we can look at one another instead of looking at Jesus.

 

[asquared]

Al Masetti:

I think (personal belief) that a lot of men quit going to Mass when it became OBLIGATORY to receive Holy Communion every Sunday.

It .

it is not and never has been obligatory to receive Holy communion every Sunday. the instructions for ushers specifically forbid the practice of “hauling people out of the pew”.

 

[Isidore_AK]

Lux_et_veritas:

Holy Mother of God! That’s her above the bronze doors!!! What have they done to our Blessed Mother?

I thought you were exaggerating or something. Please tell me that is not a statue of the Queen of Angels :nope:

If it is her, then yeah, EDIT “non-traditional version” " is very descriptive.

EDIT: It is her based on the text within the description of work on the Great Bronze Doors. :crying:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Thats Mary?!? I always thought it was a statue of a Romulan…

 

[St.BJLabre]

unreasonable stands against firearms, war, and capital punishment

Just goes to show you that cafeteria Catholicism is on both sides of the political spectrum.

 

[St.BJLabre]

By the way OLA Cathedral is incredible. The only complaint I have, and it is kind of a big one, is that they don’t have kneelers.

 

[Brendan]

St.BJLabre:

Just goes to show you that cafeteria Catholicism is on both sides of the political spectrum.

Really, I get my understanding of firearms right from the Vatican

the right of legitimate defence by means of arms exists. This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, for the common good of the family or of the civil community. This right ALONE can justify the possession of arms.

Link Here

And, of course, Thomas Aquinas

it is lawful for persons to have recourse to the sword in defending that common weal against internal disturbances, when they punish evil-doers, according to the words of the Apostle (Rm. 13:4): “He beareth not the sword in vain: for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil”; (ST II, 40)

So this Catholic is dining right from the Chef

 

[Brendan]

Isidore_AK:

Thats Mary?!? I always thought it was a statue of a Romulan…

Our Lady, Queen of Cloaking Devices

 

[St.BJLabre]

Really, I get my understanding of firearms right from the Vatican

Quote:
the right of legitimate defence by means of arms exists. This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, for the common good of the family or of the civil community. This right ALONE can justify the possession of arms.

Link Here

And, of course, Thomas Aquinas

Quote:
it is lawful for persons to have recourse to the sword in defending that common weal against internal disturbances, when they punish evil-doers, according to the words of the Apostle (Rm. 13:4): “He beareth not the sword in vain: for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil”; (ST II, 40)

So this Catholic is dining right from the Chef

Do you really believe that the people who own guns actually need them for protection? Its saying, “we need guns to protect us from people who have guns”. Its a ridiculous argument and does not apply to the situation in the US. I am more concerned that Caelicola believes that the Church’s stance on capital punishment and war are unreasonable. That’s kind of scary.