Men prefer debt free virgins

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I can think of a lot of different cases where people we know have gotten substantial financial help as 20-somethings. (Heck, we’re 40-somethings, and the kids’ grandma and grandpa just gave us a sofa scholarship.)

It makes a profound difference as to how easy it is to avoid debt how much family support is available to young adults–student loans being only one of many examples…

When people say “men prefer debt-free virgins” (as in the thread title) one of the things they are saying (whether or not they understand this or not) is that they want a woman who has sane, helpful, financially secure parents. All of those are excellent things–but having sane, helpful, financially secure parents is a blessing, not an achievement by the woman herself.
 
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I was one of those that got hid hard by the 2008 recession, undergoing two layoffs in as many years.

I found jobs soon enough for which I am thankful although I had to be willing to relocate to find employment.

You are right. When STEM jobs get hit they get hit hard. The defense industry goes through boom and bust cycles so much so that it’s not if you get laid off but when you get laid off. At least that’s true in my case.

When I graduated from University I lived with my parents for about two years before I found a job that paid enough for me to be financially independent. Before then, I got jobs that did pay but did not pay enough to get an apartment in Honolulu. My parents charged me rent at about a third of the average rental cost in Honolulu.
 
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This x1,000. I’ve been a SAHM and despise the idea of being compelled to be a housewife with a bunch of babies in tow.

That might work for some people, and power to them if that’s a choice which is freely made. There are as many lifestyles out there as preferences, and being at home should be an option for men AND women if that choice is made freely and mutually within the family.

However, the sum total value of women is not their vaginas and effective dowries (debt). I agree- I thought modern Catholicism was past that. If you ever want to wind me up, we can chat Humanae Vitae and Mulieres Dignitatem, and the hatchet job done in the inferred view of the “natural” role of women. Just…ugh.
 
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Right- there’s a difference between productive capital secured through debt financing (properly considered investment) and consumer credit that goes towards consumables.

If I’m starting a business, have a solid patent or distribution strategy, and I’m taking on commercial debt at prime plus 1% to avoid diluting equity shares, that’s potentially a good financial decision.

If I’m low-income, and my lender of last resort is a payday loan if I meet with unforeseen circumstances (e.g. medical bills, car damage), I could pay up to an effective 600% simple interest rate on an annualized basis. However, that might still be a rational decision, despite the usurious rates, because it eliminates other barriers to productive activity.

It’s not cut and dry— financial decisions need to be made contextually on the margin.

A little side rant…this is why I am so irritated by debt = bad discussions. Debt is an agnostic measure unless it’s benchmarked against something meaningful (e.g. disposable income, equity, interest rate spreads, real option value, etc.)

I can see many circumstances where someone heavily indebted is actually making very sound choices. It all comes down to mapping the debt horizon, cash flows, and building a solid decision tree.
 
All thoughtful points.

And yes, I’ve sustained >10% real compound annual returns in my portfolio for over a decade now. It can be done, though it’s admittedly getting harder with demographic change and real economic growth of 2% as the new norm. (Dare I make a financial joke about “chasing alpha”?) 🙂
 
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Maybe, but I think that’s partly a cultural artefact of the US market, owing to the strength of credit card companies’ bargaining power in financial services and the loose housing regulatory framework.

It does come down to self control or, if you’re lazy like me, early conscious thought and automation. True, it requires a mentality shift from “why shouldn’t I buy this” to “why do I need this, and why now”? With the latter, it gets easier and easier to appreciate what you have, because it’s so deliberately chosen.

Also, I think one of the most effective antidotes to over-spending is effective and regular investment. It’s so gratifying to invest and reap the benefits of compound interest. If I can kick a daily Starbucks habit of $4/day, in 20 years, I’m
$52k richer at 5% real interest per year. That’s a very material quality of life improvement from limited restraint. For many people, that could mean retiring a year early, sending a child to private high school, or taking a trip around the world over several months! It’s amazing how many budgetary inefficiencies likecthay exist that hold people back.
 
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alphawoman said:
A little side rant…this is why I am so irritated by debt = bad discussions.
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I dislike debt a lot–but I dislike treating debt as equivalent to sin even more.
alphawoman said:
(Dare I make a financial joke about “chasing alpha”?) 🙂
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You can, but I don’t promise to understand!
alphawoman said:
If I can kick a daily Starbucks habit of $4/day, in 20 years, I’m
$52k richer at 5% real interest per year.
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I know that’s everybody’s favorite example of easy cutbacks, but Starbucks would have to make their beverages $8 and/or start performing human sacrifices before I knocked the habit.
 
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Yes. Financial decisions are affected by context.

The way I see it, everything is paid for somehow. Some things are paid in money. Some are paid in time and energy. Some are paid in stress. And you can put yourself in energy-debt or stress-debt too. Those also have to be paid - and you can’t default on them.
 
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Yeh… I don’t agree totally with you!

The woman with a BA and 20 000s in student loans is attractive for how??

Really it depends!

If the woman want to stay at home and the husband too (or not), as many Catholics. Sorry, but she is not a desirable spouse.

A woman in this situation needs to work, work, work. And her husband too. To the detriment of their own life’s choice and their children.
 
Same with a man with 20,000 in student loans. His debt is directly pulling from family resources. In fact, his debt means more hours, less time with family and his wife working to help make ends meet.

Why is his debt acceptable but hers is not?

I don’t buy into the whole…all women must be SAHMs…because their kids will be deprived, somehow.

Studies have proved…at least in the US…that couples with bachelors degrees are much more stable, less likely to divorce, and produce well rounded, stable children who are able to launch themselves. It’s easy enough to google to see the evidence.

I work because I choose to. Because it gives my kids a much more stable life, allows them to go an excellent private school and gives them a stable roof over their head. I tried to be a SAHM and was miserable, we were broke on one income…without any student loan debt to begin with…and
I needed to make a change. I went back to school and figured out a way to go to college and graduate with zero debt.

I have daughters. They will learn that it’s worth it to go to college, to work and provide for themselves and their family. They shouldn’t rely on others to do it for them.
That your degree, your qualifications, your certifications./license is worth it and something to be proud of.

That you don’t have to be a SAHM if you don’t want to and to never feel guilty if you go out and work.
 
And the reverse the same.
I find on this forum, and this thread, the blame is done on SAHM.

I will add having university high diploma is not a guarantee to have a better paid job, or a job that requiered the level we have. Statistics will only shows that people with higher education will experience less long experiences of unployment than others. But degree don’t prevent them completely.
At elast where I live, and in my experience.
 
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Anicette said:
The woman with a BA and 20 000s in student loans is attractive for how??

Really it depends!

If the woman want to stay at home and the husband too (or not), as many Catholics. Sorry, but she is not a desirable spouse.

A woman in this situation needs to work, work, work. And her husband too. To the detriment of their own life’s choice and their children.
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As another poster mentioned, at least in the US, it is clearly the case that men prefer to marry women with a BA. In the US today, women with only high school tend to have children out of wedlock, have trouble getting married, and divorce more.

Obviously, there are exceptions, but being a US woman today with only a high school education is a hard road.

Also, how is she supposed to support herself as a single woman with no education and no profession?

In practice, it’s a lot easier to be a woman with a BA and $20k in debt than a woman with just a high school diploma and no debt. It is more than possible to pay off that amount of debt in two years as a single woman with the earnings of a teacher or a nurse.

Also (and this may not be obvious to you living in a different healthcare system), it’s usually harder for a high school graduate to get a job that provides medical insurance than it is for a college graduate. Also, in practice, a low-income woman with no debt is likely to wind up in substantial medical debt if she doesn’t have good health insurance.
 
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I’ve been on both sides of the equation. While I’ve never been a single mom…I was working as an EMT once I graduated from high school. No college. It paid next to nothing to live on. I had to live with my parent…even when I worked overtime…it paid so little. I quit to stay at home after I got married because there was no point for me to work. I didn’t want to…but my whole paycheck would have been eaten away in childcare.

With a BS…I make more than double what I made with overtime as an EMT and I work less hours…no childcare.

It is a no brainer…for my husband and I. I work overnights…and we use a babysitter a few nights a week when my kids sleep to cover gaps when I leave and my husband gets home.

Even if I had some debt…it would have been completely worth it. We went from barely making ends meet to comfortably middle class…just because I decided to get my bachelors.
 
Just to comment on the health insurance…I paid through the nose for basic coverage when I had my EMT job. That was after I paid my dues and waited for enough seniority to get a full time shift. I had no coverage for months when I was per diem.

When I had emergency surgery…I owed a few thousand dollars…WITH coverage. It took me two years to pay off…along with my other bills.

Hubby and I have fantastic coverage because we have professional jobs…even if one gets laid off…we can be picked up again with my job. Hubbys is much better…I pay very little for doctors appointments and paid almost nothing for my prenatal care and L&D in the hospital.

I work at a hospital and if you are using their network…most of the care is completely covered. We’d have to travel a little more since I work 30 mins from my house.
 
I have a BA and MA that I “don’t use” because I am a stay-at-home mom. But I still think the BA at least was very worth it. The MA (for teaching) was useless in terms of actually learning very much, but it may come in very handy because we are considering moving to homeschooling, and with a teaching degree and license, navigating my state’s wacky homeschool laws is a lot simpler.
 
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