Men's Rights and the Catholic Church

[FoxFanForty]

YES!! Bravo!! I could not possibly agree with you more!!

I absolutely detest the double wammy thrust upon women today!! I also detest that for to great of an amount, men have abdicated their responsibilities in general and also not value mothers enough! How many times on TV do we see Husband and Wife mocking and ridiculing each other on TV!!:bigyikes:

Spot on about the Komen foundation as well!!

Where are the men that should be fighting for the right of Komen to do as they wish and not be bullied by Planned Parenthood?

We failed to protect woman in the Garden. We must not fail here on earth as well.

We must not let women be drafted for Combat. We need our mothers.

Roosevelt; " A nation is only as strong as it’s mothers."

As for the dating - here is an example of the truly Feminist-ized male.

youtube.com/watch?v=F_PTxpIjGXE

Good Grief.

We can’t possibly be talking about education “damaging” women. That is a very backward thought, one that was used for a long time to keep women out of academia and stuck in the home, under men’s authority. I have daughters. I expect them to go to college. I’ll be damned if they will be kept down so that a man has ultimate financial control over them. You never know when that man will up and leave, die or become disabled. My girls need to know that if they have to or want to, they can get good work. And Who wants an uneducated wife? Sheesh. My wife stays home for now, because our kids are young. She has a masters’ degree. I know she could take care of business when and if she had to. And hey - we can talk about real adult stuff as peers! What a concept!

 

[FoxFanForty]

Yes… And* then* there is the ‘Latch key kid’ issues…other people raising our children! The cancers that develop in women due to the Feminist advocated birth control pills that is declared a class one carcinogen by the WHO. (World Health Organization.) Speaking of birth control…who ever thought assuring that the woman was to made readily available to men for sex on demand for men, thanks to the pill was 'liberating?’ This is a pro - woman idea? At the risk of cancer? No. I have to believe that much machination is going on in terms of profiteers (the pill makers and others) that are funding ‘Disguised Pseudo Feminism’ and assuring it’s viability by way of social engineering a la TV and the educational system.

What about educated women that know the risks, and want to have sex with their spouses without becoming pregnant? Women want frequent sex just as much as men do, and are usually the ones insisting on birth control because they bear the brunt of the stress of a pregnancy and newborn? It’s not about men wanting sex whenever they want it.

 

[Nimzovik]

We can’t possibly be talking about education “damaging” women. That is a very backward thought, one that was used for a long time to keep women out of academia and stuck in the home, under men’s authority. I have daughters. I expect them to go to college. I’ll be damned if they will be kept down so that a man has ultimate financial control over them. You never know when that man will up and leave, die or become disabled. My girls need to know that if they have to or want to, they can get good work. And Who wants an uneducated wife? Sheesh. My wife stays home for now, because our kids are young. She has a masters’ degree. I know she could take care of business when and if she had to. And hey - we can talk about real adult stuff as peers! What a concept!

Oh get a grip! let us not mischaracterize my views on education now…

Sheeeeesh!

 

[Nimzovik]

What about educated women that know the risks, and want to have sex with their spouses without becoming pregnant? Women want frequent sex just as much as men do, and are usually the ones insisting on birth control because they bear the brunt of the stress of a pregnancy and newborn? It’s not about men wanting sex whenever they want it.

Welllllllllllllllllll… That would be in violation of the Catholic Doctrine now wouldn’t it? I can not reach secular Feminist /atheistic/ women. Such as these are all already awash in the sea of chaos.

Simple really.

 

[Nimzovik]

You and I are just not going to agree on this. I don’t think society owes you a vacation with your kids, and I don’t think it’s fair to place the burden of having kids on your poor employer or fellow taxpayers. I cannot simply hire a new legal assistant. It took me years to train mine. She knows my practice, she knows me. She’s not a dime a dozen. There’s not another person equally as skilled waiting on the corner.She leaves for a year, it’s a disaster for me. Even her two weeks vacation is a nightmare. My business simply cannot function with her taking a year off every two or three years. I am floored that any employee would have the gall to ask their employer to put up with that.

I’d rather keep my tax money, put it away or invest it, and cover my own vacation or my wife’s with my own money. I suspect this is just one of those European vs. American things. We will never understand your tolerance of socialism or your complicity with taking from your neighbor. We prefer not to have the government redistribute our income (unless you are the louse who is on the dole!)

As I said, a real man supports his family. Obviously if he is totally disabled that is another story. No way would I have my wife working unless she wanted to. No way would I ask my fellow Americans to cover a year long vacay. A sahd might not be a louse, but there is something very odd about that dynamic.

Again, we are just not going to agree. American businesses would collapse under socialism and most of us find the entire concept disgusting.

And no - my wife is not sitting around at home. But no need for both of us to be there when one could be working.

I do not think anyone here is denying a woman a right to work…ok?

 

[Nimzovik]

Odd, but I find that men are often drawn to girl’s suffering.

I have seen similar shows and some are horrible.Can’t say anything more about that than they are horrific. I am glad they have these shows so human rights groups can get in there. I’ve also seen a show where a mom and day worked their fingers to the bone in the city while the grandmother took care of their two children in rural China trying to advance their children in education. The 17 year old daughter rebelled , dropped out of school and went to work at a bar. Made you sick after all these two parents had been through.

Not all for, but for many, abortion is their solution. They are now empowered to leave and don’t want to go back.

Abortion is never a solution.

 

[Nimzovik]

I’m not your bro. I wouldn’t be able to spend five minutes with someone like you. “FATHER Knows Best??” Really - you want to go back to that? That’s some serious problems with women you got there, man. I have to assume you aren’t married.

What is your problem with American women? They’re too smart for you - don’t want to stay home and have your dinner and the paper ready when you walk through the door at night and take your patronizing bull$#!t? You can’t hang with an educated woman who thinks for herself?

I can’t believe the talk about finding a wife overseas to avoid the modern American woman. Mail order brides? For real? So you can find a terrified and uneducated woman who will obey you and submit to your crazy?

Happily married for many years here. Kids, a house, the whole nine yards. My wife is the best thing that’s ever happened to me, and a wonderful mother to my kids. And yes, I’d say she’s a pro-life feminist with an education and a point of view. Maybe in your opinion I should discipline her for being too opinionated!

Grow a pair, guys. Quit whining about how your “rights” are being stepped on just because women have spoken up. You want an obedient little wife waiting at home for you? Yeah, some insecure guys find that appealing. Healthy men want a woman who meets them eye to eye every day. A real man would never let women be drafted. A real man submits his own needs for the good of females. I’m glad research in the medical field goes to women and children first - for God’s sake! It’s our duty to take a back seat to make sure women are protected!

Oversimplification. Mischaracterization. I need not say more.

 

[Litcrit]

I suspect this is just one of those European vs. American things. We will never understand your tolerance of socialism or your complicity with taking from your neighbor. We prefer not to have the government redistribute our income (unless you are the louse who is on the dole!)

I suspect it is, too. I will never understand your extreme individualism and lack of solidarity for even the weakest and most innocent.

As I said, a real man supports his family. Obviously if he is totally disabled that is another story. No way would I have my wife working unless she wanted to. No way would I ask my fellow Americans to cover a year long vacay. A sahd might not be a louse, but there is something very odd about that dynamic.

Again, in my view, a real man also actively fathers his own children and a real woman also supports her family financially.

We cover each others’ “vacays” gladly because we believe it is important for parents to be able to personally take care of their very small children and we believe it is useful work that needs to be rewarded.

It its precisely this vague feeling that “there is something very odd” about a SAHD that I attempt to deconstruct as a feminist who strongly believes in men’s family rights.

Based on what does a culture form a view that parenting = mothering? And that father = money provider, easily dispensable and replaceable with a monthly check after a divorce? And that active fathering = loafing around and not being a real man?

And no - my wife is not sitting around at home. But no need for both of us to be there when one could be working.

And no need for you to be away from your children for long hours every day when both of you could be working part-time.

Do you miss your children when you work? Do you wish you could spend more time with them? Do they wish they could spend more time with you? If so, does society pay enough attention to this need? If not, that to me is discrimination against men.

 

[Nimzovik]

You don’t have to go to work! And you don’t have to go to work! You don’t have to go to work!! In your socialist scheme, who pays while all these parents aren’t working? What happens to small businesses when their employees are out for 6-12 months (like in Europe?) My wife stays home. That’s the way she wants it, and it works for us. We don’t want our kids in daycare. I’m usually back to work 2-3 days after we have a baby. Someone has to pay the bills. I certainly don’t want taxpayer’s money floating me while I sit around at home, able bodied. Having kids is our choice and our responsibility.

In our state women get 6 weeks of disability after a birth to physically recover. Men don’t need that. Both are given the opportunity to take an additional 6 weeks, unpaid, family leave. It’s not other people’s responsibility to pay for you to take an extended vacation when you have a baby. If you haven’t made arrangements for mom to be able to stay home or take a long time off work, not my fault. My wife has stayed home with every kid because I bust my butt and we make it happen. If your husband is too much of a louse to support the family, sorry. And if you like to work and want to keep your job, great! But you shouldn’t get a year of taxpayer money so you can chill at home for months and months.

What happened to families taking care of their own needs?

Oh my! There is actually a** degree** of truth in this Post!

Who woulda thunk it?

 

[Nimzovik]

The video of a mainstream television show was of American women. This seems to be an American female thing joined in help with a good many European females.

This doesn’t seem to be as prevalent a thing with women in various parts of Asia for example.

There are just things in the United States that are not going to change. If anything they will only go further in the direction they are already in. I’m confident of that. I know that.

I’m pretty satisfied in my own trajectory. But everybody has to find their own way.

I wasn’t really thinking about being “traditional” per se. Actually, I don’t think I much care about that. However, another man might.

I was thinking of more humanistic qualities. Certain qualities much more abundant in women of non-Western nations.

Lol I found this a little humorous, gam, not laughing at you but just the notion. It reminds me of those in Gary, Indiana and Detroit, Michigan that think their (respectively) cities are going to return to some glory days.

I have to tell myself that about Milwaukee at times too. Part of me thinks about staying here forever to help make some investment into the city but then the wiser voice in me that does not want to face reality that much reminds me that if opportunity to leave comes, to take it for better shores.

To me all that stuff is superficial. And any woman raised Christian means little to nothing to me as she’s probably the spawn of Satan. I was thinking more Muslim or Hindu women from some place like Lebanon or India. And not because of their religion so much as their culture. Maybe that’s intertwined I don’t know.

I met a woman the other day pure Americana, older than myself, now working on her GED. She has the kind of physique I like. Very much so. She probably was reared Protestant too. But I’ve had to ask myself some questions.

There may be some Hindu woman in India built less physically attractive than her (or maybe more!) but who would make a better mother to my children (with her) and life companion. The Hindu woman might have a Ph.D. and be my better in many ways. She might be a professional that enjoys her work and earning her own income.

So, for me, this is not about “traditional” or “submission.”

But more importantly everyone has their own wants, likes, and their own life to live. Not everyone is seeking or wants the same thing. So, for another perhaps limiting themselves to Catholic or Protestant raised women is important for them (maybe right for them). If it doesn’t work out for them in the end then I guess… consequences of their choices and wants.

**Bolding Mine: **

Oh yes?

"…To me all that stuff is superficial. And any woman raised Christian means little to nothing to me as she’s probably the spawn of Satan."

This is the extent of your enlightened path is it?

 

[FoxFanForty]

I suspect it is, too. I will never understand your extreme individualism and lack of solidarity for even the weakest and most innocent.

Again, in my view, a real man also actively fathers his own children and a real woman also supports her family financially.

We cover each others’ “vacays” gladly because we believe it is important for parents to be able to personally take care of their very small children and we believe it is useful work that needs to be rewarded.

It its precisely this vague feeling that “there is something very odd” about a SAHD that I attempt to deconstruct as a feminist who strongly believes in men’s family rights.

Based on what does a culture form a view that parenting = mothering? And that father = money provider, easily dispensable and replaceable with a monthly check after a divorce? And that active fathering = loafing around and not being a real man?

And no need for you to be away from your children for long hours every day when both of you could be working part-time.

Do you miss your children when you work? Do you wish you could spend more time with them? Do they wish they could spend more time with you? If so, does society pay enough attention to this need? If not, that to me is discrimination against men.

Both work part time? With no benefits, then? Part time jobs pay about $10 an hour. Two part time jobs does not equal one full time job. They are extremely hard to find, too.

I miss my kids, but I take them to school in the morning, play with them at night, help with homework, do bedtime stuff, share a meal. Weekends are for hanging out as a family. Soccer games, birthday parties, church and working around the house together.

I am the breadwinner in our family, but I am not dispensable. Why would you think that? My kids adore me and my wife and I have a strong marriage. I coach soccer, go to teacher conferences, take the kids on weekend day trips. I am an active dad. I also have to work and take pride in doing so.

And I set our family up properly so that my kids don’t need to be in daycare. If I hadn’t, I certainly would not ask my fellow citizens for the cash to do so. How pathetic would that be. Kids deserve to be raised by their parents and it’s up to dad to ensure that happens. Yes, even if he has to nearly kill himself doing it. We take pride in that.

 

[Nimzovik]

Precisely.

These lists of “feminist” positions that get posted here on a regular basis are no better than lists of “Catholic” positions that some Protestants teach (Catholics worship idols, Catholics are pagans, Catholics believe the Pope can never sin, Catholics believe they can sin as much as they want and they will be magically forgiven via confession, and the like.)

I don’t see feminism as what you’ve described at all.

For me, as a third-wave feminist, feminism is about equality and challenging cultural stereotypes about gender, which hurt both men and women.

Perhaps feminism and men’s rights will evolve together into some sort of a Gender Equality movement that will fight for equality and civil rights for all humans specifically as this relates to gender.

I wholeheartedly agree. Third-wave feminism is reconnecting with the roots of feminism. Second-wave feminism, which seemed to seek liberation and equality through a Manichean rejection of the female body and motherhood, is through.

For me, feminism means equality. It means benefits for fathers as well as mothers. It means realizing that fathers too have families and care for their children and may not want to work long hours. It means paternity leaves and respect for SAHDs. It means not assuming that parent = mother and just giving children to mom as a default in divorce.

For me, feminism means rejecting harmful gender stereotypes. They hurt men *and *women. The Domestic Diva Supermom and the Klutzy Paycheck Sperm Donor Dad a.k.a. the Poor Housewife and the Alpha Male Provider are two sides of the same coin.

For me, feminism means loving and respecting my husband who is a great father, a SAHD who very actively fathers our girls. It means opposing those who want to put him down because he doesn’t “bring home the bacon”, as a “real man” should. It means opposing those who want to put him down because he enjoys and is great at “women’s work” - caring for our children, cooking, cleaning.

There is actually a battered men’s shelter in my country. Guess who’s there? Men who’d lost their jobs. As soon as they were unemployed, they were no longer useful and their wives started physically abusing them, and they didn’t fight back because society told them they deserved it because they were now not real men any more. When they couldn’t endure it any longer, they ran away. Many men become homeless this way.

As a feminist, I’m angry about this. A man is not sperm and a paycheck - just like a woman is not a uterus and a maid.

Interesting… Whatever legitimate, healthy and sane aspects you highlight in this post that you call Feminism, I call it being ‘Christic’ and Catholic.

 

[Nimzovik]

FoxFanForty Wrote:

Both work part time? With no benefits, then? Part time jobs pay about $10 an hour. Two part time jobs does not equal one full time job. They are extremely hard to find, too.

I miss my kids, but I take them to school in the morning, play with them at night, help with homework, do bedtime stuff, share a meal. Weekends are for hanging out as a family. Soccer games, birthday parties, church and working around the house together.

I am the breadwinner in our family, but I am not dispensable. Why would you think that? My kids adore me and my wife and I have a strong marriage. I coach soccer, go to teacher conferences, take the kids on weekend day trips. I am an active dad. I also have to work and take pride in doing so.

And I set our family up properly so that my kids don’t need to be in daycare. If I hadn’t, I certainly would not ask my fellow citizens for the cash to do so. How pathetic would that be. Kids deserve to be raised by their parents and it’s up to dad to ensure that happens. Yes, even if he has to nearly kill himself doing it. We take pride in that.

Nimzovik Reponds:

I must say you do indeed seem to be actually living the so- called "Father Knows Best’ 50’s life stye .

I find your statement "…Yes, even if he has to nearly kill himself doing it. We take pride in that. " to be quite spot on.

The denigration of the ‘Self Sacrificeing Male’ is just one of the things that I rail agaisnt the Feminist movement for. Such grand examples of the male’s true qualities are so trivialized and downgraded in todays Femininist - ized Society, as evidenced by American Television.

 

[FoxFanForty]

FoxFanForty Wrote:

Both work part time? With no benefits, then? Part time jobs pay about $10 an hour. Two part time jobs does not equal one full time job. They are extremely hard to find, too.

I miss my kids, but I take them to school in the morning, play with them at night, help with homework, do bedtime stuff, share a meal. Weekends are for hanging out as a family. Soccer games, birthday parties, church and working around the house together.

I am the breadwinner in our family, but I am not dispensable. Why would you think that? My kids adore me and my wife and I have a strong marriage. I coach soccer, go to teacher conferences, take the kids on weekend day trips. I am an active dad. I also have to work and take pride in doing so.

And I set our family up properly so that my kids don’t need to be in daycare. If I hadn’t, I certainly would not ask my fellow citizens for the cash to do so. How pathetic would that be. Kids deserve to be raised by their parents and it’s up to dad to ensure that happens. Yes, even if he has to nearly kill himself doing it. We take pride in that.

Nimzovik Reponds:

I must say you do indeed seem to be actually living the so- called "Father Knows Best’ 50’s life stye .

I find your statement "…Yes, even if he has to nearly kill himself doing it. We take pride in that. " to be quite spot on.

The denigration of the ‘Self Sacrificeing Male’ is just one of the things that I rail agaisnt the Feminist movement for. Such grand examples of the male’s true qualities are so trivialized and downgraded in todays Femininist - ized Society, as evidenced by American Television.

The thing is, I don’t know better than my wife. We just have different roles. Both of us are equal heads of household. Neither of or jobs is more important.

But yeah. I have nothing to say to a male who takes from the government so that he doesn’t have to work too much or too hard. I do not consider that type of male to be a real man, but a sad and pathetic excuse. I have no problem helping the weak and vulnerable. Orphans, the seriously disabled, widows and disaster victims. It’s my duty to step up for those people. It is NOT my duty to cover the expenses of able-bodied men and women just because they don’t feel like supporting themselves or have made poor choices.

 

[Nimzovik]

I can only agree with what you just said.

There may be some exceptons for some men…

However in terms of Headship and St.Paul…

 

[Litcrit]

We can’t possibly be talking about education “damaging” women. That is a very backward thought, one that was used for a long time to keep women out of academia and stuck in the home, under men’s authority. I have daughters. I expect them to go to college. I’ll be damned if they will be kept down so that a man has ultimate financial control over them. You never know when that man will up and leave, die or become disabled. My girls need to know that if they have to or want to, they can get good work. And Who wants an uneducated wife? Sheesh. My wife stays home for now, because our kids are young. She has a masters’ degree. I know she could take care of business when and if she had to. And hey - we can talk about real adult stuff as peers! What a concept!

Great points here. We have girls too.

Both work part time? With no benefits, then? Part time jobs pay about $10 an hour. Two part time jobs does not equal one full time job. They are extremely hard to find, too.

That’s horrible if that’s the case in the US! So it’s either work looong hours or have your job treated as little more than a hobby? No wonder you have such a strict work/parent divide. No wonder there are mommy wars and whatnot.

I miss my kids, but I take them to school in the morning, play with them at night, help with homework, do bedtime stuff, share a meal. Weekends are for hanging out as a family. Soccer games, birthday parties, church and working around the house together.

That’s amazing. It’s got to be extremely hard to balance all that.

I am the breadwinner in our family, but I am not dispensable. Why would you think that? My kids adore me and my wife and I have a strong marriage. I coach soccer, go to teacher conferences, take the kids on weekend day trips. I am an active dad. I also have to work and take pride in doing so.

Of course I don’t think that! What I meant was that because childrearing is seen as the woman’s job and providing money is seen as the man’s job, courts often give the children to the mother in divorces and make the father pay child support and rarely see the children. I disagree with this. I think fathers are very important. My girls adore their dad.

And I set our family up properly so that my kids don’t need to be in daycare. If I hadn’t, I certainly would not ask my fellow citizens for the cash to do so. How pathetic would that be. Kids deserve to be raised by their parents and it’s up to dad to ensure that happens. Yes, even if he has to nearly kill himself doing it. We take pride in that.

See, this is where we differ. I gladly support all the parents in my country through my taxes. We support each other. Like my husband and me - we share the loads. I don’t want to see anyone nearly killing themselves raising their family.

I’m the breadwinner but have spent and continue to spend a lot of time with my children. My job enables me to do so. Not too many hours, not too much money, all the benefits. I wouldn’t want to nearly kill myself nor my husband to have to do that.

 

[AlTheCollegeGal]

Hmmmmmmmm some pretty good points in the above posts during my absence.

Yet for all that I still do not want women to be drafted. I wonder what AtTheCollegeGirl thinks of this?

I would also like to see if **AtTheCollegeGirl **will refute the stats delivered at her door?

Must go for now…

Regards,
Nim.

AlTheCollegeGal knows the futility of debating an individual who is absolutely set in his or her ways.

 

[FoxFanForty]

Great points here. We have girls too.

That’s horrible if that’s the case in the US! So it’s either work looong hours or have your job treated as little more than a hobby? No wonder you have such a strict work/parent divide. No wonder there are mommy wars and whatnot.

That’s amazing. It’s got to be extremely hard to balance all that.

Of course I don’t think that! What I meant was that because childrearing is seen as the woman’s job and providing money is seen as the man’s job, courts often give the children to the mother in divorces and make the father pay child support and rarely see the children. I disagree with this. I think fathers are very important. My girls adore their dad.

U

See, this is where we differ. I gladly support all the parents in my country through my taxes. We support each other. Like my husband and me - we share the loads. I don’t want to see anyone nearly killing themselves raising their family.

I’m the breadwinner but have spent and continue to spend a lot of time with my children. My job enables me to do so. Not too many hours, not too much money, all the benefits. I wouldn’t want to nearly kill myself nor my husband to have to do that.

Working a 50 hour week is in no way a reason not to spend time with your kids. Most dads I know work full time, and most are involved with their children.

Employers want full time employees, obviously. Part time jobs tend to be for teens. There are some decent careers that you can do part time - nursing for example, you can work one or two days a week. As a lawyer, someday I hope to take my practice down to four days a week and maybe even three before retirement. That is a LONG way off, though. If you work in a middle or higher level position for a company, there is usually no part time option. If there is, it is bottom of the totem pole without benefits.

I know in Europe the work ethic is different. You get sometimes four or more weeks paid vacation a year! People want more free time and don’t want to work as hard. Here, hard work is valued and looked upon with respect. The man killing himself working two full time jobs to put his kids through school. The father spending long hours in the office to pay off his home early. The man with the bad back going to work in a coal mine so that his daughter can keep doing ballet. The old man spending 14 hour days doing manual labor on his land trying to keep the family farm afloat. These are values we have. Sure, there are plenty of takers, loafers, and half-assers. But hard work is a core American value and moat families find that only one member, typically the man, can work that hard.

 

[Nimzovik]

AlTheCollegeGal knows the futility of debating an individual who is absolutely set in his or her ways.

How…convenient.

 

[Nimzovik]

Working a 50 hour week is in no way a reason not to spend time with your kids. Most dads I know work full time, and most are involved with their children.

Employers want full time employees, obviously. Part time jobs tend to be for teens. There are some decent careers that you can do part time - nursing for example, you can work one or two days a week. As a lawyer, someday I hope to take my practice down to four days a week and maybe even three before retirement. That is a LONG way off, though. If you work in a middle or higher level position for a company, there is usually no part time option. If there is, it is bottom of the totem pole without benefits.

I know in Europe the work ethic is different. You get sometimes four or more weeks paid vacation a year! People want more free time and don’t want to work as hard. Here, hard work is valued and looked upon with respect. The man killing himself working two full time jobs to put his kids through school. The father spending long hours in the office to pay off his home early. The man with the bad back going to work in a coal mine so that his daughter can keep doing ballet. The old man spending 14 hour days doing manual labor on his land trying to keep the family farm afloat. These are values we have. Sure, there are plenty of takers, loafers, and half-assers. But hard work is a core American value and moat families find that only one member, typically the man, can work that hard.

Yes… A little hard work never killed anyone, generally speaking.

Although I do wonder… The often incredible hard work that American men do, I do think that we may have overdone it a bit. The fact that men die earlier may be an indication of it. What good is it to die early and leave the wife and kids to fend for themselves?

Being older and developing a number of medical issues on what seems an almost weekly basis, I wonder just how much the copious amounts of work related stress I put myself through was really all that practical?

Perhaps the Europeans have it right, but only to a certain degree. It is undeniable, IMHO, that using OPM (Other Peoples Money) a la Socialism is pernicious and will ultimately bankrupt a country.

I do not know what the exact answer is, but methinks men need to learn to induce the world to relax, at least a little bit.