Men's Rights and the Catholic Church

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So after a long drawn out discussion in another thread where we got slightly off topic I thought I would create a separate one for the issue of men’s rights. Some posters thought the idea of men’s rights was “laughable” and that is rather unfortunate. Human (male and female) rights are never “laughable” and such an attitude is exactly the reason why men’s rights movements exist. Men are often referred to as the “ignored sex” and very little attention is given to men’s issues because society thinks we control everything so by default we get what we want. In the past that may have been true, but these days special interest has greatly diluted any such influence.

Some also thought the “manosphere” and men’s rights blogs constitute the entirety of the men’s rights movement. The real men’s rights movement is much more encompassing than the “manosphere.” It is about ensuring everyone in society bears equal responsibility for their actions. It is also about balancing and keeping feminism in check. Obamacare is a direct example of why men’s rights is needed (kaiserhealthnews.org/Features/Insuring-Your-Health/2012/health-law-men-michelle-andrews-082812.aspx). Men are human beings too and just because we don’t bear children that doesn’t make our worth any less. Men’s rights is a moral and social justice issue. It is also one that directly relates to Catholicism because men’s rights is about affirming the equal value of all human beings.

I will post more information in the coming days but some good literature on the subject can be found on the National Organization for Men’s website. The National Coalition for Men is a better site. I think all men should inform themselves about the issues the media refuses to cover. Also, for the women who care about the men in their lives it is good to know the other side of the story so we can build a truly equal society together.
 
I looked at the second website and the first three things I clicked on all contained the f-word. How very manly. :rolleyes:

Just browsing over this page, I think there are alot of issues I can get on board with as well as some that are just stupid and wrong. That’s pretty much the way I feel about most special interest groups that single out a particular group as being victimized.

Honestly, the only injustice I can say is consistantly directed at men is in family court, where men are frequently deprived of the fatherhood of their own children for no reason other than the predjudice of the judge and the convenience of the mother and her new fella. (I’m not trying to discredit the situations where fathers justly loose their parental right because of their own foolishness or selfishness. I am aware that those exist, but the situations I described exist as well.) In these situations, its the children whose rights are being the most violated.
 
I agree with this although being crude or overshooting the mark in a reaction to militant feminism or hating women is wrong too.
Honestly though, the way men are talked about casually these days is appalling. On commercials, by women, etc. to see what I mean just imagine if what was said about men was said about Jews, African Americans, etc. there were days when insulting certain groups was normal and hardly noticed. That is how we treat men today. I believe in history we will look back on this time as a time when men were considered second class citizens. Not in terms of power necessarily but in terms of cultural attitudes. It’s the usual Marxist perception of an elite class oppressing a perpetual victim class.
For myself, I never felt the need to argue with men that as a girl I could be as good as them…if I wanted to do something as well as a man I just did it, didn’t ask their permission! But I don’t want to compete and if there are limits to some of my abilities I accept it like everyone else accepts their limits.

Just pay attention to how men are treated sometimes or portrayed in media, by mainstream culture, etc. imagine it being done towards Jews or African Americans and you will see what I mean. We make castration jokes (our culture does) like it is no big deal. Imagine if there were casual jokes about sterlizing women when they acted annoying sometimes. Seriously think about that. Yet we act like its nothing to say it about men and then wonder how they became emasculated and no longer “strong and manly.”. If I lived in a culture that talked about my sex that way I’d start to feel helpless and probably just act less mature as a desperate gesture since everyone would figure I was a failure anyway.

I remember at a graduation I went to I looked at the 1920s graduation photos of men the same age as the ones on stage. The older generation of 21 year old men could only be described as men. Same size and age but better dressed, had a mature look about them, confident and put together. The ones on stage were making juvenile jokes, looked like slobs and seemed very young.
This is jot because men are so awful but in a large part because of our culture and how it treats men.

Meanwhile I know young men in seminary who seem so strong and wise beyond their years.

As a woman I would like to marry and I wonder often why so many women even in the church consider it some kind of thought crime / sin to respect and even desire to respect your husband and other good men. I’m not a doormat but human beings should respect each other generally and men need respect like women need love. St. Paul talks about this in Ephesians. I often wonder why so many Catholics even get upset or by this passage or think it is that one bible passage that no longer applies. He is saying is for women to respect their husbands, who often need it more than we know, and for men to be more affectionate as women always want more affection, romance etc.

Even saying the man is the head of the wife…as Christians we need to realize he is saying the man is the main servant of the family, as the Lord washed his disciples feet. The husband is not the tyrant or oppressor.

I met women in the church who are so upset about feeling like they don’t have a “voice” or something and they don’t like even a hint that women are limited in ways men aren’t–even though you don’t see man complaining how unfair it is they can’t give birth (usually.) The voice thing is weird because having a voice is such a modern democratic concept that everyone should somehow speak out publicly just because they exist, rather than fulfilling their role with God. There are so many saints win quiet hidden lives who probably saved thousands of souls by their relationship with God. Not all saints have famous writings or “voices” in the public arena. Mary & Jospeh come to mind (nit regarding private revelation but what we know historically from scripture.) Jospeh is the highest saint above the angels after Mary yet utters not a word in scripture.

Maybe I have been given a grace but I realize that I have no problem with respecting a good man who I trust and thinking of men as respectable humans and not dogs or perpetual teenagers.

Speaking of that though, there are men who are perpetual adolescents these days and I believe it is scaur if this attitude towards them that they are useless trained dogs etc. also of course contraception and fornicating culture.

I’m nt a doormat at all and some ppl think I am feisty at times but I’d rather be with a stronger man who can handle it rather than try to become different. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to hate men for being who they are or be angry I’m not exactly like them.

As the French say, vive la difference (between the sexes.)
 
A website or organization is not worth my time if it can’t use respectful language. I will not be clicking.
 
I’m glad to see someone say this. The more I see feminism in action, the more it seems to me that they are really just interested in their own cause without any concern for men. They assume that since men have sat on top for so long, they can punch and kick and undermine as much as they want and men will still be fine.

Well, I think in the wake of feminism we have a culture with unfair thoughts about men. It’s very similar to how our culture has unfair thoughts about whites because blacks were formerly treated unfairly. We never really get things right do we, we just fall off of one end of the horse and then the other, never striking a balance.

In a recent blog post by Karl Keating, he commented on how progressivism isn’t founded on real principles, and therefore can only react to situations as they come. The more I think about it, the more I see its truth and how it has resulted in a lot of over-compensation in our society.

Why don’t we just have humanism? Oh yeah, that’s taken :rolleyes:

Real humanism, of course, is Catholicism. 🙂
 
The problem, as I see it, is that society has reduced most people to objects. We have the male sex and the female sex. Not the male gender and the female gender. And we make assumptions about each. If a male is kind, gentle, respectful,etc. society tends to view him as “weak”. Society doesn’t realize that the greatest strength, the greatest power lies in gentleness and kindness. Those are virtues which slip past defenses and change lives.

Women who are smart and strong are labled “feminists” when it is precisely those qualities that enable women to stay home and raise children (when they can) while society lables them as “lazy and too stupid to do anything else”.

It is because we are so used to being seen as objects that we are concerned with our “rights”. Instead, we, all of us, need to change our thinking. We need to see everyone else (and ourselves) as created in the image and likeness of God. As unique, not just exteriorly, but interiorly as well. We need to began to view everyone through the lens of the dignity of mankind, including ourselves. When we do that, we won’t need to be concerned with our “rights”. Our boys will grow into men, not remain adolescents, our women will fulfill the roles God calls them to without worrying about what God has not called them to do. And we won’t be like little kids forever boasting, “my gender is better than your gender!”
Kris
 
Let us also not forget what** Feminism** has done to our Holy Mother Church! The rabid mentality of such Feminist groups like NOW that view children as a ‘sexually transmitted disease’ to be excised a la abortion, are going to have lot to answer for on the Judgement Day.
 
runningdude said:
A website or organization is not worth my time if it can’t use respectful language. I will not be clicking.
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Oh yes? If we are to evangelize the world, as our Holy Church asks of the laity, then we must know what is going on in the World- yes? If one is sooooo offended by such rough terms then how is one going to minister to the world? There is far, far worse out there than such relative trivialities methinks.

No. We must meet them where they are. We do not have to become them,but we must be knowlegeble, in order to engage the world
 
Nimzovik said:
Oh yes? If we are to evangelize the world, as our Holy Church asks of the laity, then we must know what is going on in the World- yes? If one is sooooo offended by such rough terms then how is one going to minister to the world?
Click to expand...
It might be helpful to think of CAF as a part of that evangelization; a forum accessed by members of varying ages.
Do we want to post as authoritative or as acceptable to Catholics, links to sites which set poor examples of respectful discourse? What sort of evangelization do we wish to promote?
Does visiting such websites encourage others to see them as respected sources?
Perhaps there are some Catholic groups which are providing materials written in a more charitable manner?
Perhaps the O.P. might request that the moderators edit the first post to eliminate the link.
I look forward to new links which offer examples of respectful discourse.
May God bless all men and women and children who visit CAF. Amen.
 
I apologize for not screening the links better. The best literature is actually in print and I at least encourage you to check out Amazon to see the books. Many are written by qualified people.

The Myth of Male Power
Women Can’t Hear What Men Don’t Say: Destroying Myths, Creating Love
The Manipulated Man
The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men
Why Men Earn More: The Startling Truth Behind the Pay Gap – and What Women Can Do About It
The War Against Men

I think the best are Christina Hoff Sommers “The War Against Boys” and Warren Farrell’s “The Myth of Male Power.” Both have their Ph.D in their respective fields. Dr. Farrell was also a former board member for the National Organization for Women. They both use actual references and data to support their claims. Dr. Sommers is particularly revealing and calls out a lot of foul play on the part of the American Associate for University Women (AAUW). That group squashed their own data because it didn’t support their media narrative of the disadvantaged girl. It’s shocking they weren’t prosecuted but of coarse feminism wouldn’t allow that.
 
jeannetherese said:
It might be helpful to think of CAF as a part of that evangelization; a forum accessed by members of varying ages.
Do we want to post as authoritative or as acceptable to Catholics, links to sites which set poor examples of respectful discourse? What sort of evangelization do we wish to promote?
Does visiting such websites encourage others to see them as respected sources?
Perhaps there are some Catholic groups which are providing materials written in a more charitable manner?
Perhaps the O.P. might request that the moderators edit the first post to eliminate the link.
I look forward to new links which offer examples of respectful discourse.
May God bless all men and women and children who visit CAF. Amen.
Click to expand...
 
I agree that men’s rights tend to be diminished or overlooked and, personally, I am not a fan of feminism because I feel is too radical and that all that it wants is to attack the church, family, men and is full of lies. However, you have to consider a couple of things: most men tend to be oppressed by other men i.e. even in family court where men tend to have the short end of the stick, what is the sex of most Judges deciding on these cases? men, what was the sex of all Justices who decided Roe v. Wade? all men, what is the sex of most cops who see a man abused by his wife and dismiss the case? men again! and if you start studying most of the issues men deal with in the chain of power, up there is a man oppressing men, so I think that Men’s rights movement sometimes misses this point and focus on the wrong side. Instead of fighting with obstinated radical feminists I think Men’s rights movement would be focusing more on other men like Judges, bosses, cops etc.

Second, particularly in family court, while it is absolutely true that men do have the short end of the stick in family court, the tendency of the Judges to favor women comes from the fact that by far the majority of cases that most Judges deal with are deadbeat dads so what happens after a day when a Judge has to hear lies and excuses from 150 men (whose lies are obvious and tend to give the most idiotic excuses to Judges) and gets to the one who is actually telling the truth? The Judge is already predisposed against that man, angry and won’t listen because he had to spent the whole morning listening to 150 idiots. Obviously it is very unfortunate but the reality is that when a high number of individuals tend to do certain wrongs, their actions tend to affect the ones who are not doing wrong.

And finally, I find all this division between feminism and men’s right silly and pure nonsense. Our society is composed by both men and women and what affects one group is going to affect the other. The problems of one group do affect the other and dividing people in group, call it men v women, black v white, or whatever, only brings more problems and creates a society where people is uncapable of getting along with other. Only and until people understand that we are all human beings who deal with similar problems and that all human beings need to be respected and have a right to have help when dealing with issues regardless of sex or race is when solutions to these problems will be found.
 
erine said:
I agree with this although being crude or overshooting the mark in a reaction to militant feminism or hating women is wrong too.
Honestly though, the way men are talked about casually these days is appalling. On commercials, by women, etc. to see what I mean just imagine if what was said about men was said about Jews, African Americans, etc. there were days when insulting certain groups was normal and hardly noticed. That is how we treat men today. I believe in history we will look back on this time as a time when men were considered second class citizens. Not in terms of power necessarily but in terms of cultural attitudes. It’s the usual Marxist perception of an elite class oppressing a perpetual victim class.
For myself, I never felt the need to argue with men that as a girl I could be as good as them…if I wanted to do something as well as a man I just did it, didn’t ask their permission! But I don’t want to compete and if there are limits to some of my abilities I accept it like everyone else accepts their limits.

Just pay attention to how men are treated sometimes or portrayed in media, by mainstream culture, etc. imagine it being done towards Jews or African Americans and you will see what I mean. We make castration jokes (our culture does) like it is no big deal. Imagine if there were casual jokes about sterlizing women when they acted annoying sometimes. Seriously think about that. Yet we act like its nothing to say it about men and then wonder how they became emasculated and no longer “strong and manly.”. If I lived in a culture that talked about my sex that way I’d start to feel helpless and probably just act less mature as a desperate gesture since everyone would figure I was a failure anyway.

I remember at a graduation I went to I looked at the 1920s graduation photos of men the same age as the ones on stage. The older generation of 21 year old men could only be described as men. Same size and age but better dressed, had a mature look about them, confident and put together. The ones on stage were making juvenile jokes, looked like slobs and seemed very young.
This is jot because men are so awful but in a large part because of our culture and how it treats men.

Meanwhile I know young men in seminary who seem so strong and wise beyond their years.

As a woman I would like to marry and I wonder often why so many women even in the church consider it some kind of thought crime / sin to respect and even desire to respect your husband and other good men. I’m not a doormat but human beings should respect each other generally and men need respect like women need love. St. Paul talks about this in Ephesians. I often wonder why so many Catholics even get upset or by this passage or think it is that one bible passage that no longer applies. He is saying is for women to respect their husbands, who often need it more than we know, and for men to be more affectionate as women always want more affection, romance etc.

Even saying the man is the head of the wife…as Christians we need to realize he is saying the man is the main servant of the family, as the Lord washed his disciples feet. The husband is not the tyrant or oppressor.

I met women in the church who are so upset about feeling like they don’t have a “voice” or something and they don’t like even a hint that women are limited in ways men aren’t–even though you don’t see man complaining how unfair it is they can’t give birth (usually.) The voice thing is weird because having a voice is such a modern democratic concept that everyone should somehow speak out publicly just because they exist, rather than fulfilling their role with God. There are so many saints win quiet hidden lives who probably saved thousands of souls by their relationship with God. Not all saints have famous writings or “voices” in the public arena. Mary & Jospeh come to mind (nit regarding private revelation but what we know historically from scripture.) Jospeh is the highest saint above the angels after Mary yet utters not a word in scripture.

Maybe I have been given a grace but I realize that I have no problem with respecting a good man who I trust and thinking of men as respectable humans and not dogs or perpetual teenagers.

Speaking of that though, there are men who are perpetual adolescents these days and I believe it is scaur if this attitude towards them that they are useless trained dogs etc. also of course contraception and fornicating culture.

I’m nt a doormat at all and some ppl think I am feisty at times but I’d rather be with a stronger man who can handle it rather than try to become different. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to hate men for being who they are or be angry I’m not exactly like them.

As the French say, vive la difference (between the sexes.)
Click to expand...
The best men that I know, whether they belong to my generation, my father’s or grandfather’s, are all blessed with the ability to be serious and mature when called for combined with a very healthy dose of sometimes juvenile humour at other times.

For that matter the same goes for the best women I know.

I think without the latter you end up with both a soul and a body that are old before their time.
 
marymary1975 said:
I agree that men’s rights tend to be diminished or overlooked and, personally, I am not a fan of feminism because I feel is too radical and that all that it wants is to attack the church, family, men and is full of lies. However, you have to consider a couple of things: most men tend to be oppressed by other men i.e. even in family court where men tend to have the short end of the stick, what is the sex of most Judges deciding on these cases? men, what was the sex of all Justices who decided Roe v. Wade? all men, what is the sex of most cops who see a man abused by his wife and dismiss the case? men again! and if you start studying most of the issues men deal with in the chain of power, up there is a man oppressing men, so I think that Men’s rights movement sometimes misses this point and focus on the wrong side. Instead of fighting with obstinated radical feminists I think Men’s rights movement would be focusing more on other men like Judges, bosses, cops etc.

Second, particularly in family court, while it is absolutely true that men do have the short end of the stick in family court, the tendency of the Judges to favor women comes from the fact that by far the majority of cases that most Judges deal with are deadbeat dads so what happens after a day when a Judge has to hear lies and excuses from 150 men (whose lies are obvious and tend to give the most idiotic excuses to Judges) and gets to the one who is actually telling the truth? The Judge is already predisposed against that man, angry and won’t listen because he had to spent the whole morning listening to 150 idiots. Obviously it is very unfortunate but the reality is that when a high number of individuals tend to do certain wrongs, their actions tend to affect the ones who are not doing wrong.

And finally, I find all this division between feminism and men’s right silly and pure nonsense. Our society is composed by both men and women and what affects one group is going to affect the other. The problems of one group do affect the other and dividing people in group, call it men v women, black v white, or whatever, only brings more problems and creates a society where people is uncapable of getting along with other. Only and until people understand that we are all human beings who deal with similar problems and that all human beings need to be respected and have a right to have help when dealing with issues regardless of sex or race is when solutions to these problems will be found.
Click to expand...
Agreed but many of the men you talk about have been conditioned a certain way and trained to do what they do. Cops will dismiss a man abused by his wife because feminism has sold the narrative that women NEVER abuse men. Also, not all forms of abuse are physical. Some are emotional. I can’t call up the local police station and say my wife is emotionally abusing me and that is why I am depressed. Also, good luck explaining to a cop that you were trying to defend yourself while being pummeled with kitchenware by your wife.

I agree we need to focus on men as well as women. Here is why “Men Who Needs Them.” As you can see there are some men who are so self-loathing that they lash out like some feminist tool against other men. Typically your very liberal white male fits the bill because if he wants to get married that is the type of women he has to work with.
 
Seen a few of these speakers on youtube recently as it helps me to balance feminism ideas from books etc and see a counter argument. I like to keep tab on all feminist from older one like Bretty Freidan, Germain Greer(Gosh what ever happened to her) to Naomi Wolfe to the youngest generation Rebecca Watson, Jen McCreight and the list go on and on…

They offer a lot of names of new feminists mainly from the Freethought blogs which is an atheist forum I believe.
originally posted by jeannetherese
t might be helpful to think of CAF as a part of that evangelization; a forum accessed by members of varying ages
Click to expand...
.

These sites are not for the young
originally posted by runningdude
A website or organization is not worth my time if it can’t use respectful language. I will not be clicking.
Click to expand...
They would consider that an elitist attitude. Most are under age 40 and their language reflects the culture they have been raised in.😦 I have never heard one say the Lord’s name in vain.
 
Yes, I agree but many men’s activist like to focus too much on feminist obstinated women who don’t listen and are totally irrational. I think it would be much more helpful to educate cops, Judges, etc. over the situation, teach them that bad people exist regardless of sex and try to work on solutions to all domestic problems instead of fighting with irrational people.
 
marymary1975 said:
Yes, I agree but many men’s activist like to focus too much on feminist obstinated women who don’t listen and are totally irrational. I think it would be much more helpful to educate cops, Judges, etc. over the situation, teach them that bad people exist regardless of sex and try to work on solutions to all domestic problems instead of fighting with irrational people.
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Agreed but feminists won’t allow it. We have to expose their hypocrisy before we even get a seat at the table to train government officials. The standards are different for mens rights.
 
And by the way, it is beyond my understanding how any man can date or be married to any of those women.
 
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