Men's Rights and the Catholic Church

[Litcrit]

Working a 50 hour week is in no way a reason not to spend time with your kids. Most dads I know work full time, and most are involved with their children.

Employers want full time employees, obviously. Part time jobs tend to be for teens. There are some decent careers that you can do part time - nursing for example, you can work one or two days a week. As a lawyer, someday I hope to take my practice down to four days a week and maybe even three before retirement. That is a LONG way off, though. If you work in a middle or higher level position for a company, there is usually no part time option. If there is, it is bottom of the totem pole without benefits.

I know in Europe the work ethic is different. You get sometimes four or more weeks paid vacation a year! People want more free time and don’t want to work as hard. Here, hard work is valued and looked upon with respect. The man killing himself working two full time jobs to put his kids through school. The father spending long hours in the office to pay off his home early. The man with the bad back going to work in a coal mine so that his daughter can keep doing ballet. The old man spending 14 hour days doing manual labor on his land trying to keep the family farm afloat. These are values we have. Sure, there are plenty of takers, loafers, and half-assers. But hard work is a core American value and moat families find that only one member, typically the man, can work that hard.

To me, it seems your work ethic is the consequence of living in a cruel and unjust system. If people have to nearly kill themselves working so they could afford normal things, then either their work isn’t valued or their tax money isn’t used in a way that benefits them, or both.

 

[Litcrit]

Perhaps the Europeans have it right, but only to a certain degree. It is undeniable, IMHO, that using OPM (Other Peoples Money) a la Socialism is pernicious and will ultimately bankrupt a country.

It’s all *our *money, we just keep redistributing it as we see fit.

For instance, there’s an initiative now in my country, with a petition being signed by many people, to award salaries to parents who stay with their special-needs children. People in general don’t mind their tax money being spent on this, just like they don’t mind it being spent on education, health, and, yes, even subsidized ballet and music schools so no one has to work 15 hours a day in a mine so his daughter can do ballet. We see it as important and worthwhile to support *all *the children, regardless of what their parents do.

Are your SAHM wives and children using other people’s money? No. SAHMs are doing valuable work and children will grow to do valuable work.

European countries are like big families, I guess that’s the only way I can try to illustrate *our *ethic.

 

[gam197]

I think we agreed that the second wave of feminism is dying. I think, you never know.

Now the issue is, do the third wave of feminists think that the second wave succeeded in what they hope to accomplish or do they see them as failures? I think it is mixed. They want nothing to do with the second wave tactics -drama.

Yet the third wave seems to be going along the same path — egalitarian.

originally posted by FoxFanForty
We can’t possibly be talking about education “damaging” women. That is a very backward thought, one that was used for a long time to k
eep women out of academia and stuck in the home, under men’s authority. I have daughters. I expect them to go to college. I’ll be damned if they will be kept down so that a man has ultimate financial control over them. You never know when that man will up and leave, die or become disabled. My girls need to know that if they have to or want to, they can get good work. And Who wants an uneducated wife? Sheesh. My wife stays home for now, because our kids are young. She has a masters’ degree. I know she could take care of business when and if she had to. And hey - we can talk about real adult stuff as peers! What a concept!

Those dumb girls shouldn’t even open their mouths unless they have a certificate.

Men will up and leave, die or become disabled. Normally they die a few years before females but usually we are left with the loot. But they are bums.

This is not about education.

Aren’t we as parents to education our children first in faith and morals?

Feminists don’t seem to address how we do all this. I notice no one replied when I mention contraception and limiting family.
.

 

[FoxFanForty]

Yes… A little hard work never killed anyone, generally speaking.

Although I do wonder… The often incredible hard work that American men do, I do think that we may have overdone it a bit. The fact that men die earlier may be an indication of it. What good is it to die early and leave the wife and kids to fend for themselves?

Being older and developing a number of medical issues on what seems an almost weekly basis, I wonder just how much the copious amounts of work related stress I put myself through was really all that practical?

Perhaps the Europeans have it right, but only to a certain degree. It is undeniable, IMHO, that using OPM (Other Peoples Money) a la Socialism is pernicious and will ultimately bankrupt a country.

I do not know what the exact answer is, but methinks men need to learn to induce the world to relax, at least a little bit.

I hope I die before my wife. She’s better equipped to carry on without me than I am without her. There are lots of reasons men live a little shorter lives. Many of them our own fault - we tend to wait too long to see a doctor or go to the emergency room - men don’t routinely get their bloodwork done or their psa checked like women get their mammograms! Plus, our diets tend to be worse, we drink and smoke more on average and there are biological reasons too.

 

[FoxFanForty]

To me, it seems your work ethic is the consequence of living in a cruel and unjust system. If people have to nearly kill themselves working so they could afford normal things, then either their work isn’t valued or their tax money isn’t used in a way that benefits them, or both.

I don’t see it that way. If my family is not living the kind of lifestyle we want, that’s my problem and my fault. I’m not nearly killing myself and most people don’t have to. 50 hours a week is not bad at all. I’d rather keep my tax money and do with it what I think best rather than have my income go into a big pot for the government to hand out to others. At the end of my life, I want to die knowing I worked hard for my wife and kids and put away enough for them to have something when I’m gone.

 

[Nimzovik]

Here is a fun link: youtube.com/watch?v=05ro6fcj6Ek

 

[silentfactor80]

It seems we have been reopened here. Perhaps we should get back on track as to how men’s rights fall within the Church’s sphere of influence and what the Church can do to raise awareness of these issues.

 

[silentfactor80]

AlTheCollegeGal knows the futility of debating an individual who is absolutely set in his or her ways.

I understand your sentiment but running for the hills is not going foster progress. I think we’ve all raised serious issues here and each side thinks their issues take precedence. I disagree with that notion and think the issues each faces are intertwined.

AlTheCollegeGal raised an important issue to me over PM. She said she felt that strange men judge her appearance and ask her inappropriate questions often. I disagree that feminism is the answer to this problem but I am sure there are other ways that we can handle this. Consequently, I am very offended when people using the “testosterone argument” when explaining away some men’s behavior. Much research has shown there is a weak link between aggressive behavior and testosterone (ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=192882). A study was done (will post a link later) where some women were given testosterone but not told. The rest were given a placebo and told it was testosterone. The ones who thought they had testosterone but didn’t were more aggressive in a game of cards. I think it goes to show that nurture is trumping nature. Correlation does not equal causation. This also means, I think, that we need to rethink our stereotypes and weigh people by their merit, not their hormones. All men clearly have testosterone but not all are aggressive / violent.

 

[Nimzovik]

Ah yes. The men are evil due to testosterone lie that has been perpetrated in our Society by Feminists.

Feminist Germaine Greer:“I think that testosterone is a rare poison.”

and:

"Definitions… MAN: An obsolete life form, an ordinary creature who needs to be watched, a contradictory baby-man; MISANDRY: A refusal to suppress the evidence of one’s experience with men, A woman’s defense against fear and pain, An affirmation of the cathartic effects of justifiable anger; STRANGERS: Unknowns who, if male, are not to be trusted. Knowns are not to be trusted either; TESTOSTERONE POISONING: … Until now it has been thought that the level of testosterone in men is normal simply because they have it. But if you consider how abnormal their behavior is, then you are led to the hypothesis that almost all men are suffering from "testosterone poisoning. Source - A Feminist Dictionary, ed. Kramarae and Treichler, Pandora Press, 1985

Which of course means: 'All men are rapists, and that is all they are’ Source - Marylin French, People, February 20th, 1983

and no doubt accounts for Men’s behavior:

“In everything men make, they hollow out a central place for death, let its rancid smell contaminate every dimension of whatever still survives. Men especially love murder. In art they celebrate it, and in life they commit it. They embrace murder as if life without it would be devoid of passion, meaning, and action, as if murder were solace, stilling their sobs as they mourn the emptiness and alienation of their lives.” Source - Andrea Dworkin, “Letters from a War Zone”, pg 214

Let Feminism have the figurative black eye it so richly deserves.

However let us indeed get back to how Feminism affected the Catholic Church. Aside from ‘Shaming Tactics’ tactics of 50 % of the Church’s membership, there is also the concept of Female Priests, which has been repudiated, The references to the ‘anti - female patriarchy’ of the church, Abortion advocacy which is diametrically opposed to church dogma,the IMHO, emasculating spin on the writings of St. Paul, just to name a few.

Just how many females will correspondingly not know Our Lord due to the raving rants of the Feminists?

Here is a well reasoned article: catholiceducation.org/articles/feminism/fe0025.html

 

[gam197]

From your article which is very long , there are about 4 or more paragraph on the early feminists movement which are very interesting. I saw a video at my library on the wonder of Elizabeth Cady Stanton and they a similar 5 minute(lovingly) on her belief system…Cringe… This article tells it all.

1848, at Seneca Falls, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and a group of colleagues assembled to defend women’s right

Some years later, in The Woman’s Bible, Stanton launched an open challenge to religious authority in the name of women’s emancipation and self-determination.

She especially deplored the position of Mary, whom she described as having belonged to the Jewish aristocracy. With this distinguished ancestry, Mary should have been granted a husband of her own rank rather than a humble craftsman. But then Stanton could not understand why Mary had to be human at all. “If a Heavenly Father was necessary, why not a Heavenly Mother? If an earthly Mother was admirable, why not an earthly Father?” Above all, she objected to the idea that Mary’s motherhood of Jesus honored women as a sex. In her view, “a wise and virtuous son is more indebted to his mother than she is to him, and is honored only by reflecting her superior characteristics.” These and similar complaints amply prepare Stanton’s reader for her concluding observation that "Biblical mysteries and inconsistencies are a great strain on the credulity of the ordinary mind."7

All men did not have the right to vote.

 

[Nimzovik]

:bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes: Feminists detracting our Blessed Mother!

Ok. Need we say more in regard to Feminists? Who here can not see the machinations of the evil one at the roots of Feminism? Seriously!

Why any Catholic woman, once informed would willingly, publicly and proudly where the label of Feminist is way beyond me. The Feminist brand is so inured in the ranting rage of evil, as evidenced by Abortion, the view that life is a sexually transmitted disease that needs to be excised like a tumor, Misandry, the oft promotion of Lesbiansism, the attacks on our very Church, etc. etc. etc,

For Catholic women to wear the label of Feminist only serves to blur the lines and confuse the message of Our Lord. Whatever good there might have been found in Feminism** can indeed be found in Catholicism.** Whatever good we do should be done in the name of Catholicism.

Evil never comes to one and states “Hello. I am Evil. You do not mind if I kill you, do you?” No. evil always comes disguised as sons of light and reason. Evil says "Hi! I am your best friend! Look over there and see what “they" are doing to you!” Then evil pulls out the knife while one’s attention is diverted and slips in the knife. It is only when evil feels itself to be supremely confident of victory does it actually reveal itself publicly.

Let us be wary of the old tried and true tactics of evil. That of divide and conquer. That of pitting women against men.

For in truth the ‘Mouth of Sauron’ has found a vehicle in the Feminist movement.

I. for one, will not dance to that tune.

Yes all men did not have the right to vote. Voting was often dictated by wealth and property ownership.

 

[Nimzovik]

As for what the Church can do to facilitate Men’s role/identity I noticed one link today on CAF referencing this: gowestcatholicmen.com/conference2.html

and another here: The Catholic Men’s Fellowship of Pittsburgh and The King’s Men of Philadelphia are sponsoring a retreat for men called “Into the Wild” at Raccoon Creek State Park from June 6 - 9, 2013. This experiential weekend features fishing, orienteering, outdoor cooking, archery, and faith presented in a masculine modality. No experience is necessary and space is limited. “Into the Wild” is excellent for single or married men as well as fathers and sons. More information at www.intothewildweekend.com

This is encouraging.

 

[Litcrit]

Consequently, I am very offended when people using the “testosterone argument” when explaining away some men’s behavior. Much research has shown there is a weak link between aggressive behavior and testosterone (ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=192882). A study was done (will post a link later) where some women were given testosterone but not told. The rest were given a placebo and told it was testosterone. The ones who thought they had testosterone but didn’t were more aggressive in a game of cards. I think it goes to show that nurture is trumping nature. Correlation does not equal causation. This also means, I think, that we need to rethink our stereotypes and weigh people by their merit, not their hormones. All men clearly have testosterone but not all are aggressive / violent.

I am similarly offended when women’s opinions, behaviors, and requests are discounted because they are “hormonal” and thus irrational.

Often, laboring women’s views and requests and questions are disregarded because they are “hormonal”. This happened to me the first time I was giving birth. I was perfectly rational and coherent, yet I was treated as an irrational animal because I was a woman in labor.

We need more respect for humans as humans with minds and bodies and autonomy over them, male or female.

And we need to deconstruct the narrow-minded quasi-biological stereotypes. No, not all men are aggressive and ambitious just because they happen to secrete more testosterone on average. No, not all women are more nurturing and naturally better suited for 24h/day parenthood just because they happen to secrete more estrogen on average.

And they don’t have to be in order to be called “real” men and women.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Odd, but I find that men are often drawn to girl’s suffering.

I have seen similar shows and some are horrible.Can’t say anything more about that than they are horrific. I am glad they have these shows so human rights groups can get in there. I’ve also seen a show where a mom and day worked their fingers to the bone in the city while the grandmother took care of their two children in rural China trying to advance their children in education. The 17 year old daughter rebelled , dropped out of school and went to work at a bar. Made you sick after all these two parents had been through.

Not all for, but for many, abortion is their solution. They are now empowered to leave and don’t want to go back.

I think if you saw the show you would have had similar feelings I did. That show has remained with me in my mind troubling my conscience. It’s had an affect on me similar to the movie The Stoning of Soraya M. youtube.com/watch?v=5Nm8dkD30Gg

I can’t stomach either. And these things make you ashamed of being a man and sharing the same sex.

But then there are–for reasons I don’t quite understand–females helping men burden, oppress, and destroy these young girls.

I think Hillary Clinton is on to something when she says there are men that see and treat girls and women as no more than things, property, non-humans only existing for the purpose of their enjoyment and service. That girls and women are viewed the same way the white ruling class in the U.S. antebellum South viewed black slaves and black people.

But you should see what this Cambodian woman has done with the girls she has helped rescue. It is amazing. These girls develop dignity, courtesy, and assertiveness. I mean you would have to see it with your own eyes–the show–to understand just the incredible amount of change that takes place with these girls. And I’m sure I don’t fully understand given I’ve never seen and met them personally at their compounds.

Even children can humble us by their own examples, fortitude, and extraordinary things they overcome. It’s unfortunate Christopher Dorner could not have seen or met these young girls and the woman who has made it her life mission to rescue and save as many of these girls as she can. That young woman doesn’t know her real name, how old she is, where she was born, or who her parents are. She watched her best friend be murdered in a brothel by their female madam. She endured frequent beatings herself till one day she was able to escape (they will keep girls locked up in small rooms with pad locks on the outside of the door).

This is not about me being a man. This is about me being a human. But evidently it has not burdened and hurt me enough that I have decided to give up everything and go to Cambodia to rescue girls. Which I know must be a great fault in me.

There are some white men from the U.S. that have given up well paying white collar careers to help young girls (and boys) in the developing worlds in one form or another. You saw some of them on the show.

**Bolding Mine: **

Oh yes?

"…To me all that stuff is superficial. And any woman raised Christian means little to nothing to me as she’s probably the spawn of Satan."

This is the extent of your enlightened path is it?

Some of that was me mixing in too much of my emotions in a response. But part of it stemmed from unemotional rationalism.

The unemotional and rational part is that a woman’s label and religion and schools she went to means little about what she desires and or places importance in. One can say the same with men. Some people make note that Adolf Hitler was raised Catholic and Ghandi was reared Hindu.

I’ve found Catholic females as superficial as atheist females. There is little to no difference between any of them. Speaking in general terms. I’m aware some Catholic girls and women go on to live holy lives and become saints. I pray to two of them. Neither are from the 20th Century or were American or even spoke English. And I’m sure there are individual American Catholic girls become women that are essentially good people become good wives and mothers.

The other purely rational thing is that the more narrow a person makes their pool for a mate the smaller the number they can draw from. It would be like limiting one’s self to only women in Milwaukee rather than the whole United States.

I learned the folly of limiting myself to classifications like Black; Catholic; Christian; American. There are those that restricting themselves to one or more of those classification works phenomenally well. There are for example, plenty of Black-American male womanizers that only date and have sex and eventually marry black women. They may carry on extra-marital affairs with other black women. All involved may more or less have satisfaction in the situation.

There are some restriction I make but they today, really have nothing to do with religion and I personally find certain physical types of East Indian women and Latinas attractive. The same can be said for certain nationalities of European women like certain physical types of English speaking Russian women with accents.

My path is “enlightened” for me. That does not mean it is the appropriate path for your or another person.

 

[Nimzovik]

I am similarly offended when women’s opinions, behaviors, and requests are discounted because they are “hormonal” and thus irrational.

Often, laboring women’s views and requests and questions are disregarded because they are “hormonal”. This happened to me the first time I was giving birth. I was perfectly rational and coherent, yet I was treated as an irrational animal because I was a woman in labor.

We need more respect for humans as humans with minds and bodies and autonomy over them, male or female.

And we need to deconstruct the narrow-minded quasi-biological stereotypes. No, not all men are aggressive and ambitious just because they happen to secrete more testosterone on average. No, not all women are more nurturing and naturally better suited for 24h/day parenthood just because they happen to secrete more estrogen on average.

And they don’t have to be in order to be called “real” men and women.

Yes. You indeed have a point here.

 

[Nimzovik]

TimeEntrance -

You do indeed offer much truth in your post.

The way women are treated in miscellaneous parts of the globe is horrific. I too would like to have the time, talent and treasure to rectify the evils that you highlight. Deep sigh…

I would caution you against generalizations however.

Also I have a tendency to wince when statements are offered involving what I would call ‘Corporate Guilt.’ Yes, men have been involved in stoning women. However I personally do not feel ashamed as a man because men elsewhere, under a different Religious Structure, advocate stoning women for whatever reason. Evil is what it is. Let us call it* that*. Evil. To do otherwise is to divert from the prime cause of the crime.

Evil is what I strive against, as a* man* and as a Catholic.

As for “… I pray to two of them. Neither are from the 20th Century or were American or even spoke English.” May I introduce to you Mother Teresa of Calcutta?

See here: vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20031019_madre-teresa_en.html

 

[TimeEntrance]

This is not about education.

Aren’t we as parents to education our children first in faith and morals?

Education is good. The life of the mind is good. I think the life of the mind is a good even absent monetary motivations and monetary rewards. In other words I don’t think law degree = good and a fine arts degree = bad.

The educated are always at risk of being snobs too. This means I’m at risk for this too. The challenge is balancing an appreciation and admiration for degrees earned with not turning into a snob about it or placing more value on degrees than they are worth.

My saint… St. Bernadette was not exactly a book worm or part of high society. Her values would probably run counter to American materialism as well.

I have to admit I’m pretty materialistic in that I have a goal to obtain luxury items and real estate one day.

The Hyundai Equus 2014 is always a pictorial motivation for me to financially and materially achieve more. So are a number of luxury homes and condos in Milwaukee.

But this is not something that would have motivated St. Bernadette. She is said to have seen the Virgin Mary whereas I have never seen her in apparition. I’ve felt her motherly presence once in her chapel in Holy Hill. That’s out of a number of times I’ve visited Holy Hill in Wisconsin over the years. holyhill.com/

The once was nice though. Because otherwise I might have thought–or be thinking–she never thought or cared about me.

But no matter what I accomplish in my future, St. Bernadette is ahead of me in place of honor and prestige. So is St. Little Arab. Maybe that might help to keep some humility in me if I ever ascend figurative thrones on earth?

The Hyundai Equus 2014 by the way… A functional work of art.

Interior glimpse: hyundai-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/equus-interior-hyundai.jpg

Luxury condo in Milwaukee:

1. youtube.com/watch?v=WdZsTJvxBHA
2. youtube.com/watch?v=0BBN-yx-VHw

 

[TimeEntrance]

I think if you saw the show you would have had similar feelings I did. That show has remained with me in my mind troubling my conscience. It’s had an affect on me similar to the movie The Stoning of Soraya M. youtube.com/watch?v=5Nm8dkD30Gg

I can’t stomach either. And these things make you ashamed of being a man and sharing the same sex.

But then there are–for reasons I don’t quite understand–females helping men burden, oppress, and destroy these young girls.

I think Hillary Clinton is on to something when she says there are men that see and treat girls and women as no more than things, property, non-humans only existing for the purpose of their enjoyment and service. That girls and women are viewed the same way the white ruling class in the U.S. antebellum South viewed black slaves and black people.

But you should see what this Cambodian woman has done with the girls she has helped rescue. It is amazing. These girls develop dignity, courtesy, and assertiveness. I mean you would have to see it with your own eyes–the show–to understand just the incredible amount of change that takes place with these girls. And I’m sure I don’t fully understand given I’ve never seen and met them personally at their compounds.

Even children can humble us by their own examples, fortitude, and extraordinary things they overcome. It’s unfortunate Christopher Dorner could not have seen or met these young girls and the woman who has made it her life mission to rescue and save as many of these girls as she can. That young woman doesn’t know her real name, how old she is, where she was born, or who her parents are. She watched her best friend be murdered in a brothel by their female madam. She endured frequent beatings herself till one day she was able to escape (they will keep girls locked up in small rooms with pad locks on the outside of the door).

This is not about me being a man. This is about me being a human. But evidently it has not burdened and hurt me enough that I have decided to give up everything and go to Cambodia to rescue girls. Which I know must be a great fault in me.

There are some white men from the U.S. that have given up well paying white collar careers to help young girls (and boys) in the developing worlds in one form or another. You saw some of them on the show.

Some of that was me mixing in too much of my emotions in a response. But part of it stemmed from unemotional rationalism.

The unemotional and rational part is that a woman’s label and religion and schools she went to means little about what she desires and or places importance in. One can say the same with men. Some people make note that Adolf Hitler was raised Catholic and Ghandi was reared Hindu.

I’ve found Catholic females as superficial as atheist females. There is little to no difference between any of them. Speaking in general terms. I’m aware some Catholic girls and women go on to live holy lives and become saints. I pray to two of them. Neither are from the 20th Century or were American or even spoke English. And I’m sure there are individual American Catholic girls become women that are essentially good people become good wives and mothers.

The other purely rational thing is that the more narrow a person makes their pool for a mate the smaller the number they can draw from. It would be like limiting one’s self to only women in Milwaukee rather than the whole United States.

I learned the folly of limiting myself to classifications like Black; Catholic; Christian; American. There are those that restricting themselves to one or more of those classification works phenomenally well. There are for example, plenty of Black-American male womanizers that only date and have sex and eventually marry black women. They may carry on extra-marital affairs with other black women. All involved may more or less have satisfaction in the situation.

There are some restriction I make but they today, really have nothing to do with religion and I personally find certain physical types of East Indian women and Latinas attractive. The same can be said for certain nationalities of European women like certain physical types of English speaking Russian women with accents.

My path is “enlightened” for me. That does not mean it is the appropriate path for you or another person.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Eh… meant to edit a word in post #174 and accidentally, not paying close enough attention, ended up posting #178. But I can’t delete it.

Number #178 should be deleted though.

 

[Nimzovik]

Great Bernadette link. Also Wisconsin is one of my favorite states to visit. However Perhaps we should return to the topic as we might get locked down again!