Men's Rights and the Catholic Church

[TimeEntrance]

Great Bernadette link. Also Wisconsin is one of my favorite states to visit. However Perhaps we should return to the topic as we might get locked down again!

Cool. But let me end with giving you and gam the name of that Cambodian woman and a link to her foundation. Otherwise I’ll feel like I’m doing an injustice. I don’t really have heroes but I’m starting to feel this woman Somaly Mam may be my one hero in life today. Her work is important, so, maybe some on this site or browsing this thread may want to donate or reach out to her foundation.

The documentary (I didn’t see all of it) was called Half a Sky that I watched on MPTV (Milwaukee Public Television).

Her foundation: somaly.org/

Some interviews with her:

youtube.com/watch?v=lvO1deptzbg

youtube.com/watch?v=pEx75iqUAho

 

[Nimzovik]

Ok.

 

[silentfactor80]

I am similarly offended when women’s opinions, behaviors, and requests are discounted because they are “hormonal” and thus irrational.

Often, laboring women’s views and requests and questions are disregarded because they are “hormonal”. This happened to me the first time I was giving birth. I was perfectly rational and coherent, yet I was treated as an irrational animal because I was a woman in labor.

We need more respect for humans as humans with minds and bodies and autonomy over them, male or female.

And we need to deconstruct the narrow-minded quasi-biological stereotypes. No, not all men are aggressive and ambitious just because they happen to secrete more testosterone on average. No, not all women are more nurturing and naturally better suited for 24h/day parenthood just because they happen to secrete more estrogen on average.

And they don’t have to be in order to be called “real” men and women.

Agreed! I know several women that look at a kid and want to run the other way. They haven’t got a nurturing bone in their body but they do have plenty of estrogen. I also know some guys that couldn’t give a darn about football and would rather be outside teaching their kids how to ride a bike. (I’m one…if I had kids)

What I find obvious about the quasi-biological stereotypes is that all their work is very qualitative. They tell you testosterone = aggression but they never say HOW MUCH! Women have testosterone too so by that overly simplified claim women should be aggressors too. Of coarse the argument is “well guys have more.” Well, what is the threshold that makes the difference?

The same is true of men. We have estrogen as well so by the same overly simplified pseudo science we should be nurtures too. Men do nurture in our own way (crisismagazine.com/2012/men-dont-mother) but I think it has more to do with how we were raised than whats flowing through our blood.

Male and female brains are structured differently and that does give rise to difference (psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200803/male-brain-vs-female-brain-i-why-do-men-try-figure-out-t-0). Even then though the “experts” still fail to meaningfully quantify the difference. I will concede they admit that with proper training the differences can minimized though.

 

[silentfactor80]

I would also like to raise the issue of pornography. It came up in another thread (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=754095&page=3). The Catholic Church is very clear what its teaching on this is. The problem with it though it seems largely targeted towards men. Even in Humanae Vitae one the claims is that men will use women if they contracept. Did anyone think women contracept for the pleasure of sex on demand without pregnancy? Maybe the woman is as responsible as the man? My former fiancee was a perfect example where she wanted the Pills and I would rather use NFP or abstain for moral reasons. Many of the church’s teaching about sexuality seem more geared towards “keeping male sexuality in check.” The really ignore female sexuality (huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/08/pat-robertson-shocked-that-women-watch-porn-enjoy-fifty-sahdes-of-gray_n_2094829.html) as do many Christians.

I personally think pornography exploits both men and women. To say it only exploits the woman is rather odd when BOTH make the free decision to act in an X-rated movie. It’s fake and rather insulting to ones intelligence. Also, women watch it too! The numbers estimate between 30%-66% (thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2355510/Shock-Sun-sex-survey-reveals-66-of-women-watch-porn.html). Many do it alone too (cleo.com.au/why-more-women-are-watching-porn.htm). The more modern feminist movement has taken the tone “sex positive” feminists. They claim their version is less violent, more balanced, and doesn’t have supermodel women. To me, its lipstick on a pig. I think this is something the Church should take note of and recognize that women have sexual desire too.

 

[gam197]

originally posted by TimeEntrance
Education is good. The life of the mind is good. I think the life of the mind is a good even absent monetary motivations and monetary rewards. In other words I don’t think law degree = good and a fine arts degree = bad.

If anyone gets a law degree or a doctors degree, great.

originally posted by Nimzovik
Here is a well reasoned article: catholiceducation.org/article…sm/fe0025.html

Ultimately, the first goal should be morals. In American, it is not. Whether it ever was I am not sure. The article posted quotes way back to 1848 shows how these women had little respect for religion. Elizabeth Cady Stanton was a pretty powerful women and no one challenged her on these things?

originally** posted by TimeEntrance**
The Hyundai Equus 2014 by the way… A functional work of art.

Interior glimpse: hyundai-blog.com/wp-conte…or-hyundai.jpg

Luxury condo in Milwaukee:

1. youtube.com/watch?v=WdZsTJvxBHA

1. youtube.com/watch?v=0BBN-yx-VHw

Wow. That’s a lot to strive more.

The documentary (I didn’t see all of it) was called Half a Sky that I watched on MPTV (Milwaukee Public Television).

Her foundation: somaly.org/

I do watch a number of those shows and it does make me very, very grateful to be born in the US.

Feminists think that through the sisterhood they can make changes in these other countries and one of their main focus is to show how badly woman are treated as if the man next door is the same person on the video and they use if for a way of connecting. That is why I am cautious. If I cared, I send some money, not go to a rally to march in the streets.

The third way of feminism is more about I am a female, you’re a male and we are both equal going for the same thing. It really sounds nice, I am just not sure.

girlwriteswhat just posted a new youtube video - pretty long(didn’t post)

Is feminism hate? The 1st 14 minutes is basically a rebuttal against those who claim to be tolerant but then trash her so you could probably skip. The end is pretty good. Caution, she did say 2 S, 1H and !F word. So if that is to much don’t watch. I do find that the people who do rebuttalls use a lot more language.

I thought this video funny(little cleavage hope that is ok) Every female knows “creepy” .

youtube.com/watch?v=xaxKR4CAKf8&list=FLcmnLu5cGUGeLy744WS-fsg&index=3

 

[Nimzovik]

Yah the ‘Creepy Men’ video I had watched a couple of times.

As for Girl Writes What She is MEN’S new BFFL!! Excuse me. I just simply must fanboy out here…Awesome!! Spot on!! A must see!! The ICON of contemporary wisdom of gender issues!! Sweet Rosy O’ Grady - what a brain!! Telling it like it is!!

I… think… I think i have regained my composure…

No! I have not!! Girl Writes What is a phenomenon!!!EEEEyyyyyAAAAAAhhhhhOOOOOOo!!! Finally!! Validation!!

Ok. I 'm back… yah… I am back.

Yah…so there are a few choice words here and there. Big Deal. I have heard worse from Presidents. Anger is a legitimite emotion. Such words, regarding such emotionally charged issues, especially in terms American decorum, are within contemporary societal norms. It is the religous choice words that I would object to. I have not seen that from her. Like I have said in the past. We must be aware, and we must be able to listen to the world and engage the world without giving the ‘air of being superior’ to those we wish to evangelize. We do not have to use such words ourselves.

As for is Feminism hate?

I fall on the definitely yes side of the issue. Feminists = Hate Group. They employ hate speech. (see above) They classify people (men) into horrific stereotypes. They are self serving. They do **not **want equality. They want superiority.

If it wallks like a hate group and talks like a hate group and functions like a repressive hate group - It is a hate group.

Yes. It is just that simple. To say that not all feminists are like that is just NAFALTing.

I have yet to find a feminist group organization that is 100% in compliance with Catholic Doctrine. And if they are not 100% in compliance with Church teaching , why would any Catholic join such an organization?

 

[Nimzovik]

If one wants an example of the lunacy of Feminism just watch Feminist Frequency on You tube. Or watch the Eve Ensler speech at the NOW convention. Girl Writes What nails that one too.

I think you will get my drift.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Feminists think that through the sisterhood they can make changes in these other countries and one of their main focus is to show how badly woman are treated as if the man next door is the same person on the video and they use if for a way of connecting. That is why I am cautious. If I cared, I send some money, not go to a rally to march in the streets.

I have a lot of issues with feminism. If it were just about bringing fairness to girls and women that would not bother me. Even if it asked men to reflect on our short comings and highlighted some of those shortcomings.

But my experience with it is it’s not much about that.

Plus, it promotes, very much encourages, girls and women and society to view boys and men as status and/or financial objects.

But if given only two choices, only one can be picked, I’d rather girls and women around the world become like this, like that kind of feminist, than be put through some of the tragedies that I discussed before (that I won’t mention explicitly so not as to deter the thread). I can’t stomach that. I’m in a certain state of dejection now.

But I would prefer a third option where both sexes could be treated fairly.

Caution, she did say 2 S, 1H and !F word. So if that is to much don’t watch. I do find that the people who do rebuttalls use a lot more language.

“Caution”? LOL. I have the mouth of a sailor.

I thought this video funny(little cleavage hope that is ok) Every female knows “creepy” .

youtube.com/watch?v=xaxKR4CAKf8&list=FLcmnLu5cGUGeLy744WS-fsg&index=3

I agree 100% with this woman. I don’t think I disagree with anything she said.

And it irks me with a certain disdain when I hear women talking about guys being “creepy” just because they’re a bit socially clumsy, a little to shy but very attracted to them, or simply just not that physically appealing but dares to ask them out or approach them.

Not to say there aren’t some boys and men that aren’t creepy for real. There are. They should probably be avoided. And reported if they begin stalking.

But like attractive looking women, attractive and charming men can get away with a lot.

 

[Nimzovik]

Indeed. Hard to argue with that…

 

[Litcrit]

The Catholic Church is very clear what its teaching on this is. The problem with it though it seems largely targeted towards men. Even in Humanae Vitae one the claims is that men will use women if they contracept. Did anyone think women contracept for the pleasure of sex on demand without pregnancy? Maybe the woman is as responsible as the man? My former fiancee was a perfect example where she wanted the Pills and I would rather use NFP or abstain for moral reasons. Many of the church’s teaching about sexuality seem more geared towards “keeping male sexuality in check.” …To me, its lipstick on a pig. I think this is something the Church should take note of and recognize that women have sexual desire too.

Absolutely agree.

You know something is merely a stupid stereotype if it keeps changing.

Until relatively recently, women were, influenced by Plato and Neoplatonic philosophy rampant in the Early Modern period, thought to be the more material, bodily, wanton sex. The womb was seen as a wild animal that demands seed in order to be satisfied.

Men were thought of as spiritual and civilized/civilizing, and women as bodily and material, needing control.

Only recently, in the past two or three centuries, have women started to be seen as asexual angels, and men as horny beasts. You can see the flourishing of this idea in Victorian literature. Its effects are seen in what you’ve mentioned.

We’re still under the influence of both these silly stereotypes, only in different spheres.

 

[Nimzovik]

Hmmmmmmmmm… Interesting…

 

[silentfactor80]

Absolutely agree.

You know something is merely a stupid stereotype if it keeps changing.

Until relatively recently, women were, influenced by Plato and Neoplatonic philosophy rampant in the Early Modern period, thought to be the more material, bodily, wanton sex. The womb was seen as a wild animal that demands seed in order to be satisfied.

Men were thought of as spiritual and civilized/civilizing, and women as bodily and material, needing control.

Only recently, in the past two or three centuries, have women started to be seen as asexual angels, and men as horny beasts. You can see the flourishing of this idea in Victorian literature. Its effects are seen in what you’ve mentioned.

We’re still under the influence of both these silly stereotypes, only in different spheres.

Ah yes, the Victorian Era! Tragedy for mankind. In an earlier (I think) I had posted several links to peer reviewed journals that showed why teens have sex. About 50% of the boys said they did it because their partner wanted to (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17537500). I think the church really needs to stop treating female sexuality as if it were any different than male sexuality. The 2 are complementary so they must be equal in measure for that to be true. I think the Church by silence enables negative expressions of female sexuality to persist by not holding women equally accountable. In church bulletins I always support groups for pornography addiction aimed at men. That to me says the Church thinks only men have a problem with it. The real elephant in the room is that women are more likely to watch lesbian porn which doubly runs a foul of church teaching.

 

[gam197]

Not to change the thread but today, valentine’s day, the feminists are broadcasting “Live” .

live/onebillionrising

 

[Nimzovik]

Ah yes, the Victorian Era! Tragedy for mankind. In an earlier (I think) I had posted several links to peer reviewed journals that showed why teens have sex. About 50% of the boys said they did it because their partner wanted to (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17537500). **I think the church really needs to stop treating female sexuality as if it were any different than male sexuality. **The 2 are complementary so they must be equal in measure for that to be true. I think the Church by silence enables negative expressions of female sexuality to persist by not holding women equally accountable. In church bulletins I always support groups for pornography addiction aimed at men. That to me says the Church thinks only men have a problem with it. The real elephant in the room is that women are more likely to watch lesbian porn which doubly runs a foul of church teaching.

Methinks that the sexuality of the sexes is indeed different. However, for the church to recognize the issue of women being initiators of sexual activity, there I could not agree more. And yes females need to be addressed in terms of their lustful attitudes are as well.

Also. Is not ‘Cosmo’ a form of female porn?

And hey!! How about that female addiction to sparkling Vampires - eh?

 

[Nimzovik]

Not to change the thread but today, valentine’s day, the feminists are broadcasting “Live” .

live/onebillionrising

Excuse me? ** live/onebillionrising** -?

I wish Feminists would stop lying to themselves and to others when they think the majority of women are Pro - Feminist.

 

[silentfactor80]

Methinks that the sexuality of the sexes is indeed different. However, for the church to recognize the issue of women being initiators of sexual activity, there I could not agree more. And yes females need to be addressed in terms of their lustful attitudes are as well.

Also. Is not ‘Cosmo’ a form of female porn?

And hey!! How about that female addiction to sparkling Vampires - eh?

Yeah, that is what I meant. Yes, we are different but I think in terms of accountability we are the same.

 

[gam197]

I love it that feminists are suppose to having a “live” event and they can’t get their cameras to work.( say they are setting up but all you can see is a dark room or nothing much)

My sense of humor has really gotten strange.

 

[Nimzovik]

Oh no! Your humor has gotten strange? Quick! Run to your Doctor! Maybe you have ‘testosterone poisoning!!’

 

[lerapt78]

There are four men’s rights issues that I feel are more concerning than the others listed here:

1. Academic “stifling”
2. Family court / custody battles
3. Domestic violence
4. Abortion (although this one is trickier to tackle, and I have never once viewed it as a strictly feminist issue)

Of the four listed above, I think great strides are taking place to bring about more balance between the genders: #3 and #4. More and more, fathers are winning custody battles in this country. Regarding domestic violence, my observation is admittedly not based on statistics, but rather only on what I see on TV. . . . however, if anyone ever watches shows like “Jail” and “Las Vegas Strip”, one will most definitely notice that an equal (if not greater) number of women are being arrested on domestic charges. This may not mean that they are actually being *convicted *of these crimes, but hey, at least the fact that they are being hauled in in handcuffs means that the attitudes toward “justice for all” are changing, and that’s something!

OP, I read the book “The Myth of Male Power” years ago and even though I don’t remember much of the details, it certainly opened my eyes to issues I hadn’t previously considered.

 

[Nimzovik]

Yes. I would also add a fifth one that needs to be addressed immediately.

5 Paternity Fraud.

and a 6th one

1. Circumcison - Genital mutilation.

The first cut truly is the deepest.