Mental Illness and the Soul

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One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?
 
One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?
The soul relies upon the material organs of the body to process information, and relies upon the structure of the body to affect operations. Remember that the soul does not wear the body like a suit of clothes, but the soul and body form one composite thing. Yes, it is true that the intellect and will are functions proper to the soul and are immaterial, but their operation always (at least in this life) depend upon material operations in the body. Even in the simplest thought process, the soul and brain are in constant “dialogue”. The mind produces phantasms from which the Agent Intellect (an operation of the soul) abstracts knowledge, the soul then works with the body to produce new phantasms, from which the soul can again abstract, and so forth. There is a constant bakc and forth between material and immaterial elements. Thus, if the material elements are not functioning properly, it severely limits the operation of the soul, which so closely depends upon the material operations of the body.
 
Yeah, what Katholish said. And habit, which is in the soul, is a second nature.
 
One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?
Pieman:

The body and the brain is the most intimate housing of the soul. It is so intimate with the soul that the soul extends to every cell of it. We are fully men and fully women, on this planet, not dual entities that merely inhabit the same place. “Place,” you will remember, is the innermost immobile surface of a surrounding body. When we find ourselves in a “place” we find ourselves displacing all else that was present in that space before. We fully occupy that place. Nor does either the interior body or the exterior body become one. But the soul and the body is one. The soul displaces nothing.

The soul is like the ink-words on the paper that is the body. Neither displacing the other, but, instead making it this particular paper, or page, and not some other. Now, what happens if I tear that sheet of paper? Can the ink force a restoration of the blemished paper? There is a tear: sometimes it can be repaired through the use of cellophane tape, and the ink-words can be pretty well restored. But, sometimes the tear is such that the very surface of the paper, at the point of the tear, is virtually destroyed and cannot be perfectly read, even after an application of good tape. Don’t we tend to presume what the letters and the words were whenever something like this happens? And, the more delicate the paper the more potentially extensive the destruction of the ink-words. (Sorry, that was a quick analogy, but, not a perfect one!)

God bless,
jd
 
One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?
Of the rare occasions when i’ve seen Catholics wander into the halls of cognitive science /neuroscience (although it is becoming a rather popular topic amongst certain circles… however the erm Buddhists have beat you folks to the front of line by about a decade) the case of Mr. Phineas Gage stands out as an example of what you’ve cited.

Gage is probably the “go-to” example that most first year undergraduate students are taught about - he was a railroad worker in the 1800s who after suffering a terrible accident where in a metal bar punctured a section of his skull - blinding him and severely damaging a portion of the brain.

His personality pre and post accident were quite different - so dramatic that many of his long time associates essentially said he was a completely different man., no longer Gage.

From what i understand this caused a little bit of a stir amongst those who believe in the concept of the soul - as questions regarding how to interpret this event arose. One particularly interesting one more relevant to science at least was - “Where is the “seat” of the personality?”

And from a religious viewpoint, “Who would Gage be afterward?” - as in since you believe in an afterlife what sort of Gage would exist - the New One or the Old One?

Of course you can probably guess the general materialist response: The mind being an emergent property of the physical brain…etc.etc…

Interestingly enough (and relevant for you), a set of papers regarding Neuroscience and Selfhood co-sponsored by the Vatican Observatory eventually came across my desk.

It portrayed a kind of spectrum of opinion that exists within the Christian tradition regarding the concept of “Person” - from a severe mind-body dualism advocated by Neoplatonism and its Christian proponents to the Aristotlean like explanations typical of the followers of Thomas Aquinas.

There was a 3rd view - one which i have learned that seems to be rather popular in current strands of Judaism - the “Hebraic turn.” It goes something like - ancient Judaism posits no life after death. There is no traveling to some otherworldly place - that’s a view conditioned by Greek Philosophy created by Plato’s Myth of Ur.

Instead there is the hope of bodily resurrection at some future point in time by the Messiah.

In other words - the soul can’t exist without the body. (Hey to me this pretty much sounds like the mind is an emergent property of a physical brain - ghost in the machine, et al.) But there is nothing to worry about - namely because there exists an entity who can restore your “person” after your death.

You’d probably call him Jesus.

It also neatly solves the theological problem embodied in the Gage issue - damaged Gage would be restored to his old self.

Now is this a teaching of your Church? I’ve actually wondered that myself namely because its one of those few times we’re we can at least nod in agreement with each other (up to the point about that special entity…but that goes beyond the matter of Neuroscience).

I have seen Catholic theologians utilize such an argument before as well…even on this forum! But then again i’ve seen a lot of Catholic theologians uphold positions that i would later find out to be considered heterodox…for now at least…🤷
 
TheAtheist:

From the Catechism:

1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul, The human person is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake."From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.

1705 By virtue of his soul and his spiritual powers of intellect and will, man is endowed with freedom, an “outstanding manifestation of the divine image.”

Council of Vienne, ~1300 :

“we define that anyone who presumes henceforth to assert defend or hold stubbornly that the rational or intellectual soul is not the form of the human body of itself and essentially, is to be considered a heretic.”

I’m pretty darn sure from the above that it’s the official Catholic position that the soul is spiritual. If the soul is spiritual, then it is immortal; i.e. exists and cannot be brought out of existence due to material death of the body. Nor are the spiritual aspects of man deriviative from the brain, as this is a material being. Although the intellect is dependent upon the brain for feeding it sense information (and for the reverse process), it cannot be dependent upon the brain for its existence or its rational powers, since to be spiritual by definition pretty much means to be immaterial. Of course this is the very point that is contested, between the view that Humans are distinct and set apart from animals in their rationality as a spiritual power vs. the view that we are just “smarter” than other animals, that we basically function in the same way, that there is no spiritual nature to what we call rationality.
 
If memory serves, Catholic teaching agrees and disagrees with what you’ve described:

The soul is not the brain, it is not dependent on the brain. The brain is some thing, the soul is some one. Thus soul and brain operate in two completely separate categories, and to conflate them is to commit a category error, the error of identifying matter (brainbody) with spirit (soul, rational intellect). Moreover, the soul is immortal by nature.

The soul’s immortality is not derived from a divine miracle, but rather from the nature of the soul itself. Just as certain seeds are designed to survive forest fires, so too souls survive brainbody death because they are designed to do so. It is in their nature to survive. They - as “simple”, non-material entities - are inherently deathless. God is not necessary to ensure the soul’s immortality, except as the Designer who so ordered that the soul be an immortal creature. God does not save the soul from extinction - the soul by its nature cannot be extinguished. What God does is save the soul from moral corruption, i.e., God grants redemption or salvation to the soul. But those are two different things.

What Jesus/God do in the resurrection is not to ensure the survival of souls. Rather, they ensure the resurrection of those souls’ bodies. The Church has always taught the immateriality and immortality of the soul. Following the Pauline-Jewish notion of bodily resurrection, the Church declared that God will save (raise up) bodies at the end of time. The soul’s immortality is a given, due to the soul’s inherent deathlessness. But the body’s immortality is a special intervention to be performed by God in the “last days”.
 
I’m pretty darn sure from the above that it’s the official Catholic position that the soul is spiritual. If the soul is spiritual, then it is immortal; i.e. exists and cannot be brought out of existence due to material death of the body. Nor are the spiritual aspects of man deriviative from the brain, as this is a material being. Although the intellect is dependent upon the brain for feeding it sense information (and for the reverse process), it cannot be dependent upon the brain for its existence or its rational powers, since to be spiritual by definition pretty much means to be immaterial. Of course this is the very point that is contested, between the view that Humans are distinct and set apart from animals in their rationality as a spiritual power vs. the view that we are just “smarter” than other animals, that we basically function in the same way, that there is no spiritual nature to what we call rationality.
Yeah, i looked it up afterward out of curiousity - apparently you would call this a heresy of “Annhihilationism?”

I also decided to pop an email off to a friend whose on the road to a rabbinic scholar, he corrected a mistake of mine:

“The person is a Psycho-Physical Unit. The Soul exists, but unlike the Christians, we wouldn’t necessarily say its Active (it has no means of expressing itself) once a person has passed away. It finds life again in the World to Come.”

(Which i interpret to mean some sort of reunification with the Body)

I guess this is the reason why some jewish sects consider the idea of ghosts to be an incoherent phenomena for them …
 
“The soul’s immortality is not derived from a divine miracle, but rather from the nature of the soul itself. … It is in their nature to survive. God is not necessary to ensure the soul’s immortality, except as the Designer who so ordered that the soul be an immortal creature.”

Great, but I would clarify that the soul’s immortality IS derived from a divine miracle in the creation of the soul itself, which God does for all souls. Of course after this the soul cannot be destroyed, unless God chooses to annihilate it. I think that you were getting at this in describing God as Designer.
 
“The person is a Psycho-Physical Unit. The Soul exists, but unlike the Christians, we wouldn’t necessarily say its Active (it has no means of expressing itself) once a person has passed away. It finds life again in the World to Come.”
(Which i interpret to mean some sort of reunification with the Body)
I guess this is the reason why some jewish sects consider the idea of ghosts to be an incoherent phenomena for them …
You know, I don’t know if there’s anything to support the idea that the spiritual aspect of the soul has any power of interaction or expression or anything like that. The furthest one could possibly go using Thomistic philosophy in determining what a spiritual soul “looks” like without its body is to just say that it exists, nothing more. The New Testament implies in places that the soul has some sort of interactive existence (e.g. purgatoryish passages), but I’m not really sure where that is. Maybe someone else can help.
 
One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?
I may be wrong but the soul doesn’t play any role.The soul is like a chalkboard.Actually its like a personality.The body is a mirror of the soul.If a person is sinful or in great mortal sin it will show in a person’s disposition or attitude.The soul is spirit.it has no mass.But everytime we sin or do good it gets purer or cloudier.
 
You know, I don’t know if there’s anything to support the idea that the spiritual aspect of the soul has any power of interaction or expression or anything like that. The furthest one could possibly go using Thomistic philosophy in determining what a spiritual soul “looks” like without its body is to just say that it exists, nothing more. The New Testament implies in places that the soul has some sort of interactive existence (e.g. purgatoryish passages), but I’m not really sure where that is. Maybe someone else can help.
But what about your Saints? I mean the little old Italian lady who runs the local bakery prays to Padre Pio daily (yes yes i’m aware of the distinction between praying to God and asking for intercession from everyone else - please also be aware that the large swath of your laity tends to not take such things into consideration)- i’m assuming she’s trying to interact with something that can interact back.

The Jews bypass this issue since everyone whose died is “asleep” in Sheol…or the Bosom of Abraham.
 
But what about your Saints? I mean the little old Italian lady who runs the local bakery prays to Padre Pio daily (yes yes i’m aware of the distinction between praying to God and asking for intercession from everyone else - please also be aware that the large swath of your laity tends to not take such things into consideration)- i’m assuming she’s trying to interact with something…

The Jews bypass this issue since everyone whose died is “asleep” in Sheol…or the Bosom of Abraham.
Oh yes, I pray to Mary every day (who still has her body) and to St. Joseph (who I guess doesn’t) and for all the holy souls in purgatory (who also don’t). But this stems from interpretation of the New Testament passages (e.g. Jesus’ saying that God is the God of the living, not the dead when he speaks of Moses and the prophets, the Transfiguration of Christ, etc.) that would necessarily be excluded by a Jewish scholar. It’s a matter of faith and teaching to determine what powers the spiritual soul has after death but before the resurrection, not so much philosophical. Nor is the resurrection a necessity, philosophically, except there is a certain disorder about separating a soul that continues to exist from a body that doesn’t, but to say that because it is disordered means that the soul in of it’s own power will reunite itself to its old or another body I don’t think can be said. Otherwise why would we die in the first place if the soul had the power to “resurrect” another body on its own?
 
”… St. Paul’s inspired enthusiasms about our future state reveal without exception the sense of victory over bodily death through the resurrection of the flesh…

“…With this overwhelming mode of expression in modern philosophical and theological literature *, it becomes inevitable that the great problem of the survival of man’s soul should be described as the problem of the soul’s immortality; but it would be sufficient, and vastly more logical, to speak of the soul’s spirituality.

“…The only ground on which we can establish the principle that the soul cannot die is this, that it is spiritual and that it has always been spiritual; it is not death-proof through some hidden, extrinsic quality which only asserts itself at the demolition of the body.
Code:
		“§ VI: The State of the Human Soul After Death
“The survival of man’s soul after the disintegration after death once granted, there arises the entrancing but also perplexing subject of the conditions under which that soul exists when thus separated from the body. This grave question, in spite of its obscurity, has always possessed a kind of allurement for the human mind. From the cult of the saints down to necromancy, the powers of discarnate human spirits have always played a great role in the religious history of mankind. The data of Catholic revelation are clear but few, and they are concerned only with the souls of the elect, the saved. At death, says the Catholic Church, the human soul, if it be in a state of perfect charity, will enter into heavenly bliss, without any retardation. It will enjoy the Vision of God in an entirely intellectual way in a degree that will correspond with the supernatural merits acquired by it during life. The soul will not be in a state of unconsciousness, but will be fully aware of its own existence, its election, its final escape from evil. To a great extent it will be in a state of expectation, awaiting reunion with the body; without which man’s life, even his glorified life, cannot be full and entire. In that condition of disembodied happiness the souls of the saved constitute a portion of Christ’s Church; they are the Church Triumphant; they are in communion with the Church here on earth, they receive our prayers, they intercede for us before the Throne of God.

“If the soul of the Christian, though in a state of grace at death, yet not be in perfect charity, then admission to heavenly bliss is retarded; the soul is perfected through a mysterious process called purgatory. Discarnate spirits in that state are also part of the Church; they are the Suffering Church; they are in communion with the rest of the Church passively, receiving the benefit of the intercession of all other Christians.” – The Teaching of the Catholic Church, Vol II, XXXI “Death and Judgement,” p. 1112 ff

The above passages sum up the Catholic position on the soul and its whereabouts after death. As was previously said, the Jewish Scholar would not be considerate of New Testament revelation, especially in his role as a Jewish Scholar. Christianity’s evidences are classified under three headings: (1) the whole attitude of the Christian Church, which assumes a spiritual soul in man. I.e., the entirety of the outpourings of the Holy Ghost presuppose the existence, in man, of that which is capable if receiving the gifts of God, the benefits of regeneration, and the powers of the Sacraments – the absence of something higher than merely flesh and blood would render the purposes of the Church meaningless. (2) The natural, historic tradition of mankind. (3) The conclusions of spiritualistic philosophy, from the Greeks down to us.

Most of the foregoing is revealed to man particularly in the New Testament, which is the eighth and final Covenant of God with man. Christianity represents the fulfillment of the history of man and man’s soteriology.

God bless,
jd*
 
One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?
Being interested in Psychiatry, you know then that not certain disorders can be “willed” away!
Instances of diagnosis related to Bipolar, Major Depression recurrent, Anxiety disorders, not of a social status…but of a panic attack disorder, and of course schizoaffective disorder, and schizophrenia itself are due to chemical imbalances, and as the such, can NOT be “willed” away, but do require medication to counter-balance the chemical imbalance,and assist the person (with therapy, which can be spiritual as well) overcome and lead a healthy productive life! Many do!

Certain disorders are indeed of strictly social disorders…borderline personality disorder being one…usually requiring years of therapy, of which of course the soul/spirit is a huge determining factor in the outcome of progress for these individuals!

The soul must be treated in any case…medical or psychiatric…first and foremost!

Read on St. Guiseppi Moscati…a modern saint on his philosophy of healing…👍
 
The soul is like the ink-words on the paper that is the body. Neither displacing the other, but, instead making it this particular paper, or page, and not some other. Now, what happens if I tear that sheet of paper? Can the ink force a restoration of the blemished paper? There is a tear: sometimes it can be repaired through the use of cellophane tape, and the ink-words can be pretty well restored. But, sometimes the tear is such that the very surface of the paper, at the point of the tear, is virtually destroyed and cannot be perfectly read, even after an application of good tape. Don’t we tend to presume what the letters and the words were whenever something like this happens? And, the more delicate the paper the more potentially extensive the destruction of the ink-words. (Sorry, that was a quick analogy, but, not a perfect one!)
But how is the ink unaffected? If the words can’t be recovered, how can they survive, and not be damaged as such (I presume that in going to heaven one would lose any mental disorder they had)
 
But how is the ink unaffected? If the words can’t be recovered, how can they survive, and not be damaged as such (I presume that in going to heaven one would lose any mental disorder they had)
Pieman:

That is correct. The ink, per se, is not torn or broken. Only that to which it is bonded is torn and broken. Of course, if the paper remains torn and broken, that part of the ink will be affected in some way. Upon full restoration, at the end of time, as is said, the ink and the paper - as it was originally - will be reunited perfectly. Remember, I told you this was a quick analogy.😊

God bless,🙂
jd
 
for anyone interested in seeing “Soul” in action, catch tonight on EWTN part II of Saint Dr. Guiseppi Moscati’s story…it is fantastic!!!
 
The OP reminded me of something from the book Sayings of The Desert Fathers. It is attrubuted to St. Anthony (c. 251–356), the Father of Monasticism.

“Abba Anthony said, ‘A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, "You are mad, you are not like us.’”

The implication is that our criteria for diagnosing mental illness may not be objective. Would anyone who has done the research care to take a stab at laying out exactly what a mental disorder is?
 
The OP reminded me of something from the book Sayings of The Desert Fathers. It is attrubuted to St. Anthony (c. 251–356), the Father of Monasticism.

“Abba Anthony said, ‘A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, "You are mad, you are not like us.’”

The implication is that our criteria for diagnosing mental illness may not be objective. Would anyone who has done the research care to take a stab at laying out exactly what a mental disorder is?
Well, many of the so-called mental disorders are actually bodily diseases which alter the way we think. For instance, Schizophrenia is called a mental disorder but is actually a string of thought (and to a lesser extent, sense) which is distorted because of brain changes - often in chemical and hormone balance. In fact, Schizophrenia has been shown to destroy over 25% of Gray Matter in the brain. So, there is some amount of subjectivity in diagnostics, but even though the diagnosis is based on violating the social norm, there is suffice evidence that something is actually wrong with those people.
 
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