Mental Illness and the Soul

[TheAtheist]

The implication is that our criteria for diagnosing mental illness may not be objective. Would anyone who has done the research care to take a stab at laying out exactly what a mental disorder is?

Well that is a giant can of worms. At best we can say its a behavioral pattern inconsistent with normal development.

Of course “normal development” is something that is not exactly up to objective verification. A strict definition may in fact be beyond us at this time.

One the one hand, certain types of mental illnesses are easy to identify insofar as they violate common behavioral patterns. Extreme phobia against a cognitively neutral object is one. Obsessive-Compulsive disorders regarding a repetitive action is another.

On the other hand we also have a set of disorders that speak to a series of erroneous beliefs. A hard and fast rule of thumb points to a person who is either claiming something that is against the accumulated wisdom of society and against common experience.

If an individual claims he is the Emperor of Brazil and does so with much fervor of belief, we can of course deny his claim given our collective knowledge about the country and history of Brazil.

If an individual claims he can walk off a cliff and into the air without falling - again we would be inclined to say that the man has taken leave of his senses given that it would violate the known laws of physics and the more common sensical experience that no human being can accomplish that feat.

These are cut and dry examples of course…but what about more subtle ones?

An individual believes that they have been abducted and surgical probed by aliens. What are we to say to that? It is well within the realm of possiblity that life exists elsewhere in the universe. But the likelihood of the account being true begins to diminish as more and more “explanatory details” are added on along with a paucity of evidence to verify the claim. We have no choice but to dismiss his or her claim.

But we do so with an admitted margin of error, however slight that error might be.

 

[TheAtheist]

Well, many of the so-called mental disorders are actually bodily diseases which alter the way we think. For instance, Schizophrenia is called a mental disorder but is actually a string of thought (and to a lesser extent, sense) which is distorted because of brain changes - often in chemical and hormone balance. In fact, Schizophrenia has been shown to destroy over 25% of Gray Matter in the brain. So, there is some amount of subjectivity in diagnostics, but even though the diagnosis is based on violating the social norm, there is suffice evidence that something is actually wrong with those people.

Agreed. If we’re framing mental disorder in terms of proper neurobiological function, than it becomes exceedingly easier to actually define/classify/identify a disorder.

 

[Shin]

One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?

You’re reminding me of some of my reading of ‘Introduction to the Science of Mental Health’ by Fr. Chad Ripperger, Ph.D., F.S.S.P. But he focused mostly on the mind and soul and did not work greatly with the physiological if I recall correctly.

 

[inocente]

The implication is that our criteria for diagnosing mental illness may not be objective. Would anyone who has done the research care to take a stab at laying out exactly what a mental disorder is?

A general definition might be: disturbances of thought, experience and emotion serious enough as to make it hard to function or relate to others, sometimes leading to destructive behavior and suicide.

In practice medics agree on criteria such as those in the DSM-IV to help them diagnose and treat disorders. Short summaries of disorders listed in the DSM are given here.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

A general definition might be: disturbances of thought, experience and emotion serious enough as to make it hard to function or relate to others, sometimes leading to destructive behavior and suicide.

That sounds a bit like the conditions that lead to sin. It may be that St. Anthony was warning us that some day sin will begin to be mistaken for virtue, and virtue for sin. Who gets to decide what goes into the DSM and what gets left out?

 

[inocente]

That sounds a bit like the conditions that lead to sin. It may be that St. Anthony was warning us that some day sin will begin to be mistaken for virtue, and virtue for sin.

The definition I gave says the disturbances have to be sufficiently serious. For example feeling anxious when startled is healthy, it’s only a problem when there’s no reason. It’s all about whether the individual is distressed or may harm themselves/others, and even then the DSM lays down criteria to decide whether it’s sufficiently serious.

I think there used to be the idea of “normal” behavior, but that got discarded because it was too subjective and open to abuse (e.g. confining people who just had a different lifestyle).

There’s no moral opinion involved. For instance, a psychiatrist might say an armed robber needs treatment but it’s up to the judge whether he goes to prison.

Who gets to decide what goes into the DSM and what gets left out?

They have conferences, work groups and so on – see here.

 

[JDaniel]

One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?

Pieman:

Although I do not adhere to the quasi-religious beliefs of Scientology, I think that they have some interesting concepts concerning mental aberrations and perhaps some effective technology to correct them. Their ideas center upon an exigency they call an “engram.” An engram is essentially a stored psychological injury that is the result of a physical injury (usually but not always), during which the injured was semi- or un-conscious. If no one else was around when such an injury took place, no harm, no foul. However, if several people were around there is no doubt that one or more of them did some talking in the vicinity of the unconscious injured. Anything said that is unkind about the injured person while in the state of semi- or un-consciousness, or speculative as to what the injured is going through, is taken in by the ears and recorded, with its imperfections, in that part of the mind that is called the reactive mind.

To the Scientologist, there are two primary parts of the mind: the reactive part: which is what tells the body to run when approached by danger; and, the analytic mind, which is that part of the mind that reasons things out. The reactive mind is, by this scenario, much more operative than the analytic mind, precisely because it is in tune with our survival dynamic. By being stored in that part of the mind, the engram is never challenged, so to speak, for analysis by the analytic mind. Now, there are things that come up from time to time, in our lives, that cause our minds to want to tend to react, to flee, to erect our defenses. As these sorts of things continue to occur, the mind, unable to figure out why it reacts in such and such a way, begins a process of declining down what is called a tone scale.

The top, or epitome, of the tone scale is Enthusiasm and Happiness. There are different levels as one descends the scale down to, ultimately, Apathy. But, slightly above Apathy are levels that our family and neighbors can discern without understanding. These strange tics may increase in severity as time goes on, but, without intervention they will not correct themselves. Some of the levels immediately above Apathy are things like Propitiation and Anger.

Scientology claims to have a technology to “clear” those “engrams” from the reactive mind to bring the aberrated individual back up the tone scale to a condition of normalcy, which is lasting, unless the individual undergoes another injury (obviously). Some collateral effects of the process of “auditing” (to bring the person up the tone scale) is that the person’s IQ is increased, calmness is restored, the ability to mentally control certain afflictions is increased, and the individual is restored to civility.

I can’t deny any of their theories. Why? Because there was a point in time when the psychiatric profession called upon Scientology to usurp the technology. That was in the early 1960’s I think. But, from what I understand, the psychiatric profession did not want to give up their use of electro-shock treatment and their license to prescribe psycho-tropic drugs. Scientology is opposed to such things.

God bless,
jd

 

[inocente]

I can’t deny any of their theories. Why? Because there was a point in time when the psychiatric profession called upon Scientology to usurp the technology. That was in the early 1960’s I think.

Who’s propaganda are you reading? I mean if there’s any peer-reviewed evidence that it works then let’s hear it but on its own thread – it seems fool-hardy to discuss something that’s so dangerous to mental health on a thread about mental illness.

Off-hand it’s hard to think of a more harmful cult. Hubbard apparently set it up as a scam to make his fortune, became a paranoid recluse (it’s said he popped psychotropic drugs most of his life), and his son, who was being groomed to take over, committed suicide aged 22.

It’s based on Eastern beliefs including reincarnation, and on black magic, which Hubbard studied: “When [Aleister] Crowley [The Great Beast] died in 1954, my father thought he should wear the cloak of the beast and become the most powerful being in the universe . . . What a lot of people don’t realize is that Scientology is black magic . . . spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or, at most, a few weeks, but in Scientology it’s stretched out over a lifetime and so you don’t see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology – and is probably the only part of Scientology that works.” - christianinformation.org/article.asp?artID=104 (but of course black magic doesn’t work either )

It involves the remarkably silly belief that “mental image pictures are actually composed of energy. They have mass, they exist in space" and the mystic belief that unwanted images can be cleared by “processing” with a special technology . (The quote is from the Scientology site but I won’t give the url as my security software says it’s risky).

Here’s a UK government report on Scientology. The section on auditing “preclears" says the wonderful technology is no more than a Wheatstone Bridge, invented in 1833 to measure electrical resistance - it can be used in party games to fool people that it’s a lie detector. The auditing process itself, by which adherents are “treated”, amounts to a primitive form of brain-washing, what in previous centuries might have been called satanic:

*“I located a moment of loss in the patient’s past and she gave me the number 56. By using the E-meter the time of this moment of loss was 56 B.C., the date being March 19th. … For a large part of the time the preclear went through and felt she was actually in the incident, and went through degradation, unconsciousness, effort, pain, physical agony, emotion and thoughts in the incident. Later the patient could view the whole incident objectively and take full responsibility for it.

The act of suicide was not easy for the preclear to confront, but with some prompting, she did it all right." *

It could be argued that Hubbard cynically combined the most ridiculously inane and pernicious ideas he could come up with (dress up as navy dudes anyone?) to see how many he could still part from their money. At any rate, it’s hard to think of a cult that’s less Christian, less common sense and more dangerous.

 

[inocente]

One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?

I’m no expert but thought the Catholic view of the soul is that it’s integral with the body:

CCC 365: The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

 

[marica_mandic]

One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?

Soul can help mental illness but ill person need spiritual priest.
Priest who very much think about heal soul.

 

[praxising]

Who gets to decide what goes into the DSM and what gets left out?

Whoever shows up at the conference and votes. It’s *real *scientific.

Anyone really interested in the topic of defining metal illness would probably like to read Agnes’s Jacket by Gail Hornstein PhD People get defined as mentally ill by displaying certain traits or behaviors that get classified as symptoms. You can learn from this book that a classic symptom, hearing voices, isn’t necessarily one of them, but is a fairly common trait amongst humans occurring in an apparently predictable percentage of the population. What’s interesting is how otherwise healthy people have been made into mental patients.

Conversely, some things that are just regarded as rude, obnoxious or stupid behaviors are symptoms of mental illness. But we’d rather think someone is just rude, obnoxious or stupid. Otherwise it might not be their fault and then we couldn’t feel victimized and superior and dismiss them.

The mentally ill are an opportunity for Grace for everyone. .

 

[Pieman333272]

Whoever shows up at the conference and votes. It’s *real *scientific.

Anyone really interested in the topic of defining metal illness would probably like to read Agnes’s Jacket by Gail Hornstein PhD People get defined as mentally ill by displaying certain traits or behaviors that get classified as symptoms. You can learn from this book that a classic symptom, hearing voices, isn’t necessarily one of them, but is a fairly common trait amongst humans occurring in an apparently predictable percentage of the population. What’s interesting is how otherwise healthy people have been made into mental patients.

Conversely, some things that are just regarded as rude, obnoxious or stupid behaviors are symptoms of mental illness. But we’d rather think someone is just rude, obnoxious or stupid. Otherwise it might not be their fault and then we couldn’t feel victimized and superior and dismiss them.

The mentally ill are an opportunity for Grace for everyone. .

There are 3 “classes” of mental disorder I’ve observed:

1. Symptoms exclusive to the mind which we only declare a “mental disorder” because it breaks a social or cultural taboo we have set - this is the case with things like Sexual Paraphilia and Mental Retardation.
2. Symptoms exclusive to the mind which we declare a mental disorder, but something is obviously wrong beyond simply violating a social et. all taboo we have set. These are some forms of Schizophrenia, Social Anxiety Disorder, etc.
3. Symptoms shown in the mind, but brain, body, or genetic distortion is very clearly a symptom or cause. There is no denying that these are very real and these are not simply in the DSM because they have a trait the doctors don’t like. I advise reading Schizophrenia is a Disorder of the Brain by E. Fuller Torrey for information on this.

The problem is, the Anti-Psychaitry movement thinks all the diseases fall under 1. That is blatantly false and has been proven. I hate to disagree with one of my own kind, but it is a simple fact that Mental Illness is very real, a large problem, and that Psychiatry and Psychology are real-deal subjects.

Of course, we shouldn’t be mean to the mentally disordered. We are getting better and better - over the course of a century, we’ve gone from restraining them in chairs to playing pool with them in the mental hospital! Indeed, the mentally ill are a chance for us to do God’s Will - if we can. Some simply refuse friendship, treatment, and anything we can give them. But just because they actually are disordered doesn’t mean we should act mean to them.

 

[JDaniel]

Inocente:

Actually, I’m not going to argue with you on this. Some of what you said I believe. Some, maybe not so much. Be that as it may, I have seen the improvements in more than several people with my own eyes. After the fiasco with the psychiatrists, it is my understanding that Hubbard withheld any and all technology. Now, who would be the scientists who could write peer reviews?

The things that I wrote were not intended to harm any one: and, I’m certainly more convinced that the majority of readers here are more intelligent and discerning than you give them credit for. The thread seemed to me to not be progressing when I jumped in. That’s not any kind of excuse, it was what it was.

Now, you, on the other hand, what first-hand knowledge do you have? Seems to me that all you have proffered is second and third hand, with a special interest in the anti-Scientologist websites. I, unlike you, live right next door to their largest organization: Clearwater, FL. It is called “Flag.” I am also aware that much of the anti-Scientology rhetoric has been self-serving propaganda put forth by those who have been cast out.

This forum is not the place to denigrate another ‘religion’. If you wish more information - positive and/or negative - IM me. I will be as honest as possible.

Happy Easter,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Whoever shows up at the conference and votes. It’s *real *scientific.

Anyone really interested in the topic of defining metal illness would probably like to read Agnes’s Jacket by Gail Hornstein PhD People get defined as mentally ill by displaying certain traits or behaviors that get classified as symptoms. You can learn from this book that a classic symptom, hearing voices, isn’t necessarily one of them, but is a fairly common trait amongst humans occurring in an apparently predictable percentage of the population. What’s interesting is how otherwise healthy people have been made into mental patients.

Praxising:

Quite true:and many by the very group of professionals in the pseudo-medical practice that is supposed to help!

Conversely, some things that are just regarded as rude, obnoxious or stupid behaviors are symptoms of mental illness. But we’d rather think someone is just rude, obnoxious or stupid. Otherwise it might not be their fault and then we couldn’t feel victimized and superior and dismiss them.

The mentally ill are an opportunity for Grace for everyone. .

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Who’s propaganda are you reading? I mean if there’s any peer-reviewed evidence that it works then let’s hear it but on its own thread – it seems fool-hardy to discuss something that’s so dangerous to mental health on a thread about mental illness.

Off-hand it’s hard to think of a more harmful cult. Hubbard apparently set it up as a scam to make his fortune, became a paranoid recluse (it’s said he popped psychotropic drugs most of his life), and his son, who was being groomed to take over, committed suicide aged 22.

It’s based on Eastern beliefs including reincarnation, and on black magic, which Hubbard studied: “When [Aleister] Crowley [The Great Beast] died in 1954, my father thought he should wear the cloak of the beast and become the most powerful being in the universe . . . What a lot of people don’t realize is that Scientology is black magic . . . spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or, at most, a few weeks, but in Scientology it’s stretched out over a lifetime and so you don’t see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology – and is probably the only part of Scientology that works.” - christianinformation.org/article.asp?artID=104 (but of course black magic doesn’t work either )

It involves the remarkably silly belief that “mental image pictures are actually composed of energy. They have mass, they exist in space" and the mystic belief that unwanted images can be cleared by “processing” with a special technology . (The quote is from the Scientology site but I won’t give the url as my security software says it’s risky).

Here’s a UK government report on Scientology. The section on auditing “preclears" says the wonderful technology is no more than a Wheatstone Bridge, invented in 1833 to measure electrical resistance - it can be used in party games to fool people that it’s a lie detector. The auditing process itself, by which adherents are “treated”, amounts to a primitive form of brain-washing, what in previous centuries might have been called satanic:

*“I located a moment of loss in the patient’s past and she gave me the number 56. By using the E-meter the time of this moment of loss was 56 B.C., the date being March 19th. … For a large part of the time the preclear went through and felt she was actually in the incident, and went through degradation, unconsciousness, effort, pain, physical agony, emotion and thoughts in the incident. Later the patient could view the whole incident objectively and take full responsibility for it.

The act of suicide was not easy for the preclear to confront, but with some prompting, she did it all right.*"

It could be argued that Hubbard cynically combined the most ridiculously inane and pernicious ideas he could come up with (dress up as navy dudes anyone?) to see how many he could still part from their money. At any rate, it’s hard to think of a cult that’s less Christian, less common sense and more dangerous.

Inocente:

To make matter’s worse, all of your supposed evidence is based on rumor, as it all insists, with a little truth mixed in. Rumor. If you want some real stuff, we must take this off-line. Our mods will not take kindly to religion-bashing, even though, per se, it is not a “religion,” in any sense of the word, in my opinion. Now, if our mod says it’s OK, I can give you the real snitty. Not junk rumor.

All that said, and notwithstanding that it is not religion, I can tell you that some, at least, of their technology, as it is called, is more than likely effective. I am somewhat sure that they do not attempt to “treat” the more serious disorders, such as schizophrenia, neuroses, and psycho-physical pathologies.

I don’t remember the dates, but there really was a time when the psychiatric community had a strong desire to embrace just such a technology. Now, you have to ask yourself a few questions: first, why does the industry still embrace electro-shock therapy, when it knows that it will probably inflict more harm than good? Second, why does the industry default to drugs to assuage bi-polar syndrome - when they are known to be an ineffective curative treatment? And third, why does the industry turn more people into patients that should not be patients than any other medical profession?

All of what I said is by no means intended to bash psychiatry. I think that psychiatry has simply annexed more than it should have. I’m sure that the profession is effective for the tough stuff. I have close relatives that are Scientologists and close relatives that are in the psychiatric field. So, this is a constant debate around these parts!

God bless,
jd

 

[inocente]

After the fiasco with the psychiatrists, it is my understanding that Hubbard withheld any and all technology. Now, who would be the scientists who could write peer reviews?

I’ve no wish to argue it either jd, but like you can’t help make a few more points.

After the fiasco with the psychiatrists, it is my understanding that Hubbard withheld any and all technology. Now, who would be the scientists who could write peer reviews?

If the technology works and has health benefits then the ethics of keeping it secret are somewhat questionable, as is the fact that a sci-fi writer developed it decades ago and yet no one in a very active scientific field worldwide has done so since.

Now, you, on the other hand, what first-hand knowledge do you have?

I’ve suffered from depression and so might be the only person on this thread who has firsthand experience.

 

[inocente]

To make matter’s worse, all of your supposed evidence is based on rumor, as it all insists, with a little truth mixed in. Rumor. If you want some real stuff, we must take this off-line. Our mods will not take kindly to religion-bashing, even though, per se, it is not a “religion,” in any sense of the word, in my opinion. Now, if our mod says it’s OK, I can give you the real snitty. Not junk rumor.

The only rumor was where I was careful to say “it’s said he popped psychotropic drugs”. Everywhere else I gave citations - an official UK government report isn’t “junk rumor”. Surely it’s not against CAF rules to cite evidence? If there’s evidence for dianetics then I’m all ears and can’t offhand see why the mod would oppose it being discussed openly, but it would deserve its own thread.

I am somewhat sure that they do not attempt to “treat” the more serious disorders, such as schizophrenia, neuroses, and psycho-physical pathologies.

Not according to CBS:

*Wollersheim claims that these secret, upper-level teachings pushed him over the edge. “At the OT3 level initiation you discover you’re not one person. You’re hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, maybe even a million aliens and they’re fighting for control of the body. You no longer know who you are anymore," he says. "I went completely nuts.”

Asked if he ended up getting psychiatric help, he says he eventually did.

Wollersheim sued the church. A California court found he had a bi-polar personality, and that the church “coerced Wollersheim into continuing ‘auditing’ although his sanity was repeatedly threatened by this practice.” After decades of appeals and countersuits, the church paid $8.6 million to end the case. - cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/25/48hours/main2124568_page3.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody*

Or a support group for schizophrenia:

Recently, the story states, "David Figueroa, president of the group’s [Scientology] Florida chapter and a practicing Scientologist, states that mental illness, as defined by the psychiatric community, does not exist. For instance, he says, bucking the world’s medical textbooks, “there is zero amount of proof that schizophrenia exists as a singular mental illness.” - schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/001614.html

Didn’t do a full authentication on that quote, but Figueroa is a Scientology official, see here, who claims bin Laden became a terrorist due to psychiatry:

“Whether it’s a person who’s gonna carry a bomb into a marketplace, you know, in a crowded, inner city area, or whether he’s gonna jump on a plane and fly into the World Trade Center, it’s documented that these guys are on some form of psychiatric drug, and/or have psychiatric influence in their backgrounds.” - zimbio.com/Scientology/articles/xDuS9IyAhM5/Scientology+PSYCHIATRISTS+Blame+9+11+Attacks

Now, you have to ask yourself a few questions: first, why does the industry still embrace electro-shock therapy, when it knows that it will probably inflict more harm than good?

I’ve only known firsthand one case where electroshock (ECT) was used - a middle-aged Christian friend who fell into such a severe depression after giving birth to her third child that she was on 24/7 suicide watch. The medics used ECT as a last resort. It pulled her out of her zombie-like state which gave them a window in which to use more conventional treatments. Afterward she was well enough to see friends and gradually she recognizably returned to her old self.

Ethically ETC is controversial – it’s not known why it works, by itself the effect isn’t sustained, and it can affect long-term memory. But in her case it’s hard for me to see how her children would still have a mother without it.

Second, why does the industry default to drugs to assuage bi-polar syndrome - when they are known to be an ineffective curative treatment?

Not having a clue as to why I was feeling so down, I phoned the doctor. The receptionist must have known from my voice that an immediate appointment was needed. The doctor asked me questions (later I found them in the DSM) and diagnosed mild depression. She told me her husband had also had depression and gave me a choice of psychotherapy (last thing I wanted was to talk endlessly) or the drug she had prescribed him, one of the older anti-depressants amitriptolene, to speed up recovery. It appears to work by tickling the body into stabilizing the brain chemistry, similar to treatment for some types of bi-polar disorder. It works.

And third, why does the industry turn more people into patients that should not be patients than any other medical profession?

Certainly general practitioners should give up prescribing Valium to everyone and her dog, and Freud has more than a few things to answer for, but misuse is not an excuse to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I have close relatives that are Scientologists and close relatives that are in the psychiatric field. So, this is a constant debate around these parts!

No doubt faith healing etc. can have beneficial effects and can also do harm. Scientific health care does at least try to work from evidence, and having suffered and been helped out of a mild form of the terror of depression I’m grateful for that.

If and when Scientology can provide evidence instead of theory it might be worth looking at, but no point falling out over it.

 

[marica_mandic]

One of the topics I’m interested in is psychiatry, but one question that has been plaguing me for ages is the way the soul works with mental illness. If the soul plays such a profound role in consciousness and free will, why do psychiatric disorders, which should only affect the material aspect of though (the brain), cause such a major change in the way one’s will, body, and mind function? Wouldn’t the soul be able to override the mental disorder? Or at least the consciousness not be affected too badly from it?

I think that soul can help by illness , mental or body illness.
Soul is our the main part of man,and who use soul in good direction heal body and mental part of man.

 

[JDaniel]

The only rumor was where I was careful to say “it’s said he popped psychotropic drugs”. Everywhere else I gave citations - an official UK government report isn’t “junk rumor”. Surely it’s not against CAF rules to cite evidence? If there’s evidence for dianetics then I’m all ears and can’t offhand see why the mod would oppose it being discussed openly, but it would deserve its own thread.

Inocente:

Sorry it has taken a while to respond to you: work had to come first. But, let’s think these things through, shall we? The first item is obvious: where did I ever use the word: “junk” with regard to the word, “rumor?” Second, Islam contains errors, yet CAF will strongly instruct you not to disparage that religion. Third, although an “official UK government report” will no doubt contain some elements of truth in it, just as do all “official US government reports,” it is not an exhaustive study of the practice of Scientology, is it? Fourth, Dianetics was produced PRIOR to the conflating of the so-called Science of Mental Health with Religion. That is clear even from the stuff you glossed over from your internet search.

Not according to CBS:

*Wollersheim claims that these secret, upper-level teachings pushed him over the edge. “At the OT3 level initiation you discover you’re not one person. You’re hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, maybe even a million aliens and they’re fighting for control of the body. You no longer know who you are anymore," he says. "I went completely nuts.”

Asked if he ended up getting psychiatric help, he says he eventually did.

Wollersheim sued the church. A California court found he had a bi-polar personality, and that the church “coerced Wollersheim into continuing ‘auditing’ although his sanity was repeatedly threatened by this practice.” After decades of appeals and countersuits, the church paid $8.6 million to end the case. - *

Compare this one instance with the thousands upon thousands of instances of the psychiatric incarceration of the so-called “feeble” in asylums. Compare it with the thousands of instances of more than likely unnecessary electro-shock treatments. Compare it to the thousands upon thousands of cases of poorly prescribed psychotropic drug treatments by the medical practitioners of Psychiatry.

huffingtonpost.com/bruce-e-levine/has-psychiatry-earned-its_b_70308.html

Or a support group for schizophrenia:

Recently, the story states, "David Figueroa, president of the group’s [Scientology] Florida chapter and a practicing Scientologist, states that mental illness, as defined by the psychiatric community, does not exist. For instance, he says, bucking the world’s medical textbooks, “there is zero amount of proof that schizophrenia exists as a singular mental illness.” - schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/001614.html

Didn’t do a full authentication on that quote, but Figueroa is a Scientology official

Yes, and anyone associated with the Bush regime is no doubt a bad person – merely because of being part of the regime.

I’ve only known firsthand one case where electroshock (ECT) was used - a middle-aged Christian friend who fell into such a severe depression after giving birth to her third child that she was on 24/7 suicide watch. The medics used ECT as a last resort. It pulled her out of her zombie-like state which gave them a window in which to use more conventional treatments. Afterward she was well enough to see friends and gradually she recognizably returned to her old self.

It might not be a bad idea for you to read up on the history of electro-shock treatment worldwide.

continued . . .

 

[JDaniel]

continuation . . .

Ethically ETC is controversial – it’s not known why it works, by itself the effect isn’t sustained, and it can affect long-term memory. But in her case it’s hard for me to see how her children would still have a mother without it.

Of course, here, you may be right. But, then again, you might be wrong.

Not having a clue as to why I was feeling so down, I phoned the doctor. The receptionist must have known from my voice that an immediate appointment was needed. The doctor asked me questions (later I found them in the DSM) and diagnosed mild depression. She told me her husband had also had depression and gave me a choice of psychotherapy (last thing I wanted was to talk endlessly) or the drug she had prescribed him, one of the older anti-depressants amitriptolene, to speed up recovery. It appears to work by tickling the body into stabilizing the brain chemistry, similar to treatment for some types of bi-polar disorder. It works.

Good. It worked for you. However, I have posted back and forth with a young person, on CAF, who had severe BPD. The powerful drugs he was taking were of no avail. (You can check back through my posts to find the thread for yourself.) Further, my ex-gf has bi-polar disorder. Her drugs do not even help her go to sleep. She has to drink some rum, then, maybe, she can fall asleep. Of course, then, she has trouble waking up in the morning.

Certainly general practitioners should give up prescribing Valium to everyone and her dog, and Freud has more than a few things to answer for, but misuse is not an excuse to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

You are not looking at the big picture. To be sure, I am not talking about annihilating the whole system. But, there are far more than the “few” aberrations you are ascribing to it. Don’t you think?

No doubt faith healing etc. can have beneficial effects and can also do harm. Scientific health care does at least try to work from evidence, and having suffered and been helped out of a mild form of the terror of depression I’m grateful for that.

I am very happy for you. Truly. At least you were not the subject of an experiment! (Thank God.)

If and when Scientology can provide evidence instead of theory it might be worth looking at, but no point falling out over it.

The problem with that is, they have thousands of cases of “evidence.” Their laboratory has been watered down to common neuroses, and other common afflictions, such as angst, nervousness, alcoholism, drugs, parentally caused syndromes, parentally caused syndromes found not to be parentally caused, habits, low self-esteem problems, adjustment problems, societal problems, so-called attention deficit problems, touch deficit problems, etc., IOW, problems of many everyday people that otherwise would not be correctly treated, or even treated at all, by the psychiatric community.

Again, as I stated earlier, I am not a proponent of that culture. But, for everyday, common ailments they are probably more effective than your average psychotherapist. And, as I said to you earlier, I will not disparage Scientology, per se, but, only those aspects of their beliefs that Christianity, and humanity, disagree with. That said, I will conclude with a statement that they are no different than any other group trying to purport a set of ideas. Christians are still vilified and martyred in many places on the planet. Jews are still vilified and martyred. Some of the vilification and martyrdom is due to our systems of belief. Some, on the other hand, is due to overly eager, well-intentioned adherents who need to be reigned in.

I would not become a practicing Scientologist: for many reasons. But most have little to do with the hearsay and rumor prevalent on the internet.

God bless,
jd