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ProVobis
Guest
Yes, but that’s called “working the crowd.” Soloists do it; pianists do it; organists do it. Politicians certainly do it. Is this what’s desired?
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Tigg
Guest
I am so surprised that another thread was merged with this one as I thought that all that could be said about this subject had been said! Obviously, this issue is one which hits a sore spot with many, regardless of where your convictions lie. I am heartened to see that the poll shows a wide majority who disapprove of this practice.
Do I understand your comment? That the justification for the clapping is because those applauding have actually separated the recessional hymn from the sacred liturgy in their minds? This makes no sense to me as we have gathered for the *sole *purpose to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass from its beginning to its end. Is it not splitting hairs to say, “well……the Mass has technically been dismissed….” so let’s now set aside the essence of praise for the Almighty to show approval for each other in general bonhomie??
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Tigg
Guest
I do believe you’ve hit upon the magic word and the reason for the disparity. Is the Mass for the purpose of fellowship or is that better served in the narthex over coffee and donuts? I love my community of worshippers and will affirm, approve and laud them in the proper setting. But for some of us, adoration and worship is paramount and we, like Moses, must take off our sandals because we “stand on holy ground.” We keep our eyes and focus on the ends of the Mass (remember ACTS?) and feel uncomfortable when the emphasis strays to something else. If you look at some of these posts, you will see that even those being applauded feel uncomfortable.
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rondirect
Guest
“Working the crowd?” What? The music ministry, the priest delivering his homily do their best to provide an “excellent worship experience.” If it’s “working the crowd” in your mind, well, I guess it is, but I don’t agree with your choice of words.
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rondirect
Guest
I don’t care if they clap for a well delivered homily, a well delivered speech on the DSA or whatever. If you include the closing song as part of the end of mass, so be it. Mass is a celebration for the glory of God. I think this whole thing about applause is “splitting hairs!”
If the poll was taken in my church, the result would be the opposite. It occurs after all our 7 masses per weekend and no one complains. It’s much to do about nothing.
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ProVobis
Guest
I guess that goes both ways then. “Excellent worship experience”? Really? The Mass is our obligation. I’m wondering if we haven’t lost sight of what Mass is.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
ron ron ron. You are all over the map buddy!
First you say that it is not part of the Mass and that you agree in the Mass there should not be applause. Then you say that in the Mass it is ok? You say “it is not a big deal” but then you continue to defend it. You also mention polling people at a Mass about it!? As if that carries some sort of theological or liturgical weight.
If you read the thread you will see that in light of what the Mass is, and in light of what applause is, and in light of what has been written and asked by Popes then you surly can see that while we should not wage some kind of liturgical war against those poor people clapping out of a misplaced joy, or obligation, or respect. We should heed what is being said. We should look at why the Pope said what he said about the liturgy and ask ourselves why that would not apply to the sacred space a mere seconds after the end of the Mass. But it is also worth noting that there are directives for the sacred space BEYOND the time of Mass. There should be silence before Mass. This is mandated. But it is not the Mass itself. There should be silence after Mass as well. It does not say after clapping…
It is you who have used applause in other parts of the mass as examples of justified adulation.
Do you really think about what the Mass is? About the sacrifice, about Jesus’s broken bloodied body. About the solemn, about the supernatural and very real presence of God Himself.
Clapping for a song or the people singing it. Wow.
Perhaps part of the liturgy would be to have them bow to the audience. It would only be polite, don’t you think. Or perhaps stay for an encore? Is that what Mass is? An entertainment?
We know what pope benedict thinks. Do you have any writings from Pope’s defending the practice?
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Uh, 2000 years of the liturgical Church, Pope Benedict, numerous bishops… etc.
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LisaA
Guest
yes.,.Our wonderful music director works very hard to provide a wonderful and inspiring selection of liturgically appropriate music. She HATES when we applaud as she feels the Mass is not a performance by a few for an audience of the many. We used to do a Gloria that involved clapping (previous Music Director!) and foot stomping. I felt I was on the set of Hee Haw. So this is clearly one person’s opinion.
We also have this new tradition (new priest) of greeting each other in the pews before the Priest processes in. Given that we usually sit in the same place, shake hands with the same people and will also pass the peace later in the Mass this seems so unnecessary. Then we are told “Quiet your hearts for the Mass” so we suddenly transition into silence although difficult to regain your prayerful state having greeted and shaken hands with six or seven people. UGH…
Lisa
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rondirect
Guest
First, let’s understand something: I truly appreciate your comments and your defending this issue. I defend it because I believe it [applause] is “not a big deal.” I’m just voicing my opinion as you are. I will agree that the poll is an indication of what we, the people who like to voice our opinions on sites like this one, think.ron ron ron. You are all over the map buddy!
First you say that it is not part of the Mass and that you agree in the Mass there should not be applause. Then you say that in the Mass it is ok? You say “it is not a big deal” but then you continue to defend it. You also mention polling people at a Mass about it!? As if that carries some sort of theological or liturgical weight.
If you read the thread you will see that in light of what the Mass is, and in light of what applause is, and in light of what has been written and asked by Popes then you surly can see that while we should not wage some kind of liturgical war against those poor people clapping out of a misplaced joy, or obligation, or respect. We should heed what is being said. We should look at why the Pope said what he said about the liturgy and ask ourselves why that would not apply to the sacred space a mere seconds after the end of the Mass. But it is also worth noting that there are directives for the sacred space BEYOND the time of Mass. There should be silence before Mass. This is mandated. But it is not the Mass itself. There should be silence after Mass as well. It does not say after clapping…
It is you who have used applause in other parts of the mass as examples of justified adulation.
Do you really think about what the Mass is? About the sacrifice, about Jesus’s broken bloodied body. About the solemn, about the supernatural and very real presence of God Himself.
Clapping for a song or the people singing it. Wow.
Perhaps part of the liturgy would be to have them bow to the audience. It would only be polite, don’t you think. Or perhaps stay for an encore? Is that what Mass is? An entertainment?
We know what pope benedict thinks. Do you have any writings from Pope’s defending the practice?
However, it is almost overwhelming that everyone who has posted here say that their church does it. To me, that says a lot.
There are so many diverse nationalities who are Catholic. Many hispanic, black, Asian people worship with an over abundant joy with clapping along to the songs. Our hispanic community praises God in such joy and clapping along with the Gloria! How can we tell these classes of people to stop the joy with clapping which is there way to praise God to the fullest? We cannot, we cannot change their culture.
I don’t remember saying that I disagree with applause during mass, but do remember saying that I find no fault in it. We will have to agree to disagree. I cannot change your mind (I am not trying to do so) and you cannot change mine.
Of course I know what the mass is! I think it is unfair for you to say that because I do not agree with you regarding applause or clapping during mass. Yes, it’s about the bloodied body of Christ, but it is because of this bloodied body we are saved. Mass to me (and to some who have posted here) is not a time to be solemn. It is a time to be joyous and praise God for what He has done for us.
For that, we give joyous praise and if clapping and applause shows that, let it be, IMO. Peace, my friend.
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rondirect
Guest
Applause does not always equate to a performance alone. The greeting tradition in my church is over 30 years old! Welcome!
Our wonderful music director works very hard to provide a wonderful and inspiring selection of liturgically appropriate music. She HATES when we applaud as she feels the Mass is not a performance by a few for an audience of the many. We used to do a Gloria that involved clapping (previous Music Director!) and foot stomping. I felt I was on the set of Hee Haw. So this is clearly one person’s opinion.
We also have this new tradition (new priest) of greeting each other in the pews before the Priest processes in. Given that we usually sit in the same place, shake hands with the same people and will also pass the peace later in the Mass this seems so unnecessary. Then we are told “Quiet your hearts for the Mass” so we suddenly transition into silence although difficult to regain your prayerful state having greeted and shaken hands with six or seven people. UGH…
Lisa
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LisaA
Guest
Honestly, not to be argumentative, we have greeters at the door who say “Welcome!” as the people enter the Narthex. If they are new or seem confused we have someone there to answer questions. We have a social period after Mass. I assure you our parish has a very good reputation as being friendly and welcoming.
My point was that the greeting before Mass is to a great extent pointless since we are greeting the same people every week and 30 minutes later will be passing the peace. Further it’s disruptive in having people engage in small talk, then be told to be quiet, then the Mass begins. Many people come in to pray and wish to be quiet and meditative prior to the Mass. Just my (and many others’ in the Parish) opinion that Mass is for celebrating the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, of finding Christ in the Word and in the Eucharist. Social time which is very important to our Parish is before or after the Mass.
Again not be be argumentative but the issue I have with applause is that there isn’t really a policy or guidance so sometimes we applaud, sometimes we don’t. We obviously never applaud a great homily although we might tell the priest afterwards. We don’t applaud the consecration although that is a far more important moment than the final song. Then there is the issue of people making announcements after Mass…sometimes we applaud, sometimes not. I just wish there were some guidance.
Lisa
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
It is not about opinion ron, it is about what we are told and asked to do. We are asked to have silence. We are asked to be reverent. And we are directed to this by People with prominence in the Church. Those who establish what our liturgy should be. Yes, many might not understand. Many parishes might indeed go against the wishes of the Church. And, honestly, it is not our biggest battle we must fight. But Ron, we have been asked for silence, we have been asked to be silent within the liturgy and before it and after it. Surly you wish to do as the Church requests? Right? Surly you can read Pope Benedict And the GRIM and come away with more than just "well he didn’t SAY directly after the Mass… I’m sure you can understand that as Catholics Obedience is called for even when we may not find it to be our taste. Again, this has been addressed. Can you not at least acknowledge that it is not wished for buy the Church? If we should make a huge deal about it and stamp it out is probably something we would agree on. But just because a group of people do something does not make it correct. If your position was, “well yes, it should not happen, but in the scheme of things it is quite inconsequential” I could understand your position. But when you have the writing and direction of the Church and your opinion goes against that? Well that is when we have a disagreement. There are many things I am directed to do that don’t fit what I like, yet I do them.
An example.
In my diocese the last bishop declared that we should make the Eucharist a Procession and so we should process from back to front. It is still done this way in my diocese. It is theologically not somthing I agree with but even more so it is logistically something I do not agree with. So the last rows go first and we all kneel. Here is the problem. When you line up from the front pews to the back you can see when your time to stand up is. You can pray (or sing if you wish) to prepare yourself for the Eucharist and use the eye’s God gave you to see when your turn is. BUT when you go from back to front, you never know when your time is to stand up and get in line so you are always looking backward with glances over your shoulder, it is hard to pray because you cannot concentrate while always having to check to see how close you are to going up.
Now, I disagree with this practice. Do I disobey and in my zeal for the Eucharist make a beeline for the priest anytime I wish? no. I obey.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Which one is it ron?The operative words here are: “within the liturgy.” The closing song is outside the liturgy and optional. Therefore, clapping along with the song and applause for the joy of mass and for our Lord Jesus is a CELEBRATORY manner does not fall within the quote you provided. ** Although mass is a celebration of our Lord, I do agree with you about applause within the liturgy itself,** unless the priest calls for it at special times. Why are we so upset with the joy that people show? But that’s not good enough of a reason, so we bring in the all other excuses like it being disruptive to those who want to pray!
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Why are Masses segregated? Why are they not Universal? In America there is not an excuse for this. And it was not ever an issue before the Promulgation of the Mass as we know it today. Post Vatican two has seen a lot of experimentation and thankfully that is ebbing. But one thing was almost universal in the oddities that were attempted at Masses. It was done under the guise of “culture” so forgive me if I am a little gunshy about that argument. Let’s all gather around the altar hold hands and sing kumbaya and call it “culture” or in my old town, the 11 o clock Mass.
I am so sick of the ideas that we must be different. Especially at Mass, especially as CATHOLICS. We are drilled that our name means “Universal” (it doesn’t really) but then we segregate our parishes and Masses. An African american parish is a shame. Perhaps it is necessary because of our society and country but it is a failure on us as a people, a nation and a faith. A spanish mass? Folk mass, TEEN MASS for pete sake!!! We have a special Mass for TEENS that is only for 7 YEARS of life!!! Where is my Mass? You know the one for 35-40 year old Catholics that just want orthodoxy?
The culture thing is a dead issue anyway. America is a melting Pot. Our only culture is that we have no culture.
But here is the biggest newsflash. I have been to an Italian Mass. A Mexican Mass and an Asian Mass. I have friends who have been to Mass with mother Theresa in India, or in Namibia with the Peace Corps. And none of them describe a happy clappy american Mass with irreverence after the Mass.
Of course this was never an issue when the Mass was all done in one language…
Actually, it was sometimes, but never to the ridiculous extent it has been taken to.
And one final thing,
The idea that we must entertain at mass, or that we should have different flavors or cultures at Mass is a direct result of living in Protestant America.
No matter if it is a copying of a Southern Baptist Revival or a non denom mega Church, if the Eucharist, if the sacrifice, if the Tradition, if the Liturgy, if GOD HIMSELF, in the flesh is not enough then we will always lose the battle. And sadly, many Catholics do not understand who they are meeting in their body when they go to Mass. Many Catholics do not understand the True Presence. That is what we need to educate. Because if you really see the God you ingested, if you really understand what His Body was broken for, if you really see what His Blood was spilled for, you would not clap for some 2 bit, part time, musicians.
Like I said earlier. If you have ever heard true beauty in Music at Mass, If you feel the need to clap after a Good Friday communion service, If you stood up at the end of Passion of the Christ and jovially clapped, you didn’t get it.
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rondirect
Guest
whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/applause-at-mass/Why are Masses segregated? Why are they not Universal? In America there is not an excuse for this. And it was not ever an issue before the Promulgation of the Mass as we know it today. Post Vatican two has seen a lot of experimentation and thankfully that is ebbing. But one thing was almost universal in the oddities that were attempted at Masses. It was done under the guise of “culture” so forgive me if I am a little gunshy about that argument. Let’s all gather around the altar hold hands and sing kumbaya and call it “culture” or in my old town, the 11 o clock Mass.
I am so sick of the ideas that we must be different. Especially at Mass, especially as CATHOLICS. We are drilled that our name means “Universal” (it doesn’t really) but then we segregate our parishes and Masses. An African american parish is a shame. Perhaps it is necessary because of our society and country but it is a failure on us as a people, a nation and a faith. A spanish mass? Folk mass, TEEN MASS for pete sake!!! We have a special Mass for TEENS that is only for 7 YEARS of life!!! Where is my Mass? You know the one for 35-40 year old Catholics that just want orthodoxy?
The culture thing is a dead issue anyway. America is a melting Pot. Our only culture is that we have no culture.
But here is the biggest newsflash. I have been to an Italian Mass. A Mexican Mass and an Asian Mass. I have friends who have been to Mass with mother Theresa in India, or in Namibia with the Peace Corps. And none of them describe a happy clappy american Mass with irreverence after the Mass.
Of course this was never an issue when the Mass was all done in one language…
Actually, it was sometimes, but never to the ridiculous extent it has been taken to.
And one final thing,
The idea that we must entertain at mass, or that we should have different flavors or cultures at Mass is a direct result of living in Protestant America.
No matter if it is a copying of a Southern Baptist Revival or a non denom mega Church, if the Eucharist, if the sacrifice, if the Tradition, if the Liturgy, if GOD HIMSELF, in the flesh is not enough then we will always lose the battle. And sadly, many Catholics do not understand who they are meeting in their body when they go to Mass. Many Catholics do not understand the True Presence. That is what we need to educate. Because if you really see the God you ingested, if you really understand what His Body was broken for, if you really see what His Blood was spilled for, you would not clap for some 2 bit, part time, musicians.
Like I said earlier. If you have ever heard true beauty in Music at Mass, If you feel the need to clap after a Good Friday communion service, If you stood up at the end of Passion of the Christ and jovially clapped, you didn’t get it.
Not alone here. I understand your obedience and truly appreciate that. But, I also believe that the applause thing is being painted with a wide stroke of the brush that many cultures and traditions will not follow. The cultural thing is not a dead issue. I am not talking about separate cultural masses in America, but those around the world. And, yes, I don’t like it when people say that we are protestant because of actions we are embarrassed of.
I’ve been nothing but respectful of your posts, but it seems like you are not of mine; but, that does not matter. I do understand what I ingested, what His body was broken for and His blood spilled for and I will still find no fault in applause for the 2 bit, part time musicians. How can you say that? I know you didn’t miss the Gospel of love and judgment. How about building up the body of Christ? I’m tired! Peace, brother.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
LOL
Now who is splitting hairs ron? First, You said that the Pope was speaking about Mass, and made the point that it was after Mass. Now this gem.
The definition of hair splitting.
What liturgical weight does this bear?
Are you saying a “Cardinal” was wrong? Where are all the Popes and liturgical documents supporting you position?
You found a site on the internet. Good job. It would appear that the authors are mostly students and hardly carry the weight of a man who was Pope, was one of the greatest modern theologians, helped write VII documents and had authority. Ironically the same arguments are made from the liberals who think Pope francis is for the homosexual agenda. Never mind that while Cardinal he said that homosexual adoption was Child abuse. Yawn, it gets old.
So the author goes to a Parish that is not perfect liturgically speaking, Don’t we all.
Did you care to comment on the link, or did you just want me to read it?
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Ok but is that “culture” my 90 percent white parish? Or my old parishes? No. It was just a regular American, English speaking, bad music playing Mass. WIth a concert at the end.
If you are african american or hispanic ron, we can debate that “culture” but if not, you are really quite off base when invoking the “culture” argument.
Seriously though. If you believe your parish to be liturgically perfect and so cultural. PM which one, I’ll make a trip. I have been to many many parishes all over the country. The south, the west, the east… Bring it on.
PS This won’t last long if I post my arguments and take the time to respond with the depth I am and you just post links…
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rondirect
Guest
Give me a break…I posted one link. I also edited my previous post. I hit enter by mistake. “Debate,” “Bring it on,” “argument?” Wow.
I said it before: We will have to agree to disagree. I am done, you can grind your ax with someone else. You are sounding so bitter and I have tried to be truly accepting and kind to all you had to say. If you heard something different, I apologize. And again I say, peace and truly mean it.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
You are killing me smalls.
Of course you are not alone. I know that by the thunderous applause at some Masses!!!
Can you at least acknowledge something? At least say that we all could use a reminder of reverence and liturgy? Or out of pride will you just defend every thing any parish does?
How about this. I gave a little, now it is your turn. I gave when I said that it is not something we should go to war over. Perhaps you should give and recognize that it is not really appropriate. I notice you acknowledge that it is OBEDIENT to observe the silence after Mass. Ron, we are all called to obedience. And many, perhaps like yourself, may not have even been aware of what you should be obedient to. I am not advocating a crusade here. I am not saying that people should be reprimanded. I am saying that it is obvious based on writings, history, and God Himself, that we should be reverent, and solemn during Mass.
I am sorry you feel I was not respectful. If you are defensive, perhaps it is because you feel that your sincere beliefs were attacked. If that is the case, I am sorry. But if you stopped for a minute and really thought about God and the Mass and the sacrifice, and what we are clapping for. Then I am not sorry. good. Don’t let your pride prevent you from gaining knowledge even if it is begrudgingly. I have a good friend who says to me whenever we argue, “perhaps you need to sit in front of the Blessed Sacrament for a while and mull this over” He is right. And although I roll my eyes and become annoyed at him for always ending our debates like this, he is right. And I do, honestly, sit in front of the Blessed Sacrament and Pray about it. And you know what. He is usually right. (I hope he never reads this)
Here is an article I am sure was posted earlier in this thread. I don’t know if you have read all the thread, or seen all the links but it is worth it to go back through and do. I know you are busy, I know you are annoyed. Consider it a lenten sacrifice.
Here is one.
ncregister.com/blog/dan-burke/the-devils-war-on-silence-in-mass
From the GIRM
If you could give me two things. That this is directing something even before the Mass begins, so yes, there are rules about Mass that pertain outside of the actual liturgy.
and second, that this is an area that many parishes fail. perhaps even yours. I know mine does.
As the great theologian Gaga said:
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