MERGED: Applauding after Mass Poll / Why?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Give me a break…I posted one link. I also edited my previous post. I hit enter by mistake. “Debate,” “Bring it on,” “argument?” Wow.

I said it before: We will have to agree to disagree. I am done, you can grind your ax with someone else. You are sounding so bitter and I have tried to be truly accepting and kind to all you had to say. If you heard something different, I apologize. And again I say, peace and truly mean it.

I am not bitter at all and forgive me but I was under the impression that we were discussing and debating an issue. You have been respectful and I appreciate the effort and even understand some of your points. CAF is a different animal. As far as internet discussion boards, it is well moderated and quite tame. But you need thick skin if you are going to be active in conversations. I apologise to you that you have taken my responses as mean spirited or. They are not meant that way and I am being quite jovial.

I shoot from the hip ron, I do this in real life and especially when it involves the effort of typing. I, like your screen name, am direct. And that can rub people the wrong way.

I apologize.

Even if you don’t realize it. The next time we both go to Mass, we both will think about things differently. The only difference is that I will not be tempted to “clap”

 

[rondirect]

Hoosier, it’s late and I have read your posts a number of times. I apologized and so did you if we made each other feel badly. Thank you. When I get a chance, I will respond to your posts individually with descriptive notes for each paragraph…time I really don’t have. In the meantime, the link I sent you speaks of my feelings in a nut shell. And, BTW, I agree with you on some points as well, especially silence before mass as people pray and get ready for the Holy Sacrifice of Mass. Let’s leave it at that for now. Peace.

 

[seaton2005]

Why are Masses segregated? Why are they not Universal? In America there is not an excuse for this. And it was not ever an issue before the Promulgation of the Mass as we know it today. Post Vatican two has seen a lot of experimentation and thankfully that is ebbing. But one thing was almost universal in the oddities that were attempted at Masses. It was done under the guise of “culture” so forgive me if I am a little gunshy about that argument. Let’s all gather around the altar hold hands and sing kumbaya and call it “culture” or in my old town, the 11 o clock Mass.

I am so sick of the ideas that we must be different. Especially at Mass, especially as CATHOLICS. We are drilled that our name means “Universal” (it doesn’t really) but then we segregate our parishes and Masses. An African american parish is a shame. Perhaps it is necessary because of our society and country but it is a failure on us as a people, a nation and a faith. A spanish mass? Folk mass, TEEN MASS for pete sake!!! We have a special Mass for TEENS that is only for 7 YEARS of life!!! Where is my Mass? You know the one for 35-40 year old Catholics that just want orthodoxy?

The culture thing is a dead issue anyway. America is a melting Pot. Our only culture is that we have no culture.

But here is the biggest newsflash. I have been to an Italian Mass. A Mexican Mass and an Asian Mass. I have friends who have been to Mass with mother Theresa in India, or in Namibia with the Peace Corps. And none of them describe a happy clappy american Mass with irreverence after the Mass.

Of course this was never an issue when the Mass was all done in one language…

Actually, it was sometimes, but never to the ridiculous extent it has been taken to.

And one final thing,

The idea that we must entertain at mass, or that we should have different flavors or cultures at Mass is a direct result of living in Protestant America.

No matter if it is a copying of a Southern Baptist Revival or a non denom mega Church, if the Eucharist, if the sacrifice, if the Tradition, if the Liturgy, if GOD HIMSELF, in the flesh is not enough then we will always lose the battle. And sadly, many Catholics do not understand who they are meeting in their body when they go to Mass. Many Catholics do not understand the True Presence. That is what we need to educate. Because if you really see the God you ingested, if you really understand what His Body was broken for, if you really see what His Blood was spilled for, you would not clap for some 2 bit, part time, musicians.

Like I said earlier. If you have ever heard true beauty in Music at Mass, If you feel the need to clap after a Good Friday communion service, If you stood up at the end of Passion of the Christ and jovially clapped, you didn’t get it.

Okay, then will you conform to the way my parish celebrates Mass? We do much clapping throughout the service and at times liturgical dancing. You forget that America is diverse (pluralistic) if you will, we have different cultures who celebrate differently. Have you ever heard beautiful music from the Catholic “Lead Me Guide Me” hymnal? It is wonderful - right out of the gospel musical tradition. You can’t listen without clapping your hands or getting out of your seat and raising your arms. It’s a vibrant experience.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Okay, then will you conform to the way my parish celebrates Mass? We do much clapping throughout the service and at times liturgical dancing. You forget that America is diverse (pluralistic) if you will, we have different cultures who celebrate differently. Have you ever heard beautiful music from the Catholic “Lead Me Guide Me” hymnal? It is wonderful - right out of the gospel musical tradition. You can’t listen without clapping your hands or getting out of your seat and raising your arms. It’s a vibrant experience.

You are aware that the Church does not wish that liturgically right?

 

[pnewton]

Words from our Pope Emeritus (written as Cardinal Ratzinger)

I am glad you quoted that. There is a lot of misrepresentation about what was really said. I was going to have to dig out my book and type it. Again.
*
"Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. " (Spirit of the Liturgy p. 198) *

This quote has zero to do with the topic. I think we need remember that the Church has always believed in the principles of authority and subsidiarity. Broad statements about liturgy everywhere are always going to be problematic. If and when there is applause is a matter that can only be understood in the context of the actual time and place. I prefer to go back to an comment made by Cardinal Arinze when he said, “Why do you try and regiment the People of God?” We are not a military organization and we believe in the Holy Spirit. Let the priests each proceed as is best for them.

 

[Tigg]

I am glad you quoted that. There is a lot of misrepresentation about what was really said. I was going to have to dig out my book and type it. Again.
*
"Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. " (Spirit of the Liturgy p. 198) *

This quote has zero to do with the topic. I think we need remember that the Church has always believed in the principles of authority and subsidiarity. Broad statements about liturgy everywhere are always going to be problematic. If and when there is applause is a matter that can only be understood in the context of the actual time and place. I prefer to go back to an comment made by Cardinal Arinze when he said, “Why do you try and regiment the People of God?” We are not a military organization and we believe in the Holy Spirit. Let the priests each proceed as is best for them.

And the point of the original thread was to try to understand why and for whom people are clapping. I have wholeheartedly clapped for a spiritual good such as we see at the Easter Vigil when the priest leads us into welcoming applause over the joy for those who have become believers. I think the quote has much to do with the topic and it seems to me you might be trying to subtlely suggest that the Cardinal is saying it is a movement of the Holy Spirit to praise man at the end of Mass. This would disregard the discomfort and unsettling nature that comes upon some of the congregation. Yes, we believe in authority and subsidiarity but we also (churchmen included) obediently follow documents such as Redemptionis Sacramentum… "The Mystery of the Eucharist is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured.”

 

[ProVobis]

This quote has zero to do with the topic. I think we need remember that the Church has always believed in the principles of authority and subsidiarity. Broad statements about liturgy everywhere are always going to be problematic. If and when there is applause is a matter that can only be understood in the context of the actual time and place. I prefer to go back to an comment made by Cardinal Arinze when he said, “Why do you try and regiment the People of God?” We are not a military organization and we believe in the Holy Spirit. Let the priests each proceed as is best for them.

pn, have you watched this Cardinal Arinze video? Maybe the context is slightly different (or is it at all?) but he addresses applause here (around 3:07)

youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s

 

[Brendan_64]

Yes, we believe in authority and subsidiarity but we also (churchmen included) obediently follow documents such as Redemptionis Sacramentum… "The Mystery of the Eucharist is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured.”

 

[pnewton]

o (churchmen included) obediently follow documents such as Redemptionis Sacramentum… "The Mystery of the Eucharist is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured.”

I have always been leery of the word “churchmen” because it is almost always used when one wants to de-emphasize authority, instead of “priests”, or “bishops.” As to your quoted, I do not see the connection, as any priest that may oversee a parish with the clapping at Mass can still be following Redemptionis Sacramentum. I see no contradiction.

 

[pnewton]

pn, have you watched this Cardinal Arinze video? Maybe the context is slightly different (or is it at all?) but he addresses applause here (around 3:07)

youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s

Yes, but in the same vein that Cardinal Ratzinger does, applauding a performance (a dance, in this case) during Mass. I think we all agree we do not come to Mass to be entertained. I liked what he said around 4:00 about people who spend their time discussing liturgical dance should spend that time saying the Rosary.

I started going back through some of those conferences. The statement about regimenting people like soldiers is on this one at around 3:00.

youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM

I like the saying about leaving others in peace and not in pieces.

 

[seaton2005]

You are aware that the Church does not wish that liturgically right?

Because of the number of parishes that celebrate this way, I don’t believe that your statement is correct.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Because of the number of parishes that celebrate this way, I don’t believe that your statement is correct.

The number could be 99.9 percent and it still would not change the fact that the CHurch has documents and directions on how to say Mass. Period.

The Church is not a democracy where we just say well, if most people do this then it is ok!

By your logic the Church is ok with contraception.

Do you deny that the Church governs the parishes and not the other way around?

You cannot think it is correct all you want. Pope’s and councils and The CHURCH disagree with you. And so do I.

Do you know what the GIRM is? It stands for General Instruction Roman Missal. It is what governs the liturgy. Do you think it should be discarded?

It is not the General SUGGESTION of the Roman Missal.

 

[pnewton]

You are aware that the Church does not wish that liturgically right?

No, I am not. I am aware that it is your opinion. However, it is the bishop who is in charge of the liturgy, not us. The Church has in it both Traditional spirituality and the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, as well as LifeTeen Mass and the Neocatecumenical(?) Way. We all do not have to like the same things, but “liturgical abuse” as often as not is our own sensibilities that are being abused, not the liturgy.

I would say that unless something directly contradicts the GIRM and an exception has not been granted, it is only our opinion that we express.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No, I am not. I am aware that it is your opinion. However, it is the bishop who is in charge of the liturgy, not us. The Church has in it both Traditional spirituality and the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, as well as LifeTeen Mass and the Neocatecumenical(?) Way. We all do not have to like the same things, but “liturgical abuse” as often as not is our own sensibilities that are being abused, not the liturgy.

I would say that unless something directly contradicts the GIRM and an exception has not been granted, it is only our opinion that we express.

If you have a pen, and like to travel I can give you some parishes to go to that will completely change your outlook.

 

[pnewton]

If you have a pen, and like to travel I can give you some parishes to go to that will completely change your outlook.

Just to be clear, I do not care for that stuff at all and am not a fan of any clapping. I say what I do to follow the admonishment of St. Paul in Philippians 2 where we are told that we should look after the interest of others more than our own.

 

[JRRTFAN]

In some parishes, immediately after the final note of the recessional hymn, people break out in spontaneous applause. Does your parish do this? In an effort to understand the reason they are clapping, I’m inviting comments.

Thank you for your charitable response.

Every week, before he begins the homily, my pastor gives us a morning weather report (presumably we do not know the state of the weather from driving to Mass in it). Then he asks for visitors to identify themselves, by bank of pews (there are 6 banks of pews). Applause is expected (by bank of pews) for the recognition of those souls who, though from somewhere else, elected not to commit a mortal sin by missing Mass.

Then he begins the homily. I am not moved. We had exactly ZERO catechumens or candidates in our parish this year. Wonder why.

 

[Kelfa28]

Almost never in our parish. We’re very orthodox and applause is virtually unheard of. There are only a couple of exceptions to this rule.
Every year, the first communion recipients will sing a song on the mother’s day Mass for the moms. It’s really nice because they are allowed to wear their communion dresses and suits that day, despite celebrating first communion the week prior. It happens after the final prayer for Mass and we do applaud them.

Two other times were when the boy scout troops the parish sponsors were receiving badges for religion. Monsgr handed them out himself. And the last was when Monsgr announced he would be staying at our parish indefinitely despite finding out the bishop was sending him to another parish 6 months prior. Everyone was very happy and excited to find that out and it was received with quite the round of applause.

 

[petronus]

error . Sorry .

 

[Irish_Steve]

I think applause is most appropriate when the priest says something like “thank you to the altar boys and the musicians for doing a great job today,”

Otherwise it just seems a little weird to me to just start spontaneously clapping lol.

 

[Mathias64]

Every week, before he begins the homily, my pastor gives us a morning weather report (presumably we do not know the state of the weather from driving to Mass in it). Then he asks for visitors to identify themselves, by bank of pews (there are 6 banks of pews). Applause is expected (by bank of pews) for the recognition of those souls who, though from somewhere else, elected not to commit a mortal sin by missing Mass.

Then he begins the homily. I am not moved. We had exactly ZERO catechumens or candidates in our parish this year. Wonder why.

I am sorry, but this just an opinion. What you need isto go to another mass or another parish. Our pastor starts every homily with a joke. We laugh, clap and rejoice and the RCIA classes are full to the brim every year. The youth program is booming along. We are definitely drifting towards being Charismatic, and I am thrilled!

You just cannot make a blanket statement about clapping being wrong, because it is not. It may be unusual in some cases, but very common in others. I am sure God understands
and he probably chuckles at these exchanges between those who love him.

Don’t we have more to worry about? By the way, Hurray and clap clap clap for the two new Church heroes!