MERGED: Communion during flu season

[Faithdancer]

I think it is silly. During the H1N1 media driven crisis, Our parish instituted that all the EMHCs walk very ceremoniously to the giant hand sanitizes right next to the altar and sanitize. releasing the only form of incense our parish uses, ethyl alcohol…

A

This was always kept in place even after the crisis faded. Now, yup the priest washes in the water, and the EMHCs “wash” in the gel. It is as much a part of our liturgy as the Our Father where everyone holds hands across the ailses.

ah, the traditional Pater Noster human chain…some would argue that since it is formed for prayer, there is divine immunity from the influenza virus. As for me, I’ll take no chances.

 

[pnewton]

One could in the same vein argue that the real presence is superstition.

That would be a matter of dogma.

However, we have many Catholic bishops who change the method of communion to avoid the spread of the flu. So this is clearly not a matter of doctrine.

 

[Zekariya]

That would be a matter of dogma.

However, we have many Catholic bishops who change the method of communion to avoid the spread of the flu. So this is clearly not a matter of doctrine.

Neither is it a matter of superstition. Let all act according to conscience. My Eastern priest has never become sick from consuming the Body and Blood mixed together in the chalice after the service and taught me what I have been saying. Neither you or I have promoted a doctrine. It should be left to one’s conscience.

 

[triumphguy]

One could in the same vein argue that the real presence is superstition.

If Christ touched someone with the flu and you missed Christ’s hand, would you catch the flu? No.

We believe in the Real Presence because of Church teaching. What you are saying exists in no official Church teaching.

 

[triumphguy]

Neither is it a matter of superstition. Let all act according to conscience. My Eastern priest has never become sick from consuming the Body and Blood mixed together in the chalice after the service and taught me what I have been saying. Neither you or I have promoted a doctrine. It should be left to one’s conscience.

That’s wonderful - maybe he gets the flu shot.

 

[Agape_et_Shalom]

Thank you Zekariya for your example of faith. Our western church sometimes gets a little stuck in our secularists culture. Fear the germ equates to fear death which we are taught not to do. It’s all His. I’m sure many the saints in heaven right now are getting a good laugh over this thread.

 

[Zekariya]

Thank you Zekariya for your example of faith. Our western church sometimes gets a little stuck in our secularists culture. Fear the germ equates to fear death which we are taught not to do. It’s all His. I’m sure many the saints in heaven right now are getting a good laugh over this thread.

Thanks!

We believe in the Real Presence because of Church teaching. What you are saying exists in no official Church teaching.

There is no official Church teaching that says that those who receive worthily will get sick. In fact, those that receive unworthily will get sick (in some way or another).

 

[triumphguy]

Thanks!

There is no official Church teaching that says that those who receive worthily will get sick. In fact, those that receive unworthily will get sick (in some way or another).

There’s a difference between magic and the sacraments.
There’s a difference between miracles and magic.
Magic = superstitious belief that if I do X, Y or Z properly then I will get a certain result, and if I don’t get the result then I have been unworthy, or I did not do X, Y, or Z properly.

Miracles are NOT explainable by X, Y, or Z. They are pure grace.

The sacraments are neither miracles nor magic.

The Euchrist is a sacrament - the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Chrst in the form of bread and wine. The sacraments DO NOT depend on the grace/sinlessness of the one performing the sacrament.

This is the doctrine of Ex opere operato. The sacraments depend only on the intention of the one performing the sacraments, not their state of grace. Hence a priest in mortal sin, or schism (and so excommunicated) can still confect a valid Eucharist.

Secondly: if the accidents of the bread and wine are unable to perform as accidents then then we no longer believe in Transubstantiation.

So the Eucharist in the form of wine can still affect an alcoholic.
The wheat in the host can still affect someone with celiac disease.
And bacteria can still attach themselves to the accidents.

This is not denying the wonderful nature of the Eucharist, but affirming it!

The Word came and dwelt among us in the Flesh, and gave us himself forever in the form of bread and wine to sustain us.

If we deny the realities of the accidents of the bread and wine we are in fact denying the power, the awesomeness, the generosity of the Kerygma, where Christ

“who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, 8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:6-11)

Those who say that the accidents remain and can behave as ORDINARY bread and wine actually understand fully the mystery of the Eucharist, and are not less reverent, or less spiritual.

Just read John Chapter 6 where Christ affirms again and again that he is bread (and not just bread but the Bread of Life) to be munched, not some magic wafer to be nibbled.

 

[Zekariya]

The Euchrist is a sacrament - the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Chrst in the form of bread and wine. The sacraments DO NOT depend on the grace/sinlessness of the one performing the sacrament.

This is the doctrine of Ex opere operato. The sacraments depend only on the intention of the one performing the sacraments, not their state of grace. Hence a priest in mortal sin, or schism (and so excommunicated) can still confect a valid Eucharist.

I know this and have never spoken against it.

So the Eucharist in the form of wine can still affect an alcoholic.
The wheat in the host can still affect someone with celiac disease.
And bacteria can still attach themselves to the accidents.

I agree with the first two. The accidents remain and affect those with allergies. One who partakes of the Eucharist in a state of grace will not catch germs from the Eucharist. Germs are not part of the accidents of bread and wine. Do you think that Christ spread germs (in His humanity) while on earth? The accidents of humanity can spread germs just us much as the accidents of bread. However, Christ is God and Man. I am not saying that you can’t get sick from the pews, doors, or shaking hands.

 

[triumphguy]

I know this and have never spoken against it.

I agree with the first two. The accidents remain and affect those with allergies. One who partakes of the Eucharist in a state of grace will not catch germs from the Eucharist. Germs are not part of the accidents of bread and wine. Do you think that Christ spread germs (in His humanity) while on earth? I am not saying that you can’t get sick from the pews, doors, or shaking hands.

We have no idea if Christ got sick.

He was certainly subject to suffering and death.

Bread is bread is bread, and the form of the bread is not affected by the sacrament, therefore …

Anyhoo - this is my understanding of the Eucharist. And you have yours. So, let’s leave it at that.

 

[Zekariya]

We have no idea if Christ got sick.

He was certainly subject to suffering and death.

Bread is bread is bread, and the form of the bread is not affected by the sacrament, therefore …

Anyhoo - this is my understanding of the Eucharist. And you have yours. So, let’s leave it at that.

Sure. Let all follow according to his conscience.

In Christ,
Zekariya

 

[pnewton]

Thank you Zekariya for your example of faith. Our western church sometimes gets a little stuck in our secularists culture. Fear the germ equates to fear death which we are taught not to do. It’s all His. I’m sure many the saints in heaven right now are getting a good laugh over this thread.

No one is “afraid” of germs and it is uncahritable to suggest that those who adhere to Church teaching somehow are more secular or have less faith. Our Western Church? I really think nothing is to be gained by poking a stick at the Western Catholic Church. We are not supposed to be doing that sort of divisive stuff here. The bishops have spoken on the matter in many diocese, using one species because disease can be spread. I have yet to see one thing from the Church that supports the idea of that being free of disease is some Eucharistic miracle. Can you link any Church teaching on the subject?