Merged: Discussion with Jehovah's Whitnesses/Advice Needed Badly - Catholic V Jw's

[Zooey]

Hi:

My name is Jeff Schwehm and I am the President of The Fellowship of Catholic Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses. You might find my website at www.catholicxjw.com and my podcasts at catholicxjw.blogspot.com/

If you need more help, feel free to email me at jschwehm@catholicxjw.com

God’s blessings to you,

Jeff Schwehm

Y’all have got a good source here, people…This site is outstanding.

CM, I would love to lay hands on those books you linked to, but they need a credit card, & I don’t do plastic online. If anybody knows where I could find something of the like with a postal money order–put it up, would you?
I get mostly Mormons, but JWs also…coming to the door. And I am not a believer in hiding in the draperies. (Although there are worse choices, if you aren’t sure you can stand your ground).

 

[chris1888]

Hey guys, I didn’t have access to the internet over the weekend so I just checked my thread and was blown away that so many folk toom the time to reply and help! I’m in work just now so really shouldn’t be online! Oh well!

Just want to say thanks so much for your words of encouragement and the help you posted, means a lot to me! Like I said, I like to think I know my faith quite well, but maybe this episode is God’s way of making me explore it deeper. It is the most important thing in my life and I really should take the time to know it better. It’s just frustrating though when I know I’m right but I just kept getting hit with quotes and scriptures and I didn’t know how to respond! The stuff you guys posted will really help me.

I’ll keep you posted on what happens. And don’t worry I’d never leave the True Church. God Bless.

 

[Liberian]

Chris,

Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruitful time here.

I will echo the respondent who asked you what you were doing dating a woman who did not respect your beliefs. I can appreciate where you don’t have a lot of control over the emotional reactions you have to people, but your will is supposed to be able to control what you do in response to these emotions.

I had a pair of Jehovah’s Witnesses hold Bible studies in my house for three months. At the end of three months they told me that they did not think further studies with me would be productive and so they were not going to waste my time or theirs.

A basic tenet of the Jehovah’s Witness religion is that Jesus is not God. Proofs that this is incorrect come from:

John 20:28-29 – Thomas calls Jesus “My Lord and my God” and Jesus does not correct him. Their answer is that this was a very emotional moment and Jesus did not want to spoil it, but this does not hold water in light of the next two verses …

Revelation 1:17 – John worships Jesus when he sees Him in a vision. Jesus does not stop him.

Revelation 19:10 – John tries to worship an angel and the angel tells him not to. This is also at a very emotional moment but the angel has no difficulty telling John what to do and what not to do.

A second point is that the JW’s do not believe that the Eucharist is really the Body and Blood of Christ. In fact, they have changed their Bibles to read “This means My Body” in the texts at the Last Supper in the Synoptic Gospels. This does considerable violence to the Greek text.

If you want some beliefs shattered, try finding a list of JW prophecies of when the world would end. Every ten years or so, starting about a century ago, the date would pass and they would come up with a new date a bit further into the future. Finally in the 1980’s they came up with the line that the end of the world started in 1914 but nobody noticed.

• Liberian

 

[MyPhilomena]

Hello… want ammunition? Get Jason Evert’s book, Answeing Jehovah’s Witnesses" it is an excellent source and I cannot highly recomend it enough. Ask the jw’s why so many thousands upon thousands are dying for the falsetower because of refusal of life saving treatments of blood. Ask them why they changed John 1:1 to suit them? Ask them why they changed the scriptures to suit their belief, quote to them what the end of the book of Revelation says about anyone who adds or takes away from the Holy Bible. Ask them why they predicted the end times to many times, and failed. Ask them why they do not celebrate the birth of our Lord, and Savior, Jesus Christ. It is not pagan as they claim it is. It is a celebration of the birth of our Lord, and there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with honoring our beloved Savior. ask them why so many families are torn apart when people live for the falsetower, they’ll claim it is because of satan. Its because the falsetower heavily indoctrinates their members. I ought to know, I was one of them! ask them why no one is allowed to question what the society teaches, and ask them why your not allowed to question them about all the needless deaths in that organization. Ask them what they were doing in the UN when they publicly denied it for decades. Ask them why Rutherford built a large house for some of the old prophets, when he thought they’s return. ( one of them in a top hat ) ask them why Charles Taze Russel sold “miracle wheat” ( its all in Jason Evert’s book ) Ask them why the governing body continues to mislead millions! Why they deny the divinity of Christ. Tell them their belief in their 144,000 do not know if they are going to heaven, because no one knows who will make it or not. Their heavenly hope is incorrect the same as their earthly hope. Want more ammo? check out the story online about what they did to a man named Laurence Hughes who’s daughter died at the hands of the falsetower. Let them try to explain that one away. Ask thousands of ex jw’s why they left. ask me. They treated my family as less than civilized human beings because my family is Catholic, and my ex husbands were jw’s and they caused 10 years of hell in my life. From racist comments to publicly humiliatting me and attacking my family because I stood up for my families right to be a Catholic.want to know more? google and you’ll see the thousands of stories out there about what this so called benevolent organization who claims they are a mouth piece for God which they are not, has done to countless families across the world.Do not believe for one second that they teach the truth because they are indoctrinated by a society that is a pack of wolves in sheeps clothing. they do not like to hear the REAL truth and they fear being proved wrong, and they are wrong. They claim to be Christians when in fact they are not. the innocent members in that society are heavily brainwashed, and the governing body is not. they know better. they surround themselves by high priced laywers incase someone sues them, someone like Laurence Hughes who’s daughter Bethany innocently believed every piece of garbage they taught her and lost her precious life as a result of it. Bring that up, and they wont even come close to wanting to discuss with you things like that, They wont talk about Laurence Hughes, they call him an apostate because he dared to speak the truth and expose them for the liars that they are. do not let them intimidate you, arm your self with knowledge and get that book by Jason Evert. Once you expose them for the liars that they are, they wont bother you again. Pray that your gf gets away from them soon. and tell her about Catholicism, and what we believe, and show her the real truth, the Catholic truth.

 

[Rolltide]

Here’s a post I made about the history of the Jehovah’s Witnesses for a JW in another forum:

Ok, what I’m trying to do is establish the fact that there are fundamental problems with the original organization. If that’s true, it makes it more believable, for example, that the NWT may be faulty. I’ll be taking this information and the quotes from the article listed on Catholic Answers (CA) and the Wikipedia (W) article.

Also before we begin, a definition:
Eschatology: a part of theology and philosophy concerned with the final events in the history of the world or the ultimate destiny of human kind, commonly phrased as the end of the world.

Here is what the two articles state, in summary, with my own commentary added in bold:

1. Charles Taze Russell has a crisis of faith as a Congregationalist at age 17, and becomes an agnostic. (He doesn’t believe in God, but doesn’t deny the possibility of God.) This is a young man who is having a crisis of faith, and struggling to find out what he believes.
2. After a few years, he goes to an Adventist meeting. This group, led by William Miller, believed that the world would end in 1843, but it doesn’t So, they mysteriously “find” an error in their calculations and repredict the end of the world in 1844. Again, it doesn’t happen (obviously). Most people leave this movement, believing it to be a fraud, although a few, led by Ellen G. White, go on to found the Seventh-Day Adventists. In other words, the Adventists have TWICE incorrectly predicted the end of the world, causing most (but not all) followers to abandon their ideas.
3. Jonas Wendell gets Russell interested in Bible prophecy again. In 1876, Russell met Nelson H. Barbour and subsequently adopted Barbour’s eschatology. Barbour had predicted a visible return of Christ for 1873, and when that failed to occur, he revised the prediction to 1874. In other words, Russell hooks up with Nelson Barbour, who also incorrectly predicts a visible return for Christ (the end of the world)… twice!
4. Soon after the second disappointment, Barbour’s group decided Christ had returned to the earth in 1874, but invisibly. They differed from most Second Adventists by teaching that all of humankind descended from Adam would be given a chance to live in a paradise Earth. The year 1914 was seen as the final end, marking a forty-year period from 1874. So, his predictions did not come true, and changes his story to claim that Jesus came to Earth “invisibly” in 1874. After forty years on Earth, the world would then finally end in 1914. This is a skeptical claim from someone who had so clearly failed to predict the future. (I’d also like to point out at this point that are several apparations and miracles that Catholics believe, such as Fatima, that did correctly predict the future.)
5. It was this diminished Adventism which influenced Russell. In July 1879, Russell broke with Barbour over the concept of substitutionary atonement and he soon began publishing his own magazine, Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence (now known as The Watchtower). After the break, Russell retained the bulk of Barbour’s eschatological views. He was known as “Pastor Russell” (who took the title “Pastor” even though he never got through high school), and in 1881 formed the legal entity which developed into the non-profit organization: The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania (currently headquartered in New York City). In 1884, it was incorporated with Russell as president. He authored the six-volume series, Studies in the Scriptures. Now, we have Russell breaking with Barbour, but keeping his views about the end of the world (the one thing that he’s clearly been wrong about in the past!). It’s also important to note that Russell doesn’t even have a high school education. Now, this isn’t necessarily bad or uncommon for that day and age, but the less educated are far more susceptible to having people who know more then them talk them into an idea that may be incorrect. They won’t have the knowledge to refute it.
6. Before he got his religious career well underway, Russell promoted what he called “miracle wheat,” which he sold at sixty dollars per bushel. He claimed it would grow five times as well as regular wheat. In fact, it grew slightly less well than regular wheat, as was established in court when Russell was sued. Later he marketed a fake cancer cure and what he termed a “millennial bean”. At first, it might seem like this doesn’t have anything directly to do with his faith, but it demonstrates a pattern. Whether he was actively conning people, or whether he was just gullible (possibly due to his lack of education), he was involved in at least three other false, and possibly corrupt, schemes in his early life.

Part 2 to follow…

 

[Rolltide]

1. Russell taught his followers the non-existence of hell and the annihilation of unsaved people (a doctrine he picked up from the Adventists), the non-existence of the Trinity (he said only the Father, Jehovah, is God), the identification of Jesus with Michael the Archangel, the reduction of the Holy Spirit from a person to a force, the mortality (not immortality) of the soul, and the return of Jesus in 1914. Important here is the idea that Russell is picking up some of his doctrine (including the imminent end of the world) from the Adventists, which were wrong time and time again. If their denomination is wrong, why did Russell adopt ideas from it? If they are right, why isn’t everyone Adventist today?

Comment: Isn’t it interesting how so far, the major ideas of the Jehovah’s Witnesses seem to have nothing to do with the Bible, but the personal opinions of two individuals who clearly have major theological problems of their own?

1. When 1914 had come and gone, with no Jesus in sight, Russell modified his teachings and claimed Jesus had, in fact, returned to Earth, but that his return was invisible. His visible return would come later, but still very soon. It would result in the final conflict between God and the Devil—the forces of good and the forces of evil—in which God would be victorious. This conflict is known to Witnesses as the battle of Armageddon, and just about everything the Witnesses teach centers around this doctrine. Here we have a FIFTH incorrect prediction in the life of Russell. He didn’t make the first four, but he believed in them. Now he becomes more vague, saying that Jesus is still here invisibly, and that the visible return would be “soon”. For someone who is supposedly guided by Jehovah in things like scriptural interpretation, he is making (and following people that are making) a tremendous amount of errors.
2. Russell died on October 31, 1916, and following his death, an editorial committee of five was set up to supervise the writing of the Watch Tower magazine, as set forth in Russell’s Last Will and Testament. On January 6, 1917, Joseph Franklin Rutherford (also known as “Judge Rutherford”) was elected second President of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. New by-laws were passed at the same business meeting that strengthened the President’s authority. Initially, the board of directors for the Watch Tower Society accepted this change, but four of the board members withdrew their support. The June 20, 1917 meeting of the full board of directors tabled, for one month, a proposal to return control of the Society to the board, but Rutherford prevented their attempt. Matters came to a head on July 17, 1917 when the book The Finished Mystery was published. Rutherford announced that he was dismissing the four directors and replacing them with new members. Dissension and schisms ensued in congregations worldwide as a result of these events, and of the consequences of new predictions made for the years 1918, 1920 and 1925. At one time Rutherford claimed Russell was next to Paul as an expounder of the gospel, but later, in an effort to have his writings supplant Russell’s, he let Russell’s books go out of print. It was Rutherford who coined the slogan, “Millions now living will never die.” By it he meant that some people alive in 1914 would still be alive when Armageddon came and the world was restored to a paradise state. The death of Russell causes dissent and schism. The organization itself can’t even keep control of its beliefs. THREE more failed predictions occur, bringing the total to eight (if you include the Adventist predictions). Rutherford tries to seize control and impose his own beliefs on the group. He even has his own books replace those of Russell! All of this causes many people to become disillusioned and leave.
3. In the 1925 prophecy, Rutherford stated that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the prophets would return to Earth, and so he prepared for them a mansion named Beth Sarim in San Diego, California. He moved into this mansion (where he died in 1942) and bought an automobile with which to drive the resurrected patriarchs around. The Watch Tower Society quietly sold Beth Sarim years later to cover up an embarrassing moment in their history, namely another failed prophecy. This paragraph pretty much speaks for itself. Try searching for Beth Sarim on the internet and see what you find. I can provide you with links, articles, and pictures if necessary. Also note that Watchtower Publications have continuously changed their story regarding Beth Sarim over the years (to cover up their mistaken prophecy), and this can be historically documented.

Part 3 to follow…

 

[Rolltide]

1. An emphasis on preaching house-to-house began in 1922. By 1928, attendance at their yearly Memorial dropped nearly 75% from 1922, due to the previous power struggle, the failed predictions for the year 1925, and the evolving doctrinal changes which alienated those who sided with Russell’s views.

From 1925 to 1933, their eschatological beliefs underwent radical changes. In 1931, the name “Jehovah’s Witnesses” was adopted. By 1933, 1914 was seen as the beginning of Christ’s presence, his enthronement as king, and the start of the last days instead of being considered the terminal date in their chronology.

Under Rutherford, membership grew from about 44,000 in 1928 to about 115,000 at the time of his death in 1942.

So, the dotrine changed SO MUCH by 1928, that over 75% of the organization simply quit. They officially adopt the name "Jehovah’s Witnesses, and, as seen in point #9, adopt the idea that some of the people alive in 1914 WILL be alive at the time of the Second Coming. They also begin house-to-house preaching. They really almost had to, since their numbers were declining so severely.

1. Nathan Homer Knorr succeeded Rutherford as president of the Watch Tower Society. Known as an efficient administrator, Knorr founded the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead to train missionaries, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School to train preaching and teaching at the congregational level. (It is under Knorr that the Jehovah’s Witnesses earn their reputation as skillful deliverers of “personal testimonies.”

Knorr’s vice-president Frederick William Franz became the leading theologian, and is believed to have been the principal translator of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Also produced were a Greek-English New Testament interlinear (The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures) and a Bible dictionary (Aid to Bible Understanding). Since the Bible, as preserved through the centuries, did not support the peculiar doctrines of the Witnesses, Knorr chose an anonymous committee to produce the New World Translation, which is used by no sect other than the Witnesses. By means of former Witnesses, the names of the five members of the translation committee eventually came to light. Four of the five members completely lack credentials to qualify them as Bible translators, and the fifth member studied non-biblical Greek for only about two years.

The offices of elder and ministerial servant (deacon) were restored to Witness congregations in 1972, with appointments being made from headquarters. Membership rose from 115,000 to over 2 million under Knorr’s leadership.

**What seems to be the conclusion, based on what we’ve learned so far? The Jehovah’s Witnesses, having changed doctrine so many times and with so many failed predictions, were forced to alter the Bible to support their beliefs. Four of the five translators couldn’t even translate Greek! Now, this next quote came from the Catholic Answers article, but it indicates the types of things other religions accuse the New World Translation of changing:

“The New World Translation was produced because it buttresses Witnesses’ beliefs through obscure or inaccurate renderings. For example, to prove that Jesus was only a creature, not God, the New World Translation’s rendering of John 1:1 concludes this way: “and the Word was a god” [italics added]. Every other translation, Catholic and Protestant—not to mention the Greek original—has “and the Word was God.””

IF this is true, you can see that such a rendering would eliminate the references to the divinity of Jesus and his equality with God. Such a change would undermine Trinitarian religions. Mind you, I’m NOT telling you to automatically accept that is what happened. You can decide for yourself. But, you can at least acknowledge that if such a change DID occur, it would change the entire interpretation of the Bible. Catholics and Protestants argue that similar subtle changes were made throughout the Bible.**

Part 4 to follow…

 

[Rolltide]

1. Knorr was succeeded as head of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, by Frederick Franz. He had been the Witnesses’ leading theologian, and his services were often called upon. During the 1960s and early 1970s, various references appeared in Witnesses’ literature and assemblies, implying that Christ’s thousand-year millennial reign might begin by 1975. The chronology pointing to 1975 was noted in the secular media at the time. When it didn’t, Franz had to find an explanation.

Witnesses believe that Adam was created in 4026 B.C. and that human beings have been allotted 6000 years of existence until Armageddon and the beginning of the millennium. This figure is based on a “creative week” in which each of six days is equal to 1,000 years, with the Sabbath or seventh day being the beginning of the millennium. Simple arithmetic gives 1975 as the year Armageddon would arrive. Franz explained that Armageddon would actually come 6000 years after Eve’s creation. But when 1975 came and went, the Witnesses had to “adjust” their chronology to cover up a failed prediction. They accomplished this by maintaining that no one knew exactly how long after Adam’s creation Eve came on the scene. Franz said that it was months—even years. Hence he was able to “stretch” the 1975 date to some indeterminate time in the future. In any case, Franz said that Witnesses would just have to wait, knowing the end is right around the corner.

From 1975 to 1980, there was a drop in membership following the failure of this prediction to materialize. In 1980, the Watchtower Society admitted its responsibility in building up hope regarding the year 1975.

HOW many times is this now that the organization failed to predict the Second Coming? This time, even the secular media picked up the story. In this case, the Watchtower Society even admitted some responsibility that it was at fault, and that their overenthusiasm over certain writings about 1975 were misleading. Again, membership drops. Note that Franz is resorting to having to “recalculate” the date yet again, just as was done in 1874 and 1914.

1. The leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses was reorganized in 1976 and the power of the presidency passed on to the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Subsequent presidents of the Watch Tower Society after Knorr’s death in 1977 have been Frederick William Franz, Milton George Henschel (1993) and Don A. Adams. However, since 1976, doctrinal and organizational decisions have been made by the Governing Body. In 1995 the Watchtower quietly changed one of its major prophetic doctrines. Until this point, they had maintained that the generation alive in 1914 would not pass from the scene until Armageddon occurred. Now that this generation has almost entirely died out—and Armageddon has not occurred and does not seem like it will happen immediately—they had to change their doctrine. Now, the Watchtower says that Armageddon will simply occur “soon,” and it is no longer tied to a particular, literal generation of people.

**And so as recently as 11 years ago… yet another change in doctrine! It seems very suspicious that one of the core doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses has been rewritten again, again, and again. Certainly, this is not the only argument against the organization, but it’s the 800 pound elephant in the room. (In other words, it’s such a glaring error, it can’t be ignored.) **

1. As of August 2005, Jehovah’s Witnesses have a membership of more than 6.6 million actively involved in preaching. Jehovah’s Witnesses have an active presence in most countries. In no country are they a large part of the population, however. Brazil and Mexico are the only countries other than the U.S. where the number of active Witness publishers exceeds half a million.
   **
   If the Jehovah’s Witnesses are indeed the correct faith, why are so few people across the world in the organization? How are so many fundamental errors explained? Why is it primarily an American phenomenon? Why have SO many people left the group at SO many points during the past?**

Part 5 to follow…

 

[Rolltide]

Ok, what you’ve just read above is a very long combination of the Catholic Answers article and the Wikipedia article. I encourage you to read it over very closely. Think about the various points. Do you own research. Look up Beth Sarim. Also, when the Watchtower reprints its newsletters and publications, it has been known to go back and change what was said to cover up its poor history of prophecy. This is documented extensively and I can find you the references if you like. In light of all of this evidence, is it at least possible that the Watchtower could have altered the New World Translation to suit it’s needs?

There is a lot of information above, so let me summarize what conclusions I believe it leads to. Let me make it clear that this is no one’s opinion but my own.

**Charles Taze Russell is a good, but uneducated young man. At 17, he has a crisis of faith after getting in over his head in an argument with an athiest. He falls prey (or actively engages in) a variety of dubious schemes, and finally is drawn toward Adventism. He becomes unhappy. He wants to be a good person in a world that isn’t very good, so he’s drawn toward an organization that believes that this world will pass in the very near future. It would end all of his current problems on Earth and allow him eternal happiness. It fails to occur, but he continues to believe that this world will be over soon. This, above all, influences his beliefs. It’s a psychological and spiritual need, rather than any complex Biblical view.

Russell finds his calling in religion and begins to write. He borrows many ideas from the Adventists, rather than creating them himself. He breaks with Barbour, and makes his own predictions, which fail to materialize. Russell dies having created a belief system that helps to sooth his own troubled spirituality.

Joseph Franklin Rutherford seizes control of the organization in what amounts to a hostile takeover. He throws out many of Russell’s beliefs, and makes three more incorrect prophecies, including the one involving Beth Sarim. Three-fourths of the organization simply leaves the group. To stop these huge losses, new president Nathan Homer Korr institutes door-to-door evangilization.

The doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is now so far from what the Bible says, that Korr authorizes the New World Translation to force the book to support their views. (Please note that when the NWT came out, almost every single review was highly critical of the translation, pointing out that it was, at best, a transliteration, not a translation. This is where you create a very inaccurate translation that gives the rough idea of what the original says. It often has the effect of making it easier to read, too. That, of course, would be very helpful for someone not very experienced in reading the Bible.) Only one person could even translate Greek, and even he had insufficient background to have the necessary skills for the job.

By 1975, you have yet another failed prophecy that results in more people leading the organization. Even as late as last year, there are only 6.6 million followers of the group. Despite ALL their evangelization, they are rarely successful outside of the United States. Their biggest target group is former Catholics, since most Catholics grow up learning from the Catechism rather than from the Bible. They are not nearly as familiar with Bible study, and so don’t have the necessary skills to point out the many flaws in the doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.**

I hope that’s all helpful!

 

[mdcpensive1]

About JW’s, please if at all get Jason Everts book on Answering Jehovah Witnesses. It is the best thing out there that I have seen land read.
They are trained to confuse by their questions. One of the first is asking you to explain the Trinity. I would try to start by asking them about the authority of the Watchtower group that makes their literature. I would not talk about how individual doctrines of theirs is wrong FIRST. I would question the credibility of the leaders of the organization to know the truth so it would not be attacking your possible relatives personally.
mdcpensive1

 

[steve99]

I just started looking at this thread out of curiousity.

What a great thread with some excellent links, I’m going to save a lot of this material.

I’ve nothing to add to what has been said except someone said to me recently that they had upped the 144,000 to 3 million. Don’t know if that is true or what the justification is if true. What happens if there are more than 144,000 JW’s but only 144,000 get saved ?

Anyway thanks for all this.

 

[MyPhilomena]

I just started looking at this thread out of curiousity.

What a great thread with some excellent links, I’m going to save a lot of this material.

I’ve nothing to add to what has been said except someone said to me recently that they had upped the 144,000 to 3 million. Don’t know if that is true or what the justification is if true. What happens if there are more than 144,000 JW’s but only 144,000 get saved ?

Anyway thanks for all this.

no, as far as i know they have not upped the count to 3 million. what a hoot that would be considering how many times they have changed their doctrine since 1874! :whacky: jw’s believe that only 144,000 elite or ones that have the “heavenly hope” will go to heaven, and the rest of the “faithful jw’s” will live on earth forever in a paradise earth, these are called " the earthly class". jw’s believe that if you say something bad about the ones who have the “heavenly hope” that you will be annihilated at armageddon… since they do not believe in hell, they believe that ones
who are apostates ( independent thinkers, people who publish outspoken material criticizing the WTB&TS, deliberately unrepentent sinners, people who have been shunned and speak against the society publicly exct. ) will just be like taken out of
existence by God. They claim that only the WTB&TS speaks for God directly. Kind of like they are the mouthpiece for God, and that what they teach is the “ONLY” truth and that if you were to question it, and speak against it, your going to be taken out of existence by God, branded an apostate and never go to heaven, or live life eternal on earth. you’ll simply cease to exist. They do not believe in original sin, venial sin, or mortal sin. They believe Adam and Eve will never inherit the earth, never go to heaven, that because of the sin they committed, they were taken out of existence forever by God, and will never be resurrected. They think that all beliefs out their other than their own are run by satan, and are not the truth. they claim that only they have the truth, and that the only sure fire way for one to get to heaven as partof the heavenly class, or the only sure fire way to be partof the earthly class is to study with them, and live the way they dictate one to live. Whenever they change their doctrine, they claim it is " new light" and do not like to be questioned as to why they have changed their doctrine. they do not like members questioning why they change their doctrine. See, your not allowed to have independent thinking, your thinking must be inline with the WTB&TS, if it is not, you will be disfellowshipped, cut off potentially from friends and family, shunned, and not allowed to come back unless you repent, the only time they will never allow you to come back is if you have publicly spoken out against the WTB&TS, or tried to take others out of the organization by telling them that the old wolf is bad news ( WTB&TS )

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Ok, They are right, you should not date a Jehovah’s Witness.

Their Kingdom Interlinear admits that the word Jehovah is a mistranslation, and that the word YaHWeh is the correct translation.

Seek out knowledgable ex-jws in your local church to join you in discussion with them. Why let yourself be out numbered?

Ask them for a set of UNABRIDGED cdroms of all their literaure starting with Russells writings. Basically, through the years they have flip flopped on theology, set dates that did not come to past, and had Jim Baker type scandalls recorded in their literature that they don’t want outsiders to know about. Insisted on an UNABRIDGED edition of all their writings.

Watchtower shuts down Quotes website
watchtowerinformationservice.org/?p=206&cp=2

researchapplications.org/HTML%20pages/products.html

forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm

forananswer.org/ABC_Index.htm

Greber Supports New World Translation: Watchtower Cites Occult Spiritist
watchman.org/jw/greber.htm

 

[MyPhilomena]

you know what makes me laugh? this. the wtb&ts states that the number of 144,000 “heavenly class” is now about 8,000 or less. they figure that the number is low because most of the 144,000 are already in heaven, and the number reamining on earth is lowand the “heavenly class” is dying and that they are going to heaven. i’d like to know how they know for certain that most of the 144,000 are already there? since we do not know who goes to heaven, how can they be absolutely certain that there are so few left? these 8,000 or less are of course, jw’s, and no one else.

err yeah, right.

 

[DesertAscetic]

I wouldn’t be so quick to criticize those of us who are currently in interfaith relationships. Perhaps God has called the OP to date this JW with the purpose of helping her and her family return to the Catholic Church.

Just my :twocents:

I am currently in a relationship with an athiest communist whose was raised “catholic,” and whose family has fallen away from the Church. Through the four years I’ve known him, most of those years spent as the best of friends, he has changed a great many of his views. More importantly, he is my strength, and the love we have inspires me and keeps me on track with my faith.

If love is the great commandment, we must assume that Love has a power that cannot fully be comprehended. We listen to those we love more deeply than to those we don’t. Love is the greatest aide in evangelism, and what love could be greater than between a bride and bridgegroom?

In my relationship, he knows that part of “who I am,” is that “I am Catholic,” and that means that if he loves me, he loves/deeply respects what makes me-me. When I do my prayers, I can tell that he doesn’t understand, but I can also tell that he wonders at it. I believe this is the beginning pull of grace on him.

Do not assume that interfaith people do not take their faith seriously. He and I have had very specific and serious discussions and agreements on many issues. In terms of morality and lifestyle, we are in agreement on everything. Though atheist, he deeply understands the wrongess of abortion/euthanasia/etc. We have already agreed to raise children in that common moral environment and go to Mass together once a week. He has agreed to do this out of a deeply held belief that unity in the family, sharing common practices, has a value that transcends personal belief.

In some ways, I think our future children (god willing) will gain more from having a father that goes to mass but doesn’t believe than having both parents perfectly faithfull. If the kids turn out anything like the two of us, doubt will play a huge role in their internal spiritual life. I like that they will be taught (via example) how to maintain obedience even in the “dark nights of the soul,” and how to sacrifice for love and unity. I don’t want them to feel, as I so ignorantly did for years, that if you don’t have faith you have no use for Church. Through example, they will see that Church has a place in our lives and it’s not merely an object we use when in the fullness of faith, and break away from at every point of disagreement.

I have to wonder if the Reformations and Schisms would have happened if, more people had the same idea as we do.

And that’s my :twocents:
With love, through love, and in love, via LOTS of communication/prayer, I believe that ALL things are possible.

Pax,
Shaunna

 

[chris1888]

That’s a really nice story Shaunna, I hope everything works out well for you guys.

In answer to MyPhilomena, I asked my gf’s mum the exact same question and this is what I was told - they believe that out of the 144000, there are about 8000 left. I asked how they know this and she said that only those going to heaven may recieve what we would call the Eucharist but they call the “gifts”. At the Memorial of the Death of Christ, which is like their Easter and the only feast they have, the “gifts” are passed round and if you are not one of the 144000 then you can’t take it. They then keep a record of how many took it and bingo, it stands at 8000!
I asked how people know they are going to Heaven and all I was told was that God (Jehovah) reveals it to them, although they did concede that there may be fraudsters.

I’m going to have a wee chat about things with my gf tonight, nothing too heavy yet cos I’m still reading through stuff, but I’ll let you guys know how I get on.
God Bless

 

[MyPhilomena]

That’s a really nice story Shaunna, I hope everything works out well for you guys.

In answer to MyPhilomena, I asked my gf’s mum the exact same question and this is what I was told - they believe that out of the 144000, there are about 8000 left. I asked how they know this and she said that only those going to heaven may recieve what we would call the Eucharist but they call the “gifts”. At the Memorial of the Death of Christ, which is like their Easter and the only feast they have, the “gifts” are passed round and if you are not one of the 144000 then you can’t take it. They then keep a record of how many took it and bingo, it stands at 8000!
I asked how people know they are going to Heaven and all I was told was that God (Jehovah) reveals it to them, although they did concede that there may be fraudsters.

I’m going to have a wee chat about things with my gf tonight, nothing too heavy yet cos I’m still reading through stuff, but I’ll let you guys know how I get on.
God Bless

just because they keep records, it does not mean that they know 100% for sure where the other 136,000 are. God does not reveal anything to them because they are not the truth. That is a fact, and that wont change.

don’t let them swindle you Chris, keep on guard. God bless you.

 

[catsrus]

chris 1888,
Having been on the jw side of the fence a long time ago and now a joyfilled Catholic, I feel compelled to tell you:
A. DO NOT let any jw back you into a corner. Take hold and command of the conversation and you make them prove their belief. (hint: they can’t. They only know memorized and twisted scripture.)

B.

My gf even claims you could put the best Catholic theologian in the world up against an ordinary JW and the Witness would win every time.

Bull toenails! I’m no theologian and I have every jw leave my door frustrated because I take control of the conversation and witness to them about the TRUE Church. They can’t wait to get away from me! Arm yourself with your faith.

**C. **Do not marry this girl unless she converts to Catholicism (not likely, but possible). I was in a marriage with a non believer and believe you me, once the fireworks and flowers fade, it’s hell on earth.

just my :twocents:

 

[MyPhilomena]

before i became a jw, the first guy i was married to was not a baptized witness, but he did believe everything they teach. it was hell on earth believe me.

it didn’t even change when i became a witness either, as a matter of fact, it got worse. as you all know.

 

[MyPhilomena]

here is part 2 of my last post:

you know, it truly worries me when Catholics are in relationships with jw’s, they feel enormous pressure to join the jw belief, i ought to know, as iam a former jw, and before as i said, it was terrible, and even years into their heavy indoctrination and brainwashing, i was miserable almost all the time.

if anyone wants to know, i stood out in front of businesses with my magazines in -23degree weather, and froze, and all for the falsetower because i believed that i was doing the work of God, so i thought freezing was a small sacrifice to pay for doing God’s work.

that was not a pleasant experience, and i did this faithfully almost all winter! i’d clock up the hours believe me, in field service. i placed over 20 magazines in one day, sometimes in less than 1/2 an hour, and oh they loved it alright. but deep down inside, i’d wish i was not in the falsetower.

one day, i walked past the Catholic church. well, i decided to go in there and just sit for a bit. i actually felt a bit weird going in there, and the falsetower had me so brainwashed, that i felt guilty about being in the church! this is the first time back then that i had been in a church for almost 10 years at that time

anyways, i know a woman near our parish who is a Catholic, and is a sponsor in the RCIA program, a real faith lovely Catholic woman married to a jw. does she get to celebrate Christmas? no, does she get to celebrate her birthday in her home? no.does she get to put out the nativity scene at Christmas? no. is her marriage wonderful? no. is she sad alot of the time? yes.

they are an elderly couple, and she is saddened at her husband of many many decades being a jw. will she leave him? no. can she have her Catholic friends around? when he is not home. I highly recommend that Catholics if they are not involved with a jw, do not even go there. they are resistant to change, and do not
like people trying to convert them.

they will try their darndest to convert you, but if it is the other way around, forget it.you can show them the truth, but some will listen, some wont. i was very bummed out alot of the time when i was a witness, and always remembered Christmas, and at times, regardless of what the falsetower taught, i celebrated it regardless if i got caught or not.

they kind of remind me of the kgb. they do watch their members very very closely. especially new converts. they keep meticulous track of their members, no matter how long they are in that belief.

they do not tolerate outsiders telling their members that they are in the wrong, this usually is non believing family members of the one who is in the society, sometimes, they even try to interfere with the member and tell him/her to cut off all ties with family or friends who are trying to get the member out of the society.

my mom asked me many times to get out of it, and after i left my 1st husband, i got out for good, and the first thing i did when i got out was make myself a handmade rosary!! my mom was over joyed!! i had never seen her so happy in many years!

that rosary was deeply treasured back then, and i gave it away, and i still remember the feeling of intense joy while i was making it! i do not like to look back on that painful time in my life, i had suffered so much humiliation and degradation at the hands of certain members of that society, that it makes me cranky to have to relive it, but i re live it so that others may learn from my experience, and perhaps share it with others who might be desperate like i was to leave the society.