Merged: Discussion with Jehovah's Whitnesses/Advice Needed Badly - Catholic V Jw's

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Boy do I know this feeling!!! I bet I have talked to a dozen JWs over the years and they never change. It’s always, “there is no trinity…Jesus is not God…the Holy Spirit is some kind of divine radio wave or something, but not God.”

I was taking out the grabage a couple of weeks ago and up the driveway these two guys come. Both about my age and I pegged them right off the bat. (I have read a truckload of their stuff and discussed it with a lot of them.)

Anyway they were consistent and you should’ve seen their eyes light up when I told them that I was Catholic, but it was shortlived because I began to quote their own passages back to them from memory. (Dt 6:4, blah blah blah). I asked how much Hebrew they knew and they responded none. I then pointed out that the Hebrew word for “one” in that verse is “echad”, same as in Genesis 2:24, where it says that a man and his wife will become “one” flesh. Now, it doesn’t nail the Trinity, but they have yet (and these were no exception) to be able to explain to me how one can have a unity without a plurality. :eek: They like to just ignore that and push on as if it’s been dealt with, but when you persist, they leave you their pet booklet on the Trinity and get lost. I still have it though they won’t want it back. I’ve filled the margins with references and notes that refute their stuff.

San Juan Catholic Seminars has two booklets out on them and their Beginning Apologetics 2.5 is specifically a refutation of that anti-trinity booklet of theirs and is very good. It messes them up badly when you actually have read the Bible and know it. Generally they are masters of the dodge when you refute what they are preaching.

However, e-catholic, please don’t ever think for a second that what you are hearing is ignorance, because it’s not. The sources that they quote that are supposedly Catholic are people that the church has nailed as heretics or silenced under obedience because their teachings are heterodox., but the JWs don’t tell their readers that.

They even “quote” the ECF, except that that is also consistent. They never site a source for the quotes so one can verify the context, and you can look at the articles on the CA Library and see from the ECF quotes there that they are intentionally misrepresenting what the ECF taught. It’s really bad…

I realize that your intentions are very good my friend, but if I were you I would break off your studies with them because, (as you’ve seen) they are not being honest and it’s wasted a year of your time. Maybe take that time and offer to spend it as a sponsor in your parish’s RCIA classes, where it will really do some serious good. Who knows…perhaps there is a JW in there who is coming into the church.
Pax tecum,
 
Good point! eCathloic, read my post above his, it is from that book i mentioned here, and it is a good point for you to consider.

From the same chapter 3 in Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses by Jason Evert:

page 70

Witnesses tend to be very sincere people who strive to know and follow God, but their biggest and most tragic error is that they have placed their complete trust in an authority that deserves none at all. The Watchtower is guilty of irresponsible and sloppy research, and the victims are the unsuspecting readers.
 
Jehovah’s don’t believe in the Trinity? I didn’t know that. I never would want to invite them in but I like that one magazine with the news. If these people are bothering and annoying you, probably you ought to quit talking to them, it’s similar to a debate board such as this, usually people don’t convince the other person, but end up getting frustrated with them.
 
chris1888 said:
I actually brought up the subject of the esteemed Mr Russell a few weeks ago. I asked if he was their founder and was told that the jw’s have always been around, he was merely the one who founded the watchtower and organised them. At that point I didn’t have the info I have now so I just bit my lip, I won’t any more though! .
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Okay Chris, regarding Russell, see this from the book : Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses by Jason Evert.

Chapter 1 Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Leaders

page 28

In one of these volumes, Russell explains how the Great Pyramid of Giza can be used to predict the end-times events by calculating the length of its various internal passageways. It was to be considered “God’s Stone Witness and Prophet, the Great Pyramid in Egypt from Is. 19:19, 20 ] .” *The Watchtower *also confirmed this view: "Indeed, some, after reading this volume Studies in the Scriptures, vol.3 ] have referred to the Great Pyramid as 'The Bible in stone ’ " It also noted:

Viewed from whatever standpoint we please, the Great Pyramid is certainly the most remarkable building in the world…*t aquires new interest to every Christian advanced in the study of God’s word… The Great Pyramid, however, proves to be a storehouse of important truth-scientific, historic, and prophetic-and its testimony is found to be in perfect accord with the Bible… t is a strong corroborative witness to God’s plan; and the few students can carefully examine it, marking the harmony of its testimony with that of the written Word, without feeling impressed that its construction was planned and directed by the same divine wisdom … *t was evidently a part of God’s purpose to keep secret, until the Time of the End.

While Russell taught that God placed the pyramid in Egypt, shortly after he died the Watchtower made a drastic change and declared that the pyramid was built under the direction of Satan.
Those who modeled their beliefs on the pyramid’s structure were “not following after Christ,” since it was “Satan’s Bible.” However, if the Watchtower’s assertion about being “God’s organization” is true, one is left with the stark contradiction that God’s organization was using “Satan’s Bible” and “not following after Christ” during those years when it taught the pyramid was, in fact, God’s stone witness.**
 
Church_Militant said:
It’s possible…as well as it may be God’s way of getting him to better know his faith. These crisis (sp?) often get folks deeper into the faith.

Guess that makes…:twocents: :twocents:
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exactly…I myself…(honestly) dont know about Catholic apologetics not until I’ve got hired on my first job (APRIL 2005)…I had a co-worker who is an INK(Iglesia ni Kristo)…I find him bashing…and so I decided to learn more…the next time he will bash…ill ask him about Manalo’s history…hehe
 
Okay so I have a question for some of you, because I’m a bit ignorant, and uneducated when it comes to other religions, and I’m really making an effort to learn more so I can be more knowledgable when trying to present catholicism to non-catholics.

Anyways my question is about the JW’s and how most of you say they are not ignorant, and present things out of context, or misrepresent the catholic church, and so on with a number of other dishonest things etc.
So I want to know, how in there hearts and minds can they justify this to themselves. I always thought that even though I disagree with JW’s, that they themselves atleast thought they were doing good. If they are knowingly being dishonest, can they really believe they are doing good? Or am I wrong about JW’s and deep down they have no problem doing wrong?
Sorry if my question is a bit unclear. I’m just confused because even if I’ve been wrong my whole life about the catholic faith, I always preach believing deep down in my heart that what I’m saying is true. I’ve never told lies or mislead someone to snare them into the catholic faith. Is this what JW’s are knowingly trying to do?
 
The governing body knows full well what they are doing. Most of the witnesses do not know that what they are preaching is false, they are heavily indoctrinated, and they believe they are doing the “work” of God when in fact they aren’t. They are completely
misled by the falsetower, but that is not to say that some of the ones in the congregations do not know what they are doing because there are those that do know their belief is based on falsity, and yet they go out and preach regardless, because for them, its all they know. what i cannot forrgive or rather, have a very hard time forgiving is that the ones who publicly and privately humiliated me know what they did was unbiblical, and the elders did nothing to stop it.now that is not to say that the rest of the ones where i was at knew it was wrong what their members did to me, but the majority of high ranking witnesses knew about it and they did nothing to stop it from happening. the whole point with this organization is that their beliefs are not based on fact, nor are they true. i think thes ones that preach honestly that what they think is true are the ones we need to help get out of that foul stench. if we somply close our doors to these people, we could lose out on saving just 1 soul. this is why we must arm ourselves with facts, and research everything possible when talking to beliefs that are non Catholic. At least we then know what we are up against, and when we have the facts, we are able to completely disarm people who want to try to convert us to their belief, or try to attack us for what we believe. We have the truth, that is a fact,and that is not going to change. However, when it comes to jw’s, they are esepcially hardto speak to when it comes to showing them that their belief is based on lies and false predictions, as well as their governing body is a total pack of wolves in sheeps clothing. this organization is reposnsible for the deaths of thousands of people who have died from a lack of a transplant, or blood. this is not something that one needs to have on their hands when it comes to the final judgement, but they do never the less. if we can point out their errors and just one is willing to listen, then that person has been set free from the falsetower and can be truly free. But, we must be willingto devote the time and effort to help them see it. we must be able to tell them that yes, there is a life beyond the falsetower, and just because you have left it, does not mean you will lose everlasting life, in fact, you can gain everlasting life by knowing Christ Jesus.the falsetower emotionally blackmails people and plays on their fear of losing everlasting life, they state that if you are an independent thinker, and do not rely on them for your daily bread, as well as if you read anti jw mateiral, you will lose out on everlasting life, and also if you publicly speak out against them, you will be damned for all eternity, and this is the meanest type of emotional blackmail that i know that exists. to say God would deliberately wipe us out if we did not do what the watchtower says is not inly false, but is absolutr cruelty and that cannot be tolerated. they tried this stunt on me when i left, after receiving my letter thati wanted to be disfellowshipped, they came over in a car, and told me that i would be damned for leaving and damned for giving up on the falsetower, and i simply stated, oh well. i did not believe it, and i still don’t. they even sent people over to my exe hsubands house where i had been staying until the divorce was finalized and packingmy stuff up to leave, and they trie din vain to get me to come back and re cant my letter to them and i refused. the lady i had studied with even came lookig for me when i first left my ex husband, and that was about 8 minths before i handed in the letter of finality. she had in vain looked for me for 1 month, and did not know i was at my moms, and trying to get the filth out of my system that is the falsetower. i had left and did not want them to know where i was, and they never knew until i cam eback and finalized the divorce and sent them the letter. the point of all this is to let people know that not all of them are as innocent as they seem. what they did to me is unforgiveable in my eyes, and yes, some day i will have to forgive them, but its been 7 years since i sent the letter, and iam still unable to forgive them after all these years. i will, but it is very hard for me. do not be swayed by their innocent act, because trust me, the wolves in the fold are out to destroy the sheep, and if one is unarmed and has no knowledge, they might succeed.
 
Bins, the jws that knock on your door ARE sincere. They are only parroting what their twisted organization (the watchtower bible and tract society) tells them is true.
I know. I’ve been there myself.
 
Hi:

I am a former JW who is now Catholic. What you are experiencing with your JW friends is not uncommon. The Watchtower Society often equates modalism with the Trinity. As far as your Greek JW friend is concerned, she is looking at the Bible through the tradition of the JWs which means that her translating will be biased in that direction. And to be honest with you Bible Translation is very difficult so someone who used to be Greek Orthodox and probably only knows modern Greek to a certain extent would not be the best one to use as an expert in translating Biblical Greek into English.

The Kingdom Interlinear Version is an interesting publication and it was through the use of that that I began to see that Jesus is God. You can actually use that publication and even the JWs own New World Translation to show that the Bible teaches Jesus is God.

You might find my website helpful. Here are the links:

catholicxjw.com/fundamentaldoctrine.html

catholicxjw.com/JesusYahweh.html

catholicxjw.com/Trinity1.html

catholicxjw.com/Trinity2.html

catholicxjw.com/Wordwasgod.html

catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/hiding.html

catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/antenicene.html

I also have a couple of podcasts that you might find helpful:

catholicxjw.blogspot.com/2006/08/holy-spirit-is-god.html

catholicxjw.blogspot.com/2006/05/jesus-is-god.html

If you need more help, feel free to contact me through the website.

Jeff Schwehm
President
The Fellowship of Catholic Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses
www.catholicxjw.com
 
well regardless nice or not, innocent or not, one has to prepare themselves for any visit from a jw. you will likely be caught off guard when they knock on your door, so that being said, simply research their belief and be ready for the day that they knock on the door. they usually like to use world situations that we are often hearing about in the news, for example: hello how are you today? you answer, iam fine… how may i help you? ( you know they are witnesses obviously ) they state, we are jehovah’s witnesses… have you ever heard of jehovah’s witnesses? you state, yes i have. i’ve heard about your publications, the watchtower and awake magazines. they answer somewhat pleased, thank you. did you notice such and such was on the news lately? ( they will have a magazine prepared for their topic they want to discuss ) you answer, yes i have, and it is an interesting subject is it not? they start on the subject and show you bible passages, and you can here offer your own bible to read from, often they will be willing to look at it, as they are out to convert you don’t forget. you can ask them questions such as,
not to get off topic or anything, but i’ve noticed there is a difference between the bible you have, and the bible i have. woud you be willing to discuss these differences? they will often say, what differences are you referring to? here is a good time to put to the test all that research you have done! you can show them the scriptures that are different in their bible compared to ours. such as John 1:1, and so on. the conversation can take a turn any way you want it to. the previous poster is correct, alot of them are very friendly, and willing to talk, so get Jason Evert’s book, and read it through and absorb what it says. highlight certain passages in the book such as i have. if you don’t want to get the book, you can look up and research about the organization on the net. you will be surprised at what you find.
 
Last Saturday morning before heading out to do yardwork I thought to myself how long it had been since I seen a JW at my door. Lucky for me, just when I was finishing up I saw them making their rounds. I dont know if its just my area, but I dont get very learned JW’S. Whatever I tell them it just angers them and doesnt make them want to have further discourse with me, even though I always ask them to come back so we can discuss whatever they want. They say they will but never do. Everything I ask them they just stand there looking befuddled? Some of the things I asked them, which the main person who was an ex catholic, was what made you leave catholicism and her quick response was that she could never believe Jesus was God. Because I live in a very Catholic area, it is really weird hearing someone have so much problems believing in Jesus. I told her Jesus called himself I AM, but she didnt know what to say. She told me not to listen to what I was told the bible means but to just read it. I asked her that is what over 30,000 protestant denominations have done and that isnt going very well. She then referred to God speaking to Jesus during His baptism and asked me how could God speak to Himself? I told her in regards to their bible that Judge Rutherford began to create their own version of the bible in 1950-1961 so I couldnt refer her to John 1, but asked her to look at the orginal text. I also told her that her leaders thought that the Old Testament prophets would be resurrected in 1925 so they bought a mansion in San Diego so they could live there, as well as a car to drive them around in, perhaps to see the sites :-)? Needless to say that didnt happen. I tried to tell her that JW’s founder Charles Russell was heavily under the influences of the seventh day advenstists as he himself was a former congragationalist and was just a confused person after trying to convert an atheist. I asked her to look at the history and to find a JW before the 19th century and that I would then begin to consider their claims. There are also many areas that there WatchTower changes it’s stance on throughout the last several years. I also tried using certain verses to disprove that Jesus was Michael the archangel but they didnt seem to care much. I showed them where in Jude 9 where Michael refuses to rebuke Satan, but in all other instances in the desert and elsewhere, that our Lord does not hesitate to rebuke anyone. Like someone else has already said here, whatever you tell them they dont like, they brand you as speaking for the devil, so grace is the most important element in all this. I rather enjoy talking to our JW brothers and sisters. I am saddened that there arent any mormons in my area to knock on my door.

Remember 2 Tim 2:23 says to avoid foolish and ignorant debates because we know it will only breed quarrels. But other places in scripture it implores us to attest and witness to why and what we believe. So if they come knocking at your door then stand admonish them, but its not very beneficial to debate for debatings sake. I promise I will take my own advise.
 
The last couple didn’t get much joy with me. For one thing I never watch, or listen to the News because I am sure someone will tell me any real important stuff, like a nuclear war breaking out.

I told them that I became convinced that the Catholic Church was the true Church that was handed down from Christ and the apostles, and that what it teaches today can be verified by reading the writings of the early Church Fathers.

The younger man hardly spoke but he was listening so I said how great it is to be able to access the writings just by typing “writings of the early church fathers” in Google.

I told them that I am a Catholic Evangelist and the older man asked what that was so I told him that, being convinced of the truth of Catholic teaching I make it my mission to share that Truth with other people wherever I come across them to lead the to the Catholic Church…

They haven’t been back.

When the Mormons come knocking I just love to tell them that it is due to a couple of their missionaries who visited and left me a Book of Mormon that led me home to the Catholic Church. :rotfl:
 
Hi,

I don’t know much about Jehovah’s Whitnesses and their beliefs. (I’ve never met any)
However, after reading over some of these posts, my question is: How do they deal with Genesis 1:26, when used as Scriptural basis for the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity?
And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
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Do they just dismiss the use of the plural pronouns as grammatical errors?

Thanks and God Bless!
 
Eileen_T said:
I told them that I am a Catholic Evangelist and the older man asked what that was so I told him that, being convinced of the truth of Catholic teaching I make it my mission to share that Truth with other people wherever I come across them to lead the to the Catholic Church…
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How could he not know what an Evangelist is? Wasn’t he trying to evangelize you??? Or had he never heard the words “Catholic” and “Evangelist” used together, before?
When the Mormons come knocking I just love to tell them that it is due to a couple of their missionaries who visited and left me a Book of Mormon that led me home to the Catholic Church. :rotfl:
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Oh that’s priceless. :rotfl: Next time they come to your door, will you take a picture of the expressions on their faces after you give them that little piece of info? Please??? 😃

God Bless!
 
vladimir998 said:
One of the handiest things I have ever found on the internet is this: bible.ca/trinity/trinity-JW-SYBTT-Watchtower-BOOKLET-Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity-EXPOSED-REFUTED-pagan-section.htm

The author actually looked up all the texts the JWs use in their infamous “Should you believe in the Trinity?” booklet to show how they deceptively quote them. He then provides the REAL quote side-by-side with the phony quote to show the difference. It’s devastating to JW claims of scholarship.
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Just be careful though because bible.ca is a protestant page and has some very very anti-Catholic, its ironic that they would investigate the JW sources and read the context but wont do the same regarding Catholcism :confused:, rather they fall upon the usual out of context verses and misquoting as the JWs do 😦
 
vladimir998 said:
It’s devastating to JW claims of scholarship.
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As i posted in an earlier post on this thread:

From the same chapter 3 in Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses by Jason Evert:

page 70

Witnesses tend to be very sincere people who strive to know and follow God, but their biggest and most tragic error is that they have placed their complete trust in an authority that deserves none at all. The Watchtower is guilty of irresponsible and sloppy research, and the victims are the unsuspecting readers.
 
e-catholic said:
About a year ago some JW’s came to my door, I invited them back for a descussion the next week, and we have been meeting every Monday since. I had never done this before, but I felt somehow drawn to talk to this woman. She has brought one of many different people each week. We have had some good discussions, although we have not agreed on much.

Over this period of time I have found one thing in common with all of them in regards to the Trinity. They all insist that the Catholic Church teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one person. They dismiss the Trinity dogma as beyond comprehension, and therefore obviously just a fabrication of apostasy. The woman that I meet with every week has stopped suggesting that we teach that they are the same person, but each of the people she brings with her makes this claim. It is almost like, once I call one of them on it, they just get someone else to make the claim.

At first I thought that it was just ignorance, and belief in what they had been told. The correction I thought would be accepted, now I am not so sure.

This week she brought with her a former Greek Orthodox woman who speakes Greek (somewhat) and had a Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the bible. (The KIT is an interlinear translation that is published by the WTS, and it exposes all of the mistranslation in the New World Translation). Well, she proceeded to tell me that the phrase “all things” has the same meaning as “all [other] things” in relation to Christ creating all things. :confused: (I guess they just stick to their gunns no matter what ) The thing that really ticked me off is when she made the same claim that all the others did, tha the Trinity doctrine claims that all three are “one person”. :mad: As a former Greek Orthodox I was sure she knew better. I had a hard time attributing her claim to ignorance. :mad:

Well, my question is, does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this? Is there a way to make my point?

At the end of our last meeting it was suggested to me that I just read the Bible, and forget about everything that they said, and everything that I have been taught. “Just read the Bible”.

I have done just fine to this point, and I figured that if they didn’t agree with me at least maybe I would give them something to think about. This last meeting was the first time that I actually became angry, about what I saw a “feigned ignorance” by a former Greek Orthodox. I would like to find a way to continue in the spirit of Christ discussing these matters with them.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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The thing that amazes me is how these “Catholic-Church-is-apostate” people think that some of the greatest minds in history totally missed the boat and that the “truth” has been revealed only to them and only within the past couple of hundred years.

You can argue interpretation with them til you’re blue in the face, and as John Martignoni says- it’s your interpretation against theirs.

To cut thru the ****, ask them why artificial birth contol (including the pill) is ok for JW’s.
 
chris1888 said:
MyPhilomena, your story paints a pretty sad picture of life in the jw’s but I’m so glad it had a happy ending for you! Thanks very much for sharing it, its certainly food for thought.

I had a chat with my girlfriend last night, basically asking her what she wants to happen. She says she would love for me to believe what she does as she wants me to survive Armageddon (she thinks it will happen within our lifetime) but she can’t make me believe, only I can do that. I told her that while I respect her beliefs I’ve got major issues with a lot of what the watchtower teaches and she has to realise that my faith is so important to me. She says she really loves me and there is no way we would have to split up if I refused to become a jw.

She said something else though, she said that if her mum could prove from the Bible that the jw’s are right then surely I would have to accept it (she is REALLY confident her mum can do this). I said what would happen if I could do the same to her and she said she would feel shattered but she would have to accept it. This has given me the idea that maybe instead of worrying about me having to convert maybe I should start to show her the Truth of the Catholic faith and how wrong the watchtower is. My gf hasn’t been baptised a jw, she doesn’t go to meetings and her sister has actually been disfellowed, resulting in her dad also not going to meetings. Having said that they do all believe the watchtower, but maybe I can show her otherwise.

Its going to have to be done over time though and I still need to get up to speed on everything as well. Pray God helps me bacause I really don’t want to lose her. I’m so glad I found this site, its got everything you need to know!
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Hi Chris,

I think that you might be in a good situation here. From what I have read, it is a situation like this that often begins to open people up to leaving the JW’s. I think CA live has some conversion stories in their archives, I know I listened to some good info from there. As well as everything else look at some info on what JW’s go through when they leave. They are so indoctrinated that they often go through a time of not practicing, and just assuming that they will “die” ie “cease to exist” because they cannot live up to what is expected by the Watchtower, and they see it as the only way.

Check out Catholic xjw forums, and also jehovahs-witness.com forums. The second site is one that has many ex jws, and some current jw’s. Many sad stories, and some good info. One post I read the other day someone said something about people not realizing how much “deprogramming” they have to go through. Be patient, as you talk to them expect that sometimes they just might refuse to see your point, hopefully with your prayers, and a few quiet moments of their own the point will seep in.
 
Thank You everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I have done alot of research in the last year, but between what is here, and what has been posted on the other thread started by Chris1888, I have found many things that I didn’t know were on the web, plus some good book suggestions.

I have not been ignoring you guys, but I have had a lot to look at.

I meet with my JW’s tomorrow, and I am not sure if I will meet with them again after that. I will see how things go, and pray for guidance. If God gives me the strength to discuss with them without loosing my temper, or getting frustrated, then I will continue. I also wonder if they will break the whole thing off, I thing I am also frustrating them.
 
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