MERGED: Does Hell exist today?

[campeador]

Please explain, because the Bible does not contradict itself.

In Matthew 13, Jesus is clear that the wicked will be destroyed during the harvest at the “end of the world”, and not before that time. Revelation 20 echoes this same understanding by stating that the second death is the lake of fire after the 1,000 years (following Christ’s return) of the righteous being in heaven . Also, 2 Peter 2:9 say that God is reserving the unjust “unto the day of judgment to be punished”.

Why would the Bible state that hell-fire is at the end of the world if it’s something that’s going on now? Why would God allow the unjust to burn now and be “punished” later, if in fact hell-fire is the ultimate punishment (i.e. the second death)?

Thanks.

Particular Judgment: “The Catholic doctrine of the particular judgment is this: that immediately after death the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God.”

 

[BibleTruth]

Particular Judgment: “The Catholic doctrine of the particular judgment is this: that immediately after death the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God.”

Matthew 15:9: “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Please prove your biblical points from the Bible and not the traditions of men. Thanks.

 

[campeador]

You are correct, my friend. Holy Scripture is never contradictory. Could it be that your interpretation is wrong?

Matthew 15:9: “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Please prove your biblical points from the Bible and not the traditions of men. Thanks.

1). Luke 23:42-43: And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when you shall come into your kingdom. And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to you: This day you shall be with me in paradise.

2). Luke 16:22-24: When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.

3). 2 Corinthians 5:6-9: So we are always courageous, although we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight.
Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord. Therefore, we aspire to please him, whether we are at home or away.

1). Jesus is clear: the penitent thief will be with him in Paradise today, not having to wait, asleep until the Last Judgment.

2). Obviously the rich man and Lazarus were not asleep, and able to communicate with the Patriarch Abraham who was also not sleeping.

3). Paul says ‘we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord’. Paul did NOT say ‘we would rather go to sleep until the Last Judgment when we will awake and be reunited with our bodies and then go home to the Lord’.

 

[BTTG]

You are correct, my friend. Holy Scripture is never contradictory. Could it be that your interpretation is wrong?

1). Luke 23:42-43: And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when you shall come into your kingdom. And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to you: This day you shall be with me in paradise.

2). Luke 16:22-24: When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.

3). 2 Corinthians 5:6-9: So we are always courageous, although we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight.
Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord. Therefore, we aspire to please him, whether we are at home or away.

1). Jesus is clear: the penitent thief will be with him in Paradise today, not having to wait, asleep until the Last Judgment.

2). Obviously the rich man and Lazarus were not asleep, and able to communicate with the Patriarch Abraham who was also not sleeping.

3). Paul says ‘we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord’. Paul did NOT say ‘we would rather go to sleep until the Last Judgment when we will awake and be reunited with our bodies and then go home to the Lord’.

If I may add my belief. My numbers respond to your scripture quotes.

1. For 40 years I believed the thief was going to see Jesus in Paradise until…1) one could put the comma on the other side of the “today” and the verse has a new meaning. 2) Jesus did not ascend to His father the day He was crucified, 3) No one has ascended to heaven, except Jesus- John 3:13 4) where Jesus is we cannot go there - john 7:33-34
2. I believe this parable is not about death , but about life and how we view life. There are many reasons why this message cannot be taken literally. 1) This message if literal would mean that all rich people go to hell and all poor/beggars go to heaven. 2) if one is tormented in flames, a dip of a finger would not cool his body, how could he see if his eyes are burning with flames 3) there is no where in scripture that states when we die angles carry the dead body to Abraham’s body ( which is symbolic of heaven) 4) Luke 16:30 - the rich man protests against father Abraham, thinking that he knows better. The Pharisees believed in immortality of the soul. The rich man in verse 30 is stating that “one goes to them from the dead, they will repent”. But then Abraham ( Jesus) said you have to listen to Moses and the prophets. 5) Lazarus was raised - John 11 - If Lazarus was in heaven ( a place of beauty beyond our imagination) why would Jesus be so mean and send him back to this earth…a place of sin? b) when he is resurrected John 11:43- it reads Lazarus “come forth”, not “come down” and Lazarus does not talk about the state of heaven, nor does anyone ask him about heaven. - Martha does when the resurrection of the dead take place - John 11:24 6) Jesus talks about “sleep” as “death” - John 11:11-14
3. This is a very complicated message for me. So I go to what Paul has to say in other areas of the bible. 1) (1Co 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 2) 1 Thes. 4:14-17 ; (1Th 5:10) Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

Richard…you must be speaking of a different Jesus.

Jesus had two natures…His divine nature and His human nature… He became truly man while remaining truly God…Jesus Christ is true God and true man, He is not part God and part man.

At the crucifixion, what remained in the tomb for three days was his human nature…but his divine nature did not die…it remained alive…it was with the Father, with Elijah and Moses and the Good Thief. For if his divine nature had died…then He would not be God, for God is Eternal.

He could have risen that very evening, or the very next day, but He did not. Why? It was to fulfill what was prophesied…and I think it was to prove to unbelievers, that He was really dead, and nobody could say that he pretended to be dead.

So, at His resurrection, the witnesses see his human body…as proof that he was indeed the Son of God, as he claimed, and to fulfill what was prophesied. And there was another purpose for doing this. Jesus did this to establish contact with his Apostles, with His mother, with witnesses. He invited them to touch him, He ate with them, stayed with them till his ascension so that they would recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his Passion. Remember Thomas actually touching His wounds? And after seeing Jesus is alive…this proved to His Apostles the truth of what he said and it was to awaken their faith, so that when they did go out to spread Jesus’s word…there was no doubt in them.

Again, Richard…there is no conflict. Jesus spoke the truth then and does so today. You just have to truly open your eyes and heart.

Hello

I believe Jesus was not resurrected the next day Sabbath, as it was a day of rest, a day that Jesus Himself established.

I agree that Jesus after the resurrection was not a ghost… He was eating and talking. I believe the saved will have bodies like Jesus when we are in heaven and that the saved too will see Jesus’ marks on His hands( wrists) and His pierced side.

As for the appearance of Thomas with Jesus, Jesus offered for Thomas to touch His hands and side- was this a test to see what faith Thomas had. However, there is no indication that Thomas actually touched Him. In vs 29, we read that Thomas did not touch Jesus, “Thomas because you have “seen me”, you have believed. " - Jesus didn’t say because you have” touched me" you believe, but that you “seen me”.

 

[GEddie]

If I may add my belief. My numbers respond to your scripture quotes.

1. For 40 years I believed the thief was going to see Jesus in Paradise until…1) one could put the comma on the other side of the “today” and the verse has a new meaning.

The question then becomes where that comma belongs?

I’m studying NT Greek and will ask my tutor for a good source on this. However, I do know that versions where the comma is moved to after “today” seem to be a 19th-Century innovation.

1. Jesus did not ascend to His father the day He was crucified,

Not in HIS flesh. But HE was made alive in the spirit (1 Pt 3:18) “There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.” 1Co 15:44.

1. No one has ascended to heaven, except Jesus- John 3:13 4) where Jesus is we cannot go there - john 7:33-34

Not while we breathe; however, we will follow HIM later (Jn 13:36)

1. I believe this parable is not about death , but about life and how we view life. There are many reasons why this message cannot be taken literally. 1) This message if literal would mean that all rich people go to hell and all poor/beggars go to heaven.

Not really. He doesn’t say that his brothers (presumably also rich) needed to become poor to avoid his punishment, but that they needed to “repent.” You don’t repent from being rich; you repent from sin.

1. if one is tormented in flames, a dip of a finger would not cool his body,

Indeed. Lazarus could not carry enough water to cool off his skin; only to partially ease his thirst. And even that relief was not given him.

how could he see if his eyes are burning with flames

Again, it is not a natural human body but a “Spiritual Body.” In this body, we will have more durable senses.

1. there is no where in scripture that states when we die angles carry the dead body to Abraham’s body ( which is symbolic of heaven)

What dead body? It was clear to them and to us that the dead bodies went nowhere.

1. Luke 16:30 - the rich man protests against father Abraham, thinking that he knows better. The Pharisees believed in immortality of the soul. The rich man in verse 30 is stating that “one goes to them from the dead, they will repent”. But then Abraham ( Jesus) said you have to listen to Moses and the prophets.

Precisely. The Tanakh (Jewish scripture) was all anybody needed for salvation.

JESUS was also preaching HIS own message; HE HIMself was going to rise from death, but not everybody would repent even then.

1. Lazarus was raised - John 11 - If Lazarus was in heaven ( a place of beauty beyond our imagination) why would Jesus be so mean and send him back to this earth…a place of sin?

They were almost certainly not the same Lazarus, which was probably a common Jewish name in the 00s. The Lazarus in Luke 19 is a beggar; Lazarus of Bethany almost certainly was not, inasmuch as he had a rock tomb, which required wealth to build. Beggars in the 00s did not lie in rock tombs, any more than they now receive bronze caskets and marble tombstones.

b) when he is resurrected John 11:43- it reads Lazarus “come forth”, not “come down” and Lazarus does not talk about the state of heaven, nor does anyone ask him about heaven. -

Again, probably 2 different persons.

GOD Bless and ICXC NIKA