MERGED: Does Hell exist today?

[hamba2han]

What if hell is the willful separation of the individual from God by his own choice? God doesn’t send us to hell. We choose to go there.

What if someone is so filled with remorse about all of the wrong and evil things that he has done in his life that he actually WANTS to enter Hell as penance… Would the Lord allow him to enter Hell even though he really does want to be sent there?

Conversely, what if someone is so filled with pride over all of the good deeds that he has done in his life that he actually believes that entry into Paradise is his right… Would the Lord allow him to enter Paradise even though he expects to go there?

When you say that God does not send His creations to Hell and that it is they themselves who choose to go there, you are putting a severe limitation on the power and prerogative of the Master of the Day of Judgment.

That is why it is not wise at all for the creations to either have so much expectation that they will enter Paradise… or to be so full of despair that they deserve to be sent to the Hell-fire… because the decision on their fate in the Hereafter is solely and entirely up to their Creator to deliver Judgment on.

In other words, the creations do NOT send themselves to either Paradise or Hell, it is instead their Lord and Creator who will decide on their final destination when they stand before Him on the Day of Judgment.

 

[benidict]

How do we know that these people are seeing Jesus? Does anybody know what Jesus looks like?

Can people in hell, see, smell, hear, talk, with people in hell, or in heaven, or on earth?

how would it not be? did Jesus not say, let the little children come unto me, for such is the kingdom of heaven? and how do you account for the ones who have never heard His name, coming back and saying this is who they met? not buddah, not mohammed,not any of these so called prophets. only Jesus. and again what about moses? he seemed to be conversing and seeing Jesus very well on the mount of transfiguration. his body was still dead. so how could this be, if he was not alive in paradise. Peace

 

[Richard_Kastner]

interesting. so what you are telling me, is that the hindus and buddhist are correct. this is exactly what they seek. the annialation of the being. you just described nirvana. the bible and tradition teach something else. why else would the bible state the smoke of their torment goes up forever. and also that they shall have no rest day or night. again, just like much of Adventist theology, you have to ignore many passages to come to these views. hell was not intended for men. it was intended for the rebellious angels. man however chose to eat of the tree of knowledge. so there for incurred the penalty for himself. Peace

Rev.22
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Matt.16
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Luke 12
47And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

The wicked will suffer varying degrees of punishment before they are consumned in the flames.

Isaiah 47
14Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

It says in Isaiah that the wicked will be burned up, they shall become stubble, and after that there will be no more fire. After he fuel for the fire is consumned the fire goes out. It will not be put out by some outward force (quenched). It will simply burn out as the wicked become stubble.

Rev.21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The former things of which hellfire is one will “pass away”

Malachi 4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

It says here in Malachi that the wicked become ashes and stubble. In other words they are consumned, burned up, forever.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

What if someone is so filled with remorse about all of the wrong and evil things that he has done in his life that he actually WANTS to enter Hell as penance… Would the Lord allow him to enter Hell even though he really does want to be sent there?

Conversely, what if someone is so filled with pride over all of the good deeds that he has done in his life that he actually believes that entry into Paradise is his right… Would the Lord allow him to enter Paradise even though he expects to go there?

When you say that God does not send His creations to Hell and that it is they themselves who choose to go there, you are putting a severe limitation on the power and prerogative of the Master of the Day of Judgment.

That is why it is not wise at all for the creations to either have so much expectation that they will enter Paradise… or to be so full of despair that they deserve to be sent to the Hell-fire… because the decision on their fate in the Hereafter is solely and entirely up to their Creator to deliver Judgment on.

In other words, the creations do NOT send themselves to either Paradise or Hell, it is instead their Lord and Creator who will decide on their final destination when they stand before Him on the Day of Judgment.

God gives us certain rules (commandments) of conduct. If we say that we want something (heaven) and we ignore His rules. We are by our choice deciding our fate. It’s not our mouth that decides our fate but our actions. Satan wants to be God.

Isaiah 14
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

But I don’t think that anyone, except maybe Satan, thinks that He will ever attain that goal.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Of coarse God is the final judge, but He is not arbitrary. He will judge us according to His own rules and it is to the extent that we follow those rules that we decide our own fate.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

What if someone is so filled with remorse about all of the wrong and evil things that he has done in his life that he actually WANTS to enter Hell as penance… Would the Lord allow him to enter Hell even though he really does want to be sent there?

Can you quote a real life example?

 

[hamba2han]

What if someone is so filled with remorse about all of the wrong and evil things that he has done in his life that he actually WANTS to enter Hell as penance… Would the Lord allow him to enter Hell even though he really does want to be sent there?..

Well actually, now that I think of it, perhaps this person will get his wish to enter the Hell-fire based on the following verses of the Qur’an:

Do not despair of solace from Allah. No one despairs of solace from Allah except for those who disbelieve. (Surah Yusuf: 87)

Say: “My servants, you who have transgressed against yourselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Truly Allah forgives all wrong actions. He is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful.” (Surah az-Zumar: 53)

You see, someone who does indeed despair of the Mercy of his Lord has in fact become a disbeliever and therefore will probably end up in the Hell-fire… not because of his sins but rather because of his disbelief.

 

[hamba2han]

Unfortunately, the Mercy of the Lord does have limits according to both the Qur’an and Bible… and there are indeed certain unforgivable sins in Islam which I am sure that you are familiar with by now.

 

[tomarin]

Unfortunately, the Mercy of the Lord does have limits according to both the Qur’an and Bible… and there are indeed certain unforgivable sins in Islam which I am sure that you are familiar with by now.

Shirk?

 

[hamba2han]

Shirk?

Yeah, that would be a prime example of an unforgivable sin… but the good news is that even this sin will be forgiven if the transgressor sincerely repents and seeks forgiveness from his Lord before he or she dies.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have read that a young man once told Saint Padre Pio that he didn’t believe in hell. The saint told him not to worry; he would when he got there.

Nice quote Joe, I haven’t heard it either.

The evidence is so overwhelming in the confirmation of hells existence today, and this is aside from the Catholic teachings. I actually find it amazing that one doesn’t believe this today. Its certainly an attribute of satans abiltiy to remain unknown and disbelieved.

But as you all see, those days are quickly changing. I honestly believe the first thing we’ll see go is atheism. Satan is becoming so bold and well known in our day, that I believe you’ll either repent or be among those who follow satan. That middle grounds not gonna continue to work.

 

[tomarin]

You might as well offer him (or the good rabbi for that matter) a BLT.

 

[tomarin]

That’s tofurkey, right?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Nice quote Joe, I haven’t heard it either.

The evidence is so overwhelming in the confirmation of hells existence today, and this is aside from the Catholic teachings.

Could you provide this evidence?

I actually find it amazing that one doesn’t believe this today. Its certainly an attribute of satans abiltiy to remain unknown and disbelieved.

God said
Gen2
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Satan said
Gen3
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Most people have decided to believe Satan rather than God.

But as you all see, those days are quickly changing. I honestly believe the first thing we’ll see go is atheism. Satan is becoming so bold and well known in our day, that I believe you’ll either repent or be among those who follow satan.

This has always been the case. Without repentance you are a follower of Satan.

That middle grounds not gonna continue to work.

What middle ground?

 

[BTTG]

interesting. so what you are telling me, is that the hindus and buddhist are correct. this is exactly what they seek. the annialation of the being. you just described nirvana. the bible and tradition teach something else. why else would the bible state the smoke of their torment goes up forever. and also that they shall have no rest day or night. again, just like much of Adventist theology, you have to ignore many passages to come to these views. hell was not intended for men. it was intended for the rebellious angels. man however chose to eat of the tree of knowledge. so there for incurred the penalty for himself. Peace

Good day, thanks be to God.

I believe because we have a loving God that punishment does not go on forever. The " everlasting punishment", or “eternal fire”, is not a process that goes on forever, but an act whose results are permanent.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned them “into ashes” as a warning to “those that after should live ungodly,” 2 Peter 2:6. These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned out. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.

Matthew 25:46 says the wicked will receive “everlasting punishment”?
Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

I believe the rebellious angles are not in hell.

Hell in the following verse is Greek for “tartaroo” which the Greeks considered to be the abode of the wicked dead.

(2Pe 2:4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(Jud 1:6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

If the angles are reserved unto judgment until that great day, how can the angles already be in hell. If the angles are already in hell, they would already be judged. Both of the above verses use symbolism, for how can angles be “chained”.

 

[benidict]

Good day, thanks be to God.

I believe because we have a loving God that punishment does not go on forever. The " everlasting punishment", or “eternal fire”, is not a process that goes on forever, but an act whose results are permanent.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned them “into ashes” as a warning to “those that after should live ungodly,” 2 Peter 2:6. These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned out. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.

Matthew 25:46 says the wicked will receive “everlasting punishment”?
Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

I believe the rebellious angles are not in hell.

Hell in the following verse is Greek for “tartaroo” which the Greeks considered to be the abode of the wicked dead.

(2Pe 2:4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(Jud 1:6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

If the angles are reserved unto judgment until that great day, how can the angles already be in hell. If the angles are already in hell, they would already be judged. Both of the above verses use symbolism, for how can angles be “chained”.

also known as tartarus. yes. the wicked dead, are according to Jesus, and tradition already in a place of torment. apparently Jesus believed in hell. what awaits these wicked angels, and the wicked dead, will be the lake of fire. where, it is written “there will be weeping an gnashing of teeth.” and, " they shall have no rest day or night. and, " the smoke of their torment goes up forever." would you want to take a chance and allow someone to go there? would you not witness to someone like a buddhist, who believes that cessation of existence equals heaven? if we are wrong. then no big deal. but if you are wrong…then its a pretty big deal. Peace

 

[benidict]

Rev.22
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Matt.16
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Luke 12
47And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

The wicked will suffer varying degrees of punishment before they are consumned in the flames.

Isaiah 47
14Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

It says in Isaiah that the wicked will be burned up, they shall become stubble, and after that there will be no more fire. After he fuel for the fire is consumned the fire goes out. It will not be put out by some outward force (quenched). It will simply burn out as the wicked become stubble.

Rev.21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The former things of which hellfire is one will “pass away”

Malachi 4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

It says here in Malachi that the wicked become ashes and stubble. In other words they are consumned, burned up, forever.

good day richard. it is also written in isaiah that " their worm dieth not. i have answered much of this in my post to bttg. again, you have to deny things Jesus said, and what the apostles taught to come to the conclusion that Gods punishment is not eternal. incidentally, why should eternal life be eternal? if hell is not eternal, then why should heaven? i agree with you, that there will be varying degrees of punishment for the wicked dead. just as there will be differing degrees of rewards for those that go to heaven. however both states are eternal. are you saying that people such as hitler, pole pott, stalin, etc. will get away with their crimes. Judaism teaches that at times forgiveness itself is a sin. that though is a discussion for another thread. Peace

 

[BTTG]

also known as tartarus. yes. the wicked dead, are according to Jesus, and tradition already in a place of torment. apparently Jesus believed in hell. what awaits these wicked angels, and the wicked dead, will be the lake of fire. where, it is written “there will be weeping an gnashing of teeth.” and, " they shall have no rest day or night. and, " the smoke of their torment goes up forever." would you want to take a chance and allow someone to go there? would you not witness to someone like a buddhist, who believes that cessation of existence equals heaven? if we are wrong. then no big deal. but if you are wrong…then its a pretty big deal. Peace

I am sorry if I portrayed the wrong impression. The wicked, at the end of the age, will be delivered to the lake of fire, or “hell” on earth.

Would you please provide biblical reference in which Jesus believed in hell.

thank you

 

[BTTG]

good day richard. it is also written in isaiah that " their worm dieth not. i have answered much of this in my post to bttg. again, you have to deny things Jesus said, and what the apostles taught to come to the conclusion that Gods punishment is not eternal. incidentally, why should eternal life be eternal? if hell is not eternal, then why should heaven? i agree with you, that there will be varying degrees of punishment for the wicked dead. just as there will be differing degrees of rewards for those that go to heaven. however both states are eternal. are you saying that people such as hitler, pole pott, stalin, etc. will get away with their crimes. Judaism teaches that at times forgiveness itself is a sin. that though is a discussion for another thread. Peace

In using the KJV of the bible, the word “eternal” refers to that of “life”. There will be eternal life in heaven. Only in Jude is “eternal” used referring to" fire" of Sodom and Gomorrah. No where in the bible is"eternal" used to express an " eternal hell". There is an everlasting “punishment”… a punishment of death into the lake of fire and that death will be everlasting, in that life will not become again at any time.

their worm dieth not- Correct me if I am wrong, I don’t like to assume anything. It is my understanding that you may think that the "worm’ is the “soul”. I believe the “worm” is a symbol of corruption which cannot be purged.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Ben

good day richard. it is also written in isaiah that " their worm dieth not. i have answered much of this in my post to bttg. again, you have to deny things Jesus said, and what the apostles taught to come to the conclusion that Gods punishment is not eternal.

I don’t know where you got the idea that that God’s punishment is not eternal. It certainly was not from me. The bible teaches that we will die and that this death will be for eternity.

incidentally, why should eternal life be eternal? if hell is not eternal, then why should heaven?

Again I didn’t say that hell is not eternal. Hell in the bible is often used to mean the grave or death. After Jesus’ return and the righteous are raised up out of the grave outo eternal life and after the millenium in heaven, the wicked are raised to recieve their sntence and that sentence is to be thrown into the lake of fire where they will recieve the appropriate punishment for their crimes and then they will be burned up, they will be no more, forever. This is what the bible teaches. I have given you many vs. that confirm this.

i agree with you, that there will be varying degrees of punishment for the wicked dead. just as there will be differing degrees of rewards for those that go to heaven. however both states are eternal. are you saying that people such as hitler, pole pott, stalin, etc. will get away with their crimes. Judaism teaches that at times forgiveness itself is a sin. that though is a discussion for another thread. Peace

I don’t understand how you think that death is getting away with their crimes.

Psalm 37
10For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be:
20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Malachi 4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

How can you read these any other way than that the wicked perish, are burned up, consumned, become stubble, and ashes. They DIE FOREVER Ben, but then

Isaiah65
17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[benidict]

I am sorry if I portrayed the wrong impression. The wicked, at the end of the age, will be delivered to the lake of fire, or “hell” on earth.

Would you please provide biblical reference in which Jesus believed in hell.

thank you

plenty of them. read the parables of the wedding feast. or the one of the 10 foolish virgins. how about the those the seperation of the sheep and the goats. of course we have the story of the rich man and lazarus. in many of these parables they are cast into the outer darkness. where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. lets not forget the book of jude. and of course revelation. the new testament is full of references to a place where the wicked dead will suffer for eternity. and if we want to get into the old testament, then remember it is written, that he has placed eternity in our hearts. we are not temporal beings. we will either be ressurected with a glorirfied body, or a corrupt one. one that is designed to please God, and do his will. or a corrupt one. designed to pay the penalty for our own sins, since we rejected his remedy and grace. in short he came to save us from the wrath of God. Peace