MERGED: How is someone who claims to be Christian yet aggressively promotes abortion and "gay marriage"?

[livingwordunity]

Mormon theology and worship practice isn’t compatible with traditional Christian theology. But there are many politicians who aggressively promote abortion and same-sex “marriage” as a “right” yet say they are Christian (Catholic or Protestant). And even on CA forums, if anyone even suggests to doubt whether or not a politician such as this is in fact truly a Christian their account can be suspended for being uncharitable. On this website it’s okay to explain why Mormons aren’t Christian even though I’m sure many of them think that they are and will tell people that they are Christian. There are even apologetics tracts here on Catholic Answers that explain why Mormons can’t be considered Christian, and apparently this isn’t considered uncharitable. So why does there seem to be more tolerance for one over the other when we at least seem to have morality and family values in common with the Mormons while we can’t say the same for the other? By the way, there are a lot of Protestants who either don’t believe in baptizing someone or they do it only in the name of Jesus and not with the Trinitarian form.

 

[Mariem2]

I’m open to correction, but isn’t a Christian someone who believe in the Trinity - Father, Son and Spirit being one God? Do Mormon’s believe that?

Ever since Jesus was on earth, there have been bad Christians, but Christians nonetheless.

 

[livingwordunity]

I’m open to correction, but isn’t a Christian someone who believe in the Trinity - Father, Son and Spirit being one God? Do Mormon’s believe that?

Ever since Jesus was on earth, there have been bad Christians, but Christians nonetheless.

My question isn’t why aren’t Mormon’s considered Christian. My question is why are the ones called Christians (Catholic or Protestant) I described in the OP considered Christian when Mormon’s are not.

 

[PJM]

=livingwordunity;10512964]Mormon theology and worship practice isn’t compatible with traditional Christian theology. But there are many politicians who aggressively promote abortion and same-sex “marriage” as a “right” yet say they are Christian (Catholic or Protestant). And even on CA forums, if anyone even suggests to doubt whether or not a politician such as this is in fact truly a Christian their account can be suspended for being uncharitable. On this website it’s okay to explain why Mormons aren’t Christian even though I’m sure many of them think that they are and will tell people that they are Christian. There are even apologetics tracts here on Catholic Answers that explain why Mormons can’t be considered Christian, and apparently this isn’t considered uncharitable. So why does there seem to be more tolerance for one over the other when we at least seem to have morality and family values in common with the Mormons while we can’t say the same for the other?

TRICKY QUESTION

Must be answered in two ways IMO

1. Mormons because they do not believe in the same God; Jesus as the Son of God and the Trinity are simply “not christians.”
2. ALL “christians” who profess with their lips but not their minds, and hearts; or by their actions support these satonic actions and positions; they are IN NAME ONLY “christians”
   and are effectively as far from heaven as are the Mormons by thier denial of God.

BOTH positions are abhored by our perfect and Just God.

IF [they can’t and don’t] “works” alone could merit heaven the Mormons would have the inside track based on the Morality of thie beliefs.

 

[Mariem2]

Do you mean Christian as in Jesus Christ is one God with the Father and Holy Spirit, or do you mean christian as in loving your neighbour as Jesus taught us? Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists love their neighbour too, but that doesn’t make them Christian.

 

[SteveVH]

TRICKY QUESTION

Must be answered in two ways IMO

1. Mormons because they do not believe in the same God; Jesus as the Son of God and the Trinity are simply “not christians.”
2. ALL “christians” who profess with their lips but not their minds, and hearts; or by their actions support these satonic actions and positions; they are IN NAME ONLY “christians”
   and are effectively as far from heaven as are the Mormons by thier denial of God.

BOTH positions are abhored by our perfect and Just God.

IF [they can’t and don’t] “works” alone could merit heaven the Mormons would have the inside track based on the Morality of thie beliefs.

Exactly. One can live a life sincerely following a false religion. Another can live a life which contradicts the truth of the Church to which they “belong”. Both lead to the same place, although I would say that one who knows the truth and yet rejects it by the way one lives is in even greater danger than the one, who through no fault of their own, follows a false religion.

 

[livingwordunity]

Do you mean Christian as in Jesus Christ is one God with the Father and Holy Spirit, or do you mean christian as in loving your neighbour as Jesus taught us? Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists love their neighbour too, but that doesn’t make them Christian.

What is it that makes someone who aggressively promotes abortion and sodomy a Christian? Is it that as long as someone says they are a Christian or says they believe in the Trinity then they are a Christian even when they aggressively reject the most basic of God’s commandments and encourage others to do the same?

 

[Mariem2]

They are bad Christians. If they have been baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they are Christians. If they reject their baptism, they are heretics. If they don’t live a Christian life, they are sinners. I believe that God will judge bad Christians far more harshly than people who have never been taught how to be a good Christian.

Your question is why are Mormons not considered better Christians than people who don’t live by Christ’s teaching. I believe that anyone who does not profess the Trinity as one God is not Christian, so how can they be **better **Christians if they aren’t Christians to begin with?

 

[SteveVH]

What is it that makes someone who aggressively promotes abortion and sodomy a Christian? Is it that as long as someone says they are a Christian or says they believe in the Trinity then they are a Christian even when they aggressively reject the most basic of God’s commandments and encourage others to do the same?

Obviously they are Christian in name only.

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Mt 7:19-21)

 

[meltzerboy]

What is it that makes someone who aggressively promotes abortion and sodomy a Christian? Is it that as long as someone says they are a Christian or says they believe in the Trinity then they are a Christian even when they aggressively reject the most basic of God’s commandments and encourage others to do the same?

I’m not sure all of those Christians who support the right to abortion and same-sex marriage necessarily “aggressively promote abortion and sodomy.” Some of them may support the right to abortion in certain circumstances only rather than on demand, and some of them may support same-sex marriage not as a moral principle for themselves, but for those Christians, non-Christian believers, and non-believers who believe it to be a legal right, apart from the discussion of its morality. So I think the issue of how Christian these supporters are is more complex than your premise allows.

 

[livingwordunity]

I’m not sure all of those Christians who support the right to abortion and same-sex marriage necessarily “aggressively promote abortion and sodomy.” Some of them may support the right to abortion in certain circumstances only rather than on demand, and they may support same-sex marriage not as a moral principle for themselves, but for those Christians, non-Christian believers, and non-believers who believe it to be a legal right, apart from the discussion of its morality. So I think the issue of how Christian these supporters are is more complex than your premise allows.

When did God ever say that abortion and sodomy are a right?

 

[St_Francis]

Mormon theology and worship practice isn’t compatible with traditional Christian theology. But there are many politicians who aggressively promote abortion and same-sex “marriage” as a “right” yet say they are Christian (Catholic or Protestant). And even on CA forums, if anyone even suggests to doubt whether or not a politician such as this is in fact truly a Christian their account can be suspended for being uncharitable. On this website it’s okay to explain why Mormons aren’t Christian even though I’m sure many of them think that they are and will tell people that they are Christian. There are even apologetics tracts here on Catholic Answers that explain why Mormons can’t be considered Christian, and apparently this isn’t considered uncharitable. So why does there seem to be more tolerance for one over the other when we at least seem to have morality and family values in common with the Mormons while we can’t say the same for the other? By the way, there are a lot of Protestants who either don’t believe in baptizing someone or they do it only in the name of Jesus and not with the Trinitarian form.

This is the problem: you are using two different definitions of the word Christian. This is not an uncommon problem, so we must learn to always be aware of the definitions of the words we are using!

The use of the word Christian for someone who does things like promote abortion is the *formal *meaning: they have been baptized (and whatever other criteria one may have, like attending services or having “been saved,” etc.).

Now, there is a secondary, *informal *meaning if the word Christian which is to be nice, kind, generous… and this is the way the word is being used when you are asking why the noce, kind, generous Mormon (or atheist or Bhuddist) is not considered a Christian.

A Mormon is not considered a Christian because *he *considers himself a Mormon, and Mormons do not believe in the Trinitarian nature of God. Many Mormons are very nice, kind, and generous, and even more pro-life than some who have been baptized and claim to believe in the Trinitarian nature of God, but those Mormons are “Christian” only in the informal sense.

Under the informal sense, one cannot be a bad Christian, because to be bad is to take away the possibility of being “Christian” in the sense of being nice, kind, etc. However, in the formal sense of the word, one can be a bad Christian in many different ways.

HTH!

 

[meltzerboy]

When did God ever say that abortion and sodomy are a right?

Let us say a legal concern rather than a moral issue. As an analogy, people commit adultery, which according to the Abrahamic, Judeo-Christian code of morality is forbidden. However, they are not, to my knowledge, imprisoned for such behavior. They are not violating a legal regulation although they are violating a moral commandment. Same-sex marriage may be thought of by some in the same way.

 

[livingwordunity]

The use of the word Christian for someone who does things like promote abortion is the *formal *meaning: they have been baptized (and whatever other criteria one may have, like attending services or having “been saved,” etc.).

My question isn’t about Christians who struggle with sin. My question is about those who have an ideology and actions that aggressively promote such behavior as a right but who call themselves Christians.

 

[livingwordunity]

Let us say a legal concern rather than a moral issue.

If you say that then it makes it irrelevant to the topic of this thread. The question is about what makes a person a Christian. Since Christians by definition believe in God, and being a Christian means not putting man’s law above God’s law and commandments, we can’t see going against him as merely a legal concern of the state.

 

[SteveVH]

My question is about those who have an ideology and actions that aggressively promote such behavior as a right but who call themselves Christians.

What answer are you looking for? Some people are frauds. A lie is a lie even if one believes it to be true.

 

[Auntie_A]

Can I clarify a part of the problem?

The terms: Mormons and Latter Day Saints vs Mormonism and Mormon Church/LDS;

             Catholics and Christians, vs Catholicism, Christianity. 

 also:     Muslims vs Islam; Buddhists vs Buddhism, etc.

One word describes a set of beliefs, a church; the other describes the people in that church, a set of imperfect humans prone to error. Theoretically a Church may be very strongly based on truth and promoting truth, while a person of that faith could be missing the target by misinterpreting those truths or following more secular thought; or critiquing or casting aspersions at a person of a different faith, a faith which may contain lesser truths and be founded by a more dubious leader.

I notice on this forum certain individuals may forget to differentiate on this issue and thus appear to be struggling with the truths of their own church, as well as attacking individuals rather than religious institutions…

What comes to mind in these situations is the story of the Good Samaritan. Jesus used, as an example of the best kind of charity, a Gentile, of a not-so-loved cult, exceeding two Jewish men in stopping and caring for a hurt and vulnerable traveller. In short, when it comes to needing help or mercy on the road, give me a merciful person first; I’ll check his affiliations later.

But that does not change the truths of the great church or of the smaller cult. Mistruths can lead a people down some dangerous roads no matter how loving its people are. This is where God is the best judge.

Ultimately, if we believe we belong to a great church with the greatest of truths, we must demonstrate God’s Truth to all around us. And avoid the sin of pride in dealing with others. I fail at this regularly.

 

[livingwordunity]

What answer are you looking for? Some people are frauds. A lie is a lie even if one believes it to be true.

I don’t disagree with you. My question is more about why there seems to exist a double standard of opinion about it.

 

[Bran_Stark]

This is the problem: you are using two different definitions of the word Christian. This is not an uncommon problem, so we must learn to always be aware of the definitions of the words we are using!

The use of the word Christian for someone who does things like promote abortion is the *formal *meaning: they have been baptized (and whatever other criteria one may have, like attending services or having “been saved,” etc.).

Now, there is a secondary, *informal *meaning if the word Christian which is to be nice, kind, generous… and this is the way the word is being used when you are asking why the noce, kind, generous Mormon (or atheist or Bhuddist) is not considered a Christian.

A Mormon is not considered a Christian because *he *considers himself a Mormon, and Mormons do not believe in the Trinitarian nature of God. Many Mormons are very nice, kind, and generous, and even more pro-life than some who have been baptized and claim to believe in the Trinitarian nature of God, but those Mormons are “Christian” only in the informal sense.

Under the informal sense, one cannot be a bad Christian, because to be bad is to take away the possibility of being “Christian” in the sense of being nice, kind, etc. However, in the formal sense of the word, one can be a bad Christian in many different ways.

You make a good point about the importance of definitions, but I think you have fallen one short. Yes, there is one sense of “Christian” which means those who are validly baptized, and another sense of “Christian” which means nice and kind, but there is also a third definition in between the two, which means “those whose religion is based on Jesus”. And in my opinion, this one is the most important one.I think it’s very strange to claim that a Mormon and a Buddhist are in the same category regarding their Christianity or lack thereof.

 

[St_Francis]

My question isn’t about Christians who struggle with sin. My question is about those who have an ideology and actions that aggressively promote such behavior as a right but who call themselves Christians.

Sorry, I may have confused you by using an inadequate definition of Christian . Let’s separate the two meanings out by using good and having been baptized into a group which believes in the Trinitarian nature of God.

Someone who has been baptized in such a group can still become very bad and agressively promote abortion. However, a Mormon has not been baptized into such a group, and so cannot be a Christian.

However, a Mormon can still be good, whereas even the baptized-into-a-group-which-believes-in-the-Trinitarian-nature-of-God aggressive promoter of abortion cannot be considered good.