MERGED: How is someone who claims to be Christian yet aggressively promotes abortion and "gay marriage"?

[SteveVH]

That’s true, there are many interpretations for all those things. The way a lot of the letters/gospels/stories are written in the religious texts are often unclear. As a writer myself, I look at some of the quotes or few lines that many religious doctrines are based on and think, “how the heck did they go from point A to point B in their thinking on this?” I guess this is what many people thought when they could finally read the bible themselves for the first time in the 1600’s or so (when was it that the printing press finally made that possible? Sometime around then. Until that point, most people had not read it for themselves, right?)

Hence, many doctrines took a long time to be developed–some took centuries to be established, even. Everything was not so clear cut like a recipe with exact measurements and such.
If only that were so, all would have been easy. No confusion and debate over the last few thousand years!

Actually, the doctrines of the Catholic Church were established before there ever was a Bible. Over the centuries these doctrines have been explained and expounded upon, but they were not created over time, with the exception of the doctrines concerning the Virgin Mary. Even these have always been believed by the Church, however. It possessed the truth contained in the Scriptures before it ever proclaimed the sacred texts as Scripture. That is why the Bible cannot be read apart from the faith from whence it came. As you have so accurately stated, “how the heck did they go from point A to point B in their thinking on this?”

 

[livingwordunity]

And some interpret the writings as saying that there is no Trinity. And some interpret the writings as saying that Christ is not truly present in the Eucharist. And some interpret the writings as justification for spewing their hatred at the funerals of veterans, and on, and on and on… The problem is that there is something called truth which does not change shape according to what one wants to believe or wishes were true.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I can still call them a Christian, that is if they submit to the trinity, the incarnation and other orthodox doctrines, although thtye are severely mistaken and wrong on the issue of gay marriage and Abortion. Quite simply this is due to bad catechism, bad teaching on this matter and letting liberals and social progressives define the religious belief, this should not be allowed.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes…I don’t mean when the books were all put together as a canon in the late 300’s…I meant, when the original gospels/books were first written. I think most were written within the first century after Jesus died?

Right…Mary’s perpetual virginity, not official doctrine until…end of 2nd century? (tho early Christian authors Helvidius, Tertullian and Victorinus were vocal about not being in agreement of this doctrine’s evolution)

I thought that the doctrine of the “trinity” was not established until much later on?

(I understand that the word and concept didn’t clearly appear in the original Greek manuscripts of the gospels…but clarified later in only 1 John, chapter 5, verses 7-8 in the Latin version that Erasamus put together in 1516 after he was told to add it in…and then the King James was translated from that Latin version. Which opens the floor to many questions. But we digress, this would be a whole other thread…)

The Gospels were not put together as a canon in the 300s, their acceptance amongst the church is present since Iraneaus and he bares witness to other churches accross the world proclaiming these gospels. Not to mention the early patristics located elsewhere also quote them as authoritative. There was no universal canon rather there was a consensus on which books were authoratative which was consilidated over time, but differences still exist even today in the most ancient churches in regaurds to the canon. Orthodox have about 76, although there is no official canon that was proclaimed at an eccumenical council.

As for the doctrine of the trinity, its definition is later on. We can’t think of the fathers of Nicea as people who suddenly just wanted to invent doctrine for no reason. This was the result of conflcit within the church which forced the church to decide on whether or not he son was co eternal and co existent with the father, and even after Nicea people still said the son was created and went on to deny the Holy spirit.

 

[JonNC]

=gnosisofthomas;10539855]You may not care if anyone outside of your church recognizes it, but if your spouse were dying in the hospital you could be prevented from visiting her because you’re not family, leaving her to die alone. I guess you could hope that she’d never have to go to a non-Catholic hospital!

On what grounds? And if there are laws, then those laws can be changed.

You’re absolutely right, but it also gets very expensive setting all those things up. Wills can, and often are contested… particularly if the family of the deceased doesn’t like your spouse. Then there are other issues like tax benefits (good luck getting that flat tax any time soon!) and health insurance. You’d be basically making “marriage” a privilege of the rich, and making the poor suffer even more than they are now by these changes.

Again, your talking about laws, not marriage. In California, same gender couples have essentially the same rights regarding these things as married couples. Is it your contention that wills today are discriminatory, or that they would be less expensive if same gender “marriage” were legal?

I’m sure age of consent has been an issue of concern to some people, but still, states are required to recognize the heterosexual marriages that are legal in other states regardless. DOMA specifically allows them to ignore one type of marriage. We are states in union with each other, and DOMA creates a division in the union.

Why should one state have to recognize another’s marriage? If marriage were the purview of the Church, the situation would be mute. There are lots of things that differ from one state to another. Its a union, not a social democracy, and each state is a sovereign state. If you recall, my point is the general government should not involve itself in marriage, and that would include DOMA.

The fact is, there is legal marriage and there is religious marriage – the two forms of marriage exist, whether you like it or not. Personally, I wish we did what other countries do and keep the two forms separate… so that you have your civil marriage to get the legal rights, and you have your religious ceremony separately. But it doesn’t work that way here, and it doesn’t look like that will change any time soon.

Sounds like you agree with me, after all. If the secular government wishes to legislate (at the state level), forms of civil unions, ok.

Jon

 

[CMatt25]

And some interpret the writings as saying that there is no Trinity. And some interpret the writings as saying that Christ is not truly present in the Eucharist. And some interpret the writings as justification for spewing their hatred at the funerals of veterans, and on, and on and on… The problem is that there is something called truth which does not change shape according to what one wants to believe or wishes were true.

No that’s not the problem. It takes *faith *for anyone to believe they “know” what the one truth is. That’s why they’re called faiths. Catholics believe they know the truth. But they first must place faith in God and then in the NT story of Christ. Then have faith in the Catholic Church’s interpretation of Herself. In Her interpretation of the writers of Scripture. In Her interpretation of Scripture. In Her interpretation of the early Christians, of the early Church, of ECFs and of history. It’s called the Catholic faith.

And others have a different faith as to what truth is.

If in the Christian faith He comes again, then we’ll know for certain whose faith was completely right, if any. Whose was wrong. What truly mattered.

In the meantime people walk by faith not by sight. That’s just a fact of life on earth. Peace in your faith journey.