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edward_george
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Mea culpa. I spoke too soon.
MERGED: Immaculate Conception Holy Day in the USA and Obligation
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Vico
Guest
The canon law distinguishes between the feast day itself and the evening of the preceding day. The General Norms define the feast day as midnight to midnight with observance beginning on the evening of the previous day. The canon law allows the obligation to be met beginning on the evening of the previous day, through the feast day itself, which is defined as midnight to midnight in both sources. So this allows more than 24 hours.
CICCan. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
Can. 1248 — § 1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico vel ipso die festo vel vespere diei praecedentis.
General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar (Prot. 0) February 14, 1969 states:I. The Liturgical Day in General 3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the divine office. The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.
The CIC canons 1244-1253 pertain to the “feast” days of Sundays and holy days of obligation instead (which are solemnities). (See p. 1442, New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law: Study Edition, By John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, Thomas Joseph Green.)
CICCan. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
Can. 1248 — § 1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico vel ipso die festo vel vespere diei praecedentis.
General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar (Prot. 0) February 14, 1969 states:I. The Liturgical Day in General 3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the divine office. The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.
The CIC canons 1244-1253 pertain to the “feast” days of Sundays and holy days of obligation instead (which are solemnities). (See p. 1442, New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law: Study Edition, By John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, Thomas Joseph Green.)
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Pug
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If Sunday well and truly begins on Saturday at 4pm, then why are we not resting then? Universally I’ve been told the obligation to rest is on Sunday itself, and not from the start of the 4pm mass on Saturday. Surely we would be resting if it were really Sunday.
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Pug
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Vico, are you trying to point out that it says either on the feast day itself or the evening of the preceding day, and that this word choice implies a disjunction between the feast day itself and the evening of the day that precedes it, namely that the feast day itself does not actually include the evening before it, but that that evening is part of the previous day?
If so, are you arguing that Sunday is a feast day, and those canons are for feast days like Sunday and Holy Days, so those canons understand the feast day of Sunday to be on Sunday itself, and not partly on Saturday? Thus Saturday, the entire whole of it is Dec 8, the feast of the Immaculate Conception?
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Lapey
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As has been pointed out by Fr. David, if this is what Vico is saying, he is mistaken. The feast day of IC on the 8th ends at 4 PM Saturday because teh feast day of Sunday takes precidence at that time of first vespers, or 4PM.
So, the 4 PM Mass does count for Sunday, but not IC. Mass before 4 PM Saturday counts for IC and not Sunday.
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Vico
Guest
What the documents state is that the liturgical day (given in the norms) and a day (given in canon law) is midnight to midnight. So we should speak of a day that way. There is another concept of celebration (from the norms), and yet another of fulfilling an obligation (from the canon law). The canon law clearly states that the obligation is met on the day itself (midnight to midnight) or the previous evening. Liturgical norms about celebration times does not pertain to meeting the obligation.
The solemnity day is December 8, midnight to midnight. The liturgical celebration of the Immaculate Conception begins on December 7 evening. The holy day obligation is met anytime from December 7 evening through midnight end of December 8.
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Digitonomy
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FrDavid96
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I think we all agree that the Feast of the Immaculate Conception ends at Evening Prayer I on Saturday evening–when the 2nd Sunday of Advent begins. In terms of the liturgical calendar (as such) the Church is clear on this.
I don’t say that I disagree with Vico. The differences in what we’re saying are subtle; and that’s why I made it a point to break apart my first post into what the law actually says in part 1, and my opinion on applying it in part 2. The law is what it is, but my opinion is subject to change.
The obligation of the priest to celebrate the proper Mass for the time is one thing–on that I have no doubt that what I stated earlier is what the Church requires. But when it comes to whether or not a person fulfills the obligation for Immaculate Conception by attending the Saturday evening Mass, I still have my opinion, but I’m also listening to (logical and reasonable, and let’s not forget polite
) discussion here.It’s late, so I’ll leave it at that for the moment. Tomorrow’s a busy day at the office, so if I’m late responding, take no offense.
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Lapey
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Negative ghost rider the pattern is full…
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Lapey
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No offense taken Father…but my pastor and most importantly my bishop and least importantly myself, disagree with some. The requirement of the IC feast must be met before the Evening Prayer I, of before the Sunday vigil, which is 4.I think we all agree that the Feast of the Immaculate Conception ends at Evening Prayer I on Saturday evening–when the 2nd Sunday of Advent begins. In terms of the liturgical calendar (as such) the Church is clear on this.
I don’t say that I disagree with Vico. The differences in what we’re saying are subtle; and that’s why I made it a point to break apart my first post into what the law actually says in part 1, and my opinion on applying it in part 2. The law is what it is, but my opinion is subject to change.
The obligation of the priest to celebrate the proper Mass for the time is one thing–on that I have no doubt that what I stated earlier is what the Church requires. But when it comes to whether or not a person fulfills the obligation for Immaculate Conception by attending the Saturday evening Mass, I still have my opinion, but I’m also listening to (logical and reasonable, and let’s not forget polite
It’s late, so I’ll leave it at that for the moment. Tomorrow’s a busy day at the office, so if I’m late responding, take no offense.
But I do agree with one part of your post where you stated that if a person could not make it to Mass, work or other legit reason then there would be no sin for the miss. But I don’t thin kthis was the OP’s question.
Anyway, peace Father!
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anp1215
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In those years I was not born, not born, one year old, six years old, and twelve years old, so it’s new to me.
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anp1215
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If you can’t fulfill an obligation for one holy day by going at say 8 pm that night because the holy day is over, then how are we fulfilling our obligation for regular Sunday Mass by going on Sunday night? Wouldn’t it be no longer Sunday, but Monday?
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Vico
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The vigil history is shown in Eucharisticum Mysterium, Instruction on Eucharistic Worship Sacred Congregation of Rites. May 25, 1967.
- Anticipating the Sunday and Feast Day Masses on the Previous Evening: Where permission has been granted by the Apostolic See to fulfill the Sunday obligation on the preceding Saturday evening, pastors should explain the meaning of this permission carefully to the faithful and should ensure that the significance of Sunday is not thereby obscured. The purpose of this concession is in fact to enable the Christians of today to celebrate more easily the day of the resurrection of the Lord.
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In these cases the Mass celebrated is that assigned in the calendar to Sunday, the homily and the prayer of the faithful are not to be omitted.
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The faithful who begin to celebrate the Sunday or holy day of obligation on the preceding evening may go to Communion at that Mass even if they have already received Communion in the morning.
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Vico
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The vigil history is shown in Eucharisticum Mysterium (Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery) from Sacred Congregation for Rites**:**
All concessions and contrary customs notwithstanding, when celebrated on Saturday this Mass may be celebrated only in the evening, at times determined by the local Ordinary.
In these cases the Mass celebrated is that assigned in the calendar to Sunday, the homily and the prayer of the faithful are not to be omitted.
What has been said above is equally valid for the Mass on holy days of obligation which for the same reason has been transferred to the preceding evening.
The Mass celebrated on the evening before Pentecost Sunday is the present Mass of the Vigil, with the Creed. Likewise, the Mass celebrated on the evening of Christmas Eve is the Mass of the Vigil but with white vestments, the Alleluia and the Preface of the Nativity, as on the feast. Nevertheless it is not permitted to celebrate the Vigil Mass of Easter Sunday before dusk on Holy Saturday, certainly not before sunset.
This Mass is always that of the Easter Vigil, which, by reason of its special significance in the liturgical year and in the whole Christian life, must be celebrated with the liturgical rites laid down for the Vigil on this holy night.
The faithful who begin to celebrate the Sunday or holy day of obligation on the preceding evening may go to Communion at that Mass even if they have already received Communion in the morning. Those who "have received Communion during the Mass of the Easter Vigil, or during the Mass of the Lord’s Nativity, may receive Communion again at the second Easter Mass and at one of the Masses on Christmas Day."80 Likewise “the faithful who go to Communion at the Mass of Chrism on Holy Thursday may again receive Communion at the evening Mass of the same day,” in accordance with the Instruction Tres abhinc annos of May 4, 1967, no. 14.
adoremus.org/eucharisticummysterium.html
- Anticipating the Sunday and Feast Day Masses on the Previous Evening
All concessions and contrary customs notwithstanding, when celebrated on Saturday this Mass may be celebrated only in the evening, at times determined by the local Ordinary.
In these cases the Mass celebrated is that assigned in the calendar to Sunday, the homily and the prayer of the faithful are not to be omitted.
What has been said above is equally valid for the Mass on holy days of obligation which for the same reason has been transferred to the preceding evening.
The Mass celebrated on the evening before Pentecost Sunday is the present Mass of the Vigil, with the Creed. Likewise, the Mass celebrated on the evening of Christmas Eve is the Mass of the Vigil but with white vestments, the Alleluia and the Preface of the Nativity, as on the feast. Nevertheless it is not permitted to celebrate the Vigil Mass of Easter Sunday before dusk on Holy Saturday, certainly not before sunset.
This Mass is always that of the Easter Vigil, which, by reason of its special significance in the liturgical year and in the whole Christian life, must be celebrated with the liturgical rites laid down for the Vigil on this holy night.
The faithful who begin to celebrate the Sunday or holy day of obligation on the preceding evening may go to Communion at that Mass even if they have already received Communion in the morning. Those who "have received Communion during the Mass of the Easter Vigil, or during the Mass of the Lord’s Nativity, may receive Communion again at the second Easter Mass and at one of the Masses on Christmas Day."80 Likewise “the faithful who go to Communion at the Mass of Chrism on Holy Thursday may again receive Communion at the evening Mass of the same day,” in accordance with the Instruction Tres abhinc annos of May 4, 1967, no. 14.
adoremus.org/eucharisticummysterium.html
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Phemie
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How many people have actually experienced a “Vigil of the Nativity” on Christmas Eve? Every single Mass I’ve ever attended between 5 p.m. and midnight has been the Mass During the Night.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Good point. The reason is because Monday (if it’s just a regular ole’ Monday) doesn’t begin on the evening before. Only Sundays and Solemnities begin the evening before. Many parishes have regularly scheduled Sunday evening or even night Masses; be assured that these do fulfill the Sunday obligation.
What’s causing the “confusion” here is the fact that we have 2 Solemnities one right after the other.
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MissRose73
Guest
Part of that has to do with the role of Mary as the Patron Saint of the United State.
Countries often have the Feast Days of their National Patron as Holy Days of Obligation. Examples are St. Patrick’s Day in Ireland, and the Feast of SS Cyril and Methodius in a lot of Eastern Europe.
Given that, The Feast of the Immaculate Conception and the Feast of the Nativity of Mary both have a special relationship to St. Anne, the Patron of Canada.
So petition your Bishops to have those as Holy Days of Obligation
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FrDavid96
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In any case…
I’m going to leave the discussion now.
Some parting comments:
Having read the posts here, I do think that the question of “does Mass on Saturday evening fulfill the Immaculate Conception obligation?” is something that would make an excellent topic for a question submitted to the Congregation for Diving Worship (CDWDS).
I do sincerely believe that the whole development of the understanding of the Liturgical Day, which changed (evolved? revolved?) with the current Code of Canon Law, still leaves some questions unanswered, or at least simply not quite clear.
Since many US bishops have issued communications that attending the Mass on Sat. evening does not fulfill the 2nd Sunday of Advent obligation, while I’ve read some logical and thoughtful comments here defending the opposite position, I’m not as convinced as I was a few days ago. Do the bishops have some clear directives from the Holy See that posters here (seemingly) are unaware? Or are the bishops all getting their information from the same source, but that source got it wrong (I don’t mean the Holy See, I mean “some source”)? Maybe the bishops who have decided the other way just don’t post their liturgical bulletins online? That’s why I’m leaving the discussion here. Those are questions best not asked by a priest in a public forum open to anyone with an internet connection–too much possibility for misunderstanding. I’ll be watching but not posting.
The bishop is the chief liturgist for his diocese. The directives from my own bishop were sent out to us and it’s clear where he stands. In my own parish, that’s what I’ll be applying.
Blessed Advent everyone!
I’m going to leave the discussion now.
Some parting comments:
Having read the posts here, I do think that the question of “does Mass on Saturday evening fulfill the Immaculate Conception obligation?” is something that would make an excellent topic for a question submitted to the Congregation for Diving Worship (CDWDS).
I do sincerely believe that the whole development of the understanding of the Liturgical Day, which changed (evolved? revolved?) with the current Code of Canon Law, still leaves some questions unanswered, or at least simply not quite clear.
Since many US bishops have issued communications that attending the Mass on Sat. evening does not fulfill the 2nd Sunday of Advent obligation, while I’ve read some logical and thoughtful comments here defending the opposite position, I’m not as convinced as I was a few days ago. Do the bishops have some clear directives from the Holy See that posters here (seemingly) are unaware? Or are the bishops all getting their information from the same source, but that source got it wrong (I don’t mean the Holy See, I mean “some source”)? Maybe the bishops who have decided the other way just don’t post their liturgical bulletins online? That’s why I’m leaving the discussion here. Those are questions best not asked by a priest in a public forum open to anyone with an internet connection–too much possibility for misunderstanding. I’ll be watching but not posting.
The bishop is the chief liturgist for his diocese. The directives from my own bishop were sent out to us and it’s clear where he stands. In my own parish, that’s what I’ll be applying.
Blessed Advent everyone!
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FrDavid96
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OK. One last comment
Just because you did ask: for my own part, yes, I do follow the proper schedule for the evening and “in the night” Masses at my own parishes every year. Frankly, most of the priest I know also do it that way. It depends on one’s personal experience.
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Liturgy_Geek_1
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Why is it that some are fascinated with being able to “buy one get one free” when it comes to the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception and the 2nd Sunday of Advent? It is really that big of a burden to give an hour to Our Lord two days in a row?
C’mon people! Think of all the blessings Our Lord bestows on us. Is going to Mass two days in a row really that much of Him to ask of us?
C’mon people! Think of all the blessings Our Lord bestows on us. Is going to Mass two days in a row really that much of Him to ask of us?
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