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Vico
Guest
The Church is clear that there are two obligations there, so two Masses. One could be on Saturday evening and the other on Sunday.
MERGED: Immaculate Conception Holy Day in the USA and Obligation
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Deacon2Be
Guest
I’ve always found Tim to be a voice of reason here.
My question is more philosophical I guess…I get the obey the laws of the Church, follow the direction of the Pope, Bishops, etc., and I do; but in this case, if you make your best efforts and get to 2 Masses sometime between Friday night and Sunday night, do you really think God cares which Masses you attend?
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Pug
Guest
I have. Our parish observes a difference. If you want the readings for the midnight mass, you have to go to the last mass on Christmas Eve. The first one has a different feel to the readings.
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Pug
Guest
I would like to post the canon law commentary that I read about this, but I realize that it may not be written with enough elaboration to cover all possible concerns, though it ought to be. The commentary is as follows
The obligation to participate in the Mass may be satisfied at any time during the twenty-four hours of the feast day itself, or on the evening before it. “Evening” should be understood as anytime from 4:00 P.M. onward…the precept may be satisfied at any Catholic Mass, i.e., not only when the texts are those of the Sunday or holy day…
pg 1445 New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law study edition edited by Beal, Coriden, and Green.
My concern with the commentary is that the example they choose to give is of a wedding mass on Sat eve, and not of a collision of Sunday with a holy day. (I don’t know how much of a copyright thing I am allowed to type in, so I left that part out).
The obligation to participate in the Mass may be satisfied at any time during the twenty-four hours of the feast day itself, or on the evening before it. “Evening” should be understood as anytime from 4:00 P.M. onward…the precept may be satisfied at any Catholic Mass, i.e., not only when the texts are those of the Sunday or holy day…
pg 1445 New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law study edition edited by Beal, Coriden, and Green.
My concern with the commentary is that the example they choose to give is of a wedding mass on Sat eve, and not of a collision of Sunday with a holy day. (I don’t know how much of a copyright thing I am allowed to type in, so I left that part out).
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Lapey
Guest
Wedding Mass issues are precisely why our bishop does not allow a Saturday wedding to start after 2PM.
But since you bring this up…I can remember going to Saturday evening Masses where it did meet the Sunday obligation, cannot remember though which texts were used. Could have been either wedding readings or Sunday, I am losing my memory…
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in_servitude
Guest
Ticky/Tacky question.
I have recently become aware that the Church has various kinds of celebrations:
Today (November 30th), it refers to today’s celebration as, “Feast of Saint Andrew, Apostle.”
December 8th is treated as a solemnity from the Liturgy of the Hours point of view while November 30th is treated as a feast - different prayer form for these different kinds of celebrations.
It seems like an error to mix “feast” and “solemnity”, especially since solemnity is the more significant celebration. Are these words in fact interchangeable?
Thanks!!
I have recently become aware that the Church has various kinds of celebrations:
- Solemnity
- Feast
- Memorial
- Commemoration
Today (November 30th), it refers to today’s celebration as, “Feast of Saint Andrew, Apostle.”
December 8th is treated as a solemnity from the Liturgy of the Hours point of view while November 30th is treated as a feast - different prayer form for these different kinds of celebrations.
It seems like an error to mix “feast” and “solemnity”, especially since solemnity is the more significant celebration. Are these words in fact interchangeable?
Thanks!!
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twf
Guest
A solemnity is simply a solemn or great feast. All solemnities are feasts but not all feasts are solemnities 
. Typically we refer to the “feast of such and such” as prior to the liturgical reforms of 1970, what we now call solemnities were known as “first class” feasts.
. Typically we refer to the “feast of such and such” as prior to the liturgical reforms of 1970, what we now call solemnities were known as “first class” feasts.
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Vico
Guest
In this case of December 8 on Saturday, where we are obligated to this holy day, there is refrain from labor on both Saturday and Sunday, midnight to midnight, even though the liturgical celebration on the previous evening has been allowed to fulfill the Mass obligation to the days themselves.
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Vico
Guest
Also if the day does not fall into one of the other categories it is called ferial. I see that the canons mention feast and solemnity also:
From CIC (Latin Catholic) canon law:
Feast Days
Can. 1246
§1. Sunday, on which by apostolic tradition the paschal mystery is celebrated, must be observed in the universal Church as the primordial holy day of obligation. The following days must also be observed: the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension, the Body and Blood of Christ, Holy Mary the Mother of God, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, Saint Joseph, Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles, and All Saints.
From CCEO (eastern Catholic) canon law:
Canon 199
2. …also, in any parish if possible, the divine praises are to be celebrated on Sundays, feast days, principal solemnities and their vigils.
Canon 880
3. Holy days of obligation common to all the Eastern Churches, beyond Sundays, are the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension, the Dormition of the Holy Mary Mother of God and the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul except for the particular law of a Church sui iuris approved by the Apostolic See which suppresses a holy days of obligation or transfers them to a Sunday.
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anp1215
Guest
OK thanks for the answer, because I have fulfilled many a Sunday obligation by going on Sunday night.
Now to complicate things more
What if Immaculate Conception was on Monday? A Sunday night Mass would fulfill the Immaculate Conception obligation right? But not the Sunday obligation?
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anp1215
Guest
I keep seeing this type of answer pop up, and I’m not sure why. Is anyone here really trying to do this? Because all I’m seeing are legitimate questions on which Masses satisfy the obligation for which day. Not “Can I get a two for one because I don’t want to go to Mass twice.”
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Vico
Guest
For Latin Catholics, the USCCB decided to transfer the 2013 Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception from Sunday to Monday December 9, 2013, but have abrogated it for that instance (so it is not obligatory). (Since it is transferred it is not obligatory.) Back in 2008, when it occurred on Monday, it remained a holy day of obligation.
In 2008, Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston had this announcement:
SOLEMNITY OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION: Monday, December 8, is the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and it is a** Holy Day of Obligation**. Even if it is a Monday, the obligation is maintained by The National Conference of Catholic Bishops, because Our Lady under this title is the Patroness of the United States. She is also the Patroness of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. Masses for the Solemnity of Mary will be: VIGIL, Sunday Evening, December 7th, at 5:00 p.m. Masses for Monday, December 8th are 8:00 a.m., 12:05 p.m. and 5:00 p.m., Vietnamese Mass at 6:30 p.m. The faithful need to fulfill the Sunday Obligation for the 2nd Sunday in Advent by coming to Mass on the Saturday Vigil, December 6, at 5:00 p.m. or Sunday at 8:00 a.m., 9:30 a.m., 11:00 a.m. or 12:30 p.m. Please be aware that the Sunday Evening Mass on December 7, is not a Sunday Mass but a Vigil for the Immaculate Conception. The faithful may not fulfill two separate obligations participating in a single Mass.
holyrosaryparish.org/bulletin/2008/12-07.pdf
In 2008, Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston had this announcement:
SOLEMNITY OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION: Monday, December 8, is the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and it is a** Holy Day of Obligation**. Even if it is a Monday, the obligation is maintained by The National Conference of Catholic Bishops, because Our Lady under this title is the Patroness of the United States. She is also the Patroness of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. Masses for the Solemnity of Mary will be: VIGIL, Sunday Evening, December 7th, at 5:00 p.m. Masses for Monday, December 8th are 8:00 a.m., 12:05 p.m. and 5:00 p.m., Vietnamese Mass at 6:30 p.m. The faithful need to fulfill the Sunday Obligation for the 2nd Sunday in Advent by coming to Mass on the Saturday Vigil, December 6, at 5:00 p.m. or Sunday at 8:00 a.m., 9:30 a.m., 11:00 a.m. or 12:30 p.m. Please be aware that the Sunday Evening Mass on December 7, is not a Sunday Mass but a Vigil for the Immaculate Conception. The faithful may not fulfill two separate obligations participating in a single Mass.
holyrosaryparish.org/bulletin/2008/12-07.pdf
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Pug
Guest
The phenomenon that you are noticing is one reason that it sometimes can be a bad idea to ask questions locally. I’d rather you all decided I was asking something I’m not than people I have to deal with every day deciding it.
And I’m sorry the threads got merged. I find it very hard to sort them back out and follow what was going on. So if I skip something I shouldn’t, I apologize.
And I have read all the links Fr. David gave me, and thank you. I’m still processing all the info. I found the link from Youngstown to be the clearest. Clearly some people in some dioceses are seeing it a certain way. I find it frustrating that the Chicago link choses to tell one that you cannot fulfill two days with one mass on Saturday evening, when it could have answered my question directly and still clearly communicated the info about no twofer on Sat evening if they had chosen to say that the Saturday evening mass does not fulfill the holy day obligation under any circumstances, which would clearly preclude it being used to fulfill both obligations. I didn’t find the Cleveland link to be designed to clearly answer my question, though it does say what readings, etc. will be used.
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Pug
Guest
:console:Eventually we lose so much memory we can’t tell it’s gone, so I think you’re in good shape yet!Wedding Mass issues are precisely why our bishop does not allow a Saturday wedding to start after 2PM.
But since you bring this up…I can remember going to Saturday evening Masses where it did meet the Sunday obligation, cannot remember though which texts were used. Could have been either wedding readings or Sunday, I am losing my memory…
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maryjk
Guest
Thank you. That is what I was reading.
I normally attend Mass on Saturday night. So my plan was Friday night and Saturday night for Mass. Just trying to read through the thread to see if that would work.
I’m not trying to get out of anything, just making sure my plan works.
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anp1215
Guest
I think some are not reading carefully, or see the type of question and assume someone is trying to “get out of something” without reading the actual question.Thank you. That is what I was reading.
I normally attend Mass on Saturday night. So my plan was Friday night and Saturday night for Mass. Just trying to read through the thread to see if that would work.
I’m not trying to get out of anything, just making sure my plan works.
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buc_fan33
Guest
No, for the same reason that Mass Saturday evening does NOT fulfill the obligation attached to the Solemnity of the Immculate Conception. I believe that Fr. David posted this, and he is exactly correct. There is a ranking system that determines what feast day/solemnity takes precedence.OK thanks for the answer, because I have fulfilled many a Sunday obligation by going on Sunday night.
Now to complicate things more
What if Immaculate Conception was on Monday? A Sunday night Mass would fulfill the Immaculate Conception obligation right? But not the Sunday obligation?
Number one is the Easter Triduum…nothing trumps these days.
Number two includes, among other things, Sundays of Advent. Effectively, nothing trumps a Sunday in Advent, since the Triduum will obviously never fall during Advent. This becomes a problem in some Hispanic communities when December 12 is a Sunday, and you have to explain why the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe is not celebrated in a given year.
Number three includes Solemnities of the Blessed Virgin (I.e. Immaculate Conception). These are important, but they are trumped by Sundays in Advent. The Second Sunday in Advent begins, liturgically, with the praying of Evening Prayer I. This also ENDS the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. In other words, IC this year is not 36 hours (6:00 p.m. December 7 to 12:00 a.m. December 9), but rather 24 hours (~6:00 p.m. December 7 to 6:00 p.m. December 8). So, it seems pretty clear to me that one must go to Mass ON IC. Going to the anticipatory Mass for the Second Sunday in Advent does not count, as that is no longer the Solemnity of IC.
Now, to your other question about what happens when the solemnity is on a Monday. Again, the Second Sunday in Advent takes precedence. So, rather than begin with Evening Prayer One, there is no EP I of the Immaculate Conception that year. Likewise, there would be no anticipated Mass. Rather, the faithful must find a Mass between 12:00 a.m. and 11:59 p.m. On Monday December 8.
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Vico
Guest
New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law: Study Edition By John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, Thomas Joseph Green. p. 1445 states on CIC Canon 1248:“The obligation to participate in the Mass may be satisfied at any time during the twenty-four hours of the feast day itself or on the evening before it. “Evening” should be understood as anytime from 4 P.M. onward. 82 The legislator uses the word “evening” (vesper), not “afternoon” (post merediem); in keeping with the proper meaning of the word (c.f. c. 17), an afternoon Mass before 4 P.M. does not satisfy the obligation. The precept may be satisfied at any Catholic Mass, i.e. not only when the texts are those of Sunday or holy day. For example, attendance at a wedding Mass after 4:00 P.M. on a Saturday fulfills the Sunday obligation.”
Also note that both the Latin Catholic canon law and the eastern Catholic canon law contain the same time period:
CCEO Canon 881
- The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
- In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
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buc_fan33
Guest
Right. I don’t dispute that, except that in this case, the feast day ends on the evening of December 8. As soon as EP I of the Second Sunday of Advent is prayed, the Solemnity of the Immaculte Conception is over. I wrote ~6:00 to avoid confusion about what constitutes “evening.” As you said, the Church has come to understand that as 4:00. So, I guess I should modify what I said and note that the faithful have from 4:00 p.m. on Friday, December 7 to 4:00 p.m. Saturday, December 8 to attend Mass for the Immaculate Conception.
I see this canon quoted often and I would suggest that we need to consider BOTH the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The letter of the law says you have to attend A Mass on IC. The spirit of the law would indicate that it ought to actually be the Mass for the Immacualte Conception, with the prescribed readings and proper prayers. Otherwise, why have them in the Missal at all?
Take another example. What if Christmas is on a Monday? Christmas would trump a Sunday in Advent, so I misspoke in my earlier post. In years when Christmas falls on a Monday, the Fourth Sunday of Advent ends with the praying of EP I of Christmas. Given that Advent is a time of preparation for the season of Christmas, it doesn’t seem correct to me to suggest that one could fulfill his obligation for the 4th Sunday of Advent that evening because the Mass celebrated would be the Vigil of Christmas, not the Mass of the 4th Sunday in Advent.
Given that this is a relatively uncommon occurrence, my bet is that the CIC is not considering this situation in the above canon. Even if it is, we have to consider BOTH Canon Law and liturgical law. Liturgical law is pretty clear when a celebration begins and ends. In this case, liturgical law is clear that the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is over as of ~4:00 Saturday, December 8.
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denitaA
Guest
This may be a stupid question, but is the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of of those Holy Days of Obligation that was transferred to Sunday in the OF Mass? I know the Feast falls on Saturday this year, and I go to an FSSP Mass, but I have a conflict on that day involving a Christmas party with my Catholic women’s group, most of whom are “modern.” What do I do? There is a Mass on Saturday, but it’s the same time as the party, and if I go on Sunday, my FSSP parish won’t celebrate the feast of course. I’m more worried what the ladies will think if I tell them why I cant go to the party.:doh2:
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