MERGED: Immaculate Conception Holy Day in the USA and Obligation

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SMHW said:
My overall point (I was more or less trying to agree with you) was that the answers weren’t fitting the question.

Saying, “just go both days,” makes the assumption that we understand what we mean by “day”. In fact, what we are trying to resolve is the application of competing definitions of the word “day”.

“Just go both days,” sounds like an answer to a question about how many times one should go to Mass rather than to a question about how to go to Mass twice and make sure that one has gone two on different days rather than twice on the same day.
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Hmm, OK maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.
 
buc_fan33 said:
…

I see this canon quoted often and I would suggest that we need to consider BOTH the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The letter of the law says you have to attend A Mass on IC. The spirit of the law would indicate that it ought to actually be the Mass for the Immacualte Conception, with the prescribed readings and proper prayers. Otherwise, why have them in the Missal at all?
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Given that this is a relatively uncommon occurrence, my bet is that the CIC is not considering this situation in the above canon. Even if it is, we have to consider BOTH Canon Law and liturgical law. Liturgical law is pretty clear when a celebration begins and ends. In this case, liturgical law is clear that the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is over as of ~4:00 Saturday, December 8.
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Hello,

The letter of the law is such that it makes it as easy as possible for the faithful to fulfill their obligation to participate in Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of obligation, giving them at least 30 hours to do so, at any Catholic Mass.

The spirit of the law can be seen in the discussions surrounding the formulation of the canon, where the commission purposefully left the language broad so that the faithful would not be scrupulous/casuist in looking at particular scenarios. I can’t believe that the Legislator would want to say that someone who went to Mass at 6 pm on Saturday, December 8, and 6 pm on Sunday did not fulfill the obligation for Saturday, December 8.

Liturgical law determines what Mass is celebrated. The Code of Canon Law determines what the obligation to participate in Mass is and when it can be fulfilled. If liturgists discussed this issue with canon lawyers, the statements made (such as referenced earlier) might look different. I think about 99% of canon lawyers would say that any Catholic Mass attended at any time on December 8 can fulfill the obligation to participate in Mass on the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception.

Thanks for your time.
Dan (jcl…I’ll throw that degree in there for good measure.)
 
Well, I appreciate everyone’s responses. Vicio and Dan, though I disagree with you, I appreciate your opinion. Dan, I appreciate your expertise on Canon Law. I will be the first to admit that I am not a canonist. I’ve had my six credits and that’s it. Vico, perhaps you are an expert as well and I am simply unaware. In any event, expert or not, I value your opinion.
 
buc_fan33 said:
Well, I appreciate everyone’s responses. Vicio and Dan, though I disagree with you, I appreciate your opinion. Dan, I appreciate your expertise on Canon Law. I will be the first to admit that I am not a canonist. I’ve had my six credits and that’s it. Vico, perhaps you are an expert as well and I am simply unaware. In any event, expert or not, I value your opinion.
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Actually I did not present a personal opinion, only that of the canon law commentary I quoted from and the factual posting of the canons.
 
I have to admit…I still have a problem with the way the canon is being interpreted. Namely, I don’t see any interpretation taking into account the fact that the evening of December 8 this year is NOT the feast of the Immaculate Conception.

I did a quick Google search and found a number of diocesan liturgy offices around the country that seem to support this position. I must admit, that I did not find any suggesting an anticipatory Mass for the Second Sunday of Advent could meet the obligation. Tonight at Mass, I told my parishioners that they must go to Mass between Friday evening and Saturday afternoon. Rightly or wrongly, this is how I understood the directive coming from our diocesan liturgy office.

In any event, it’s a thought-provoking discussion.
 
buc_fan33 said:
I have to admit…I still have a problem with the way the canon is being interpreted. Namely, I don’t see any interpretation taking into account the fact that the evening of December 8 this year is NOT the feast of the Immaculate Conception.

I did a quick Google search and found a number of diocesan liturgy offices around the country that seem to support this position. I must admit, that I did not find any suggesting an anticipatory Mass for the Second Sunday of Advent could meet the obligation. Tonight at Mass, I told my parishioners that they must go to Mass between Friday evening and Saturday afternoon. Rightly or wrongly, this is how I understood the directive coming from our diocesan liturgy office.

In any event, it’s a thought-provoking discussion.
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I think you will not find such a comment because the “evening of December 8 every year is the feast of the Immaculate Conception” (even when the celebration is transferred to Monday - but then without obligation) because it is on that feast day December 8, midnight to midnight. It is the *Mass of Second Sunday of Advent *that anticipates the Sunday, on Saturday, the feast of the Immaculate Conception.
 
Digitonomy said:
Are you saying that in years such as 1985, the IC obligation transferred to Monday December 9?
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I believe so, though I cannot say with certainty. When the U.S. bishops met and discussed policy regarding holy days in 1991, there was a feeling that obligations should be lightened when holy days feell on Mondays and Saturdays–this is when the business of removing the obligation on those days arose. There was a lot of back and forth between the bishops, and I believe what we have now, including the non-transfer of the obligation from Sunday to Monday, is all part of the compromise reached at that time.
 
Chatter163 said:
I believe so, though I cannot say with certainty. When the U.S. bishops met and discussed policy regarding holy days in 1991, there was a feeling that obligations should be lightened when holy days feell on Mondays and Saturdays–this is when the business of removing the obligation on those days arose. There was a lot of back and forth between the bishops, and I believe what we have now, including the non-transfer of the obligation from Sunday to Monday, is all part of the compromise reached at that time.
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I have absolutely no memory of attending Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation where the solemnity was transferred due to conflict with another solemnity. And I tend to remember things like that. I do remember noting that the solemnity was transferred because the Sunday and Holy Days only missalette would usually show the Mass for the transferred solemnity. (It would include solemnities that were not days of obligation in the United States.)

This leads me to think that either I did not know that the obligation had been transferred or that the obligation was, in fact, *not *transferred.

It was my observation growing up as a Catholic school child that families like mine who had children in Catholic school were much more likely to attend Mass on Holy Days of Obligation than were families who did not sent their children to Catholic school. I believe the primary reason for this was because back then Catholic schools were often the primary means through which communication was disseminated to the adults. Bulletins and announcements at Mass were just not as effective as having a child say, “Hey Mom and Dad, there is no school on December 8 cuz it’s a Holy Day!” as he hands the parents the flier confirming the child’s words.

I think that the major reason for not transferring obligations is because almost nobody would come other than those who would have attended weekday Mass anyway.
 
buc_fan33 said:
I did a quick Google search and found a number of diocesan liturgy offices around the country that seem to support this position…this is how I understood the directive coming from our diocesan liturgy office.
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Notice that the statements are coming from liturgists. Whose job is first and foremost to make sure that the proper masses are celebrated at the right time in the right way. Lest there be any confusion among priests, lectors, music directors, etc, the liturgy offices want to get out the word that Saturday night will be a Sunday in Advent mass, not an Immaculate Conception mass. It may not occur to them that the Church approaches canonical obligations of the faithful differently from the obligations of parishes.

Canonists, on the other hand, don’t have any vested interest in picking a fight when such statements are made. And even though many bishops and a number of priests are canon lawyers, they may not be that familiar with the exact wording of the canons we are arguing about, instead spending much more of their time on the issues addressed by marriage tribunals. That’s the only explanation I have for my diocese’s judicial vicar saying that a Saturday evening wedding mass wouldn’t meet the Sunday obligation because of the readings used (!).
 
Hi! I have a question.

The Immaculate Conception Mass is this Saturday. I go to 4:30 Mass every Saturday anyway. Would 4:30 Mass take care of both my Sunday obligation AND my Holy Day obligation?

Thanks!
 
There are some holy days when if they fall on weekends, then the obligation is withdrawn.
This holy day is not one of them.

So two mass are required, one for the holy day and one for Sunday.
 
My priest told us at Mass that you have to go to 2 separate Masses. Either Friday night or Saturday morning. Then you have to go again for weekend Mass. The vigil of the Immaculate Conception starts Friday evening and ends Saturday at 4 (or depending on the diocese).

But overall, you have to do 2 Masses. No double dipping. 😃
 
Vico said:
I think you will not find such a comment because the “evening of December 8 every year is the feast of the Immaculate Conception” (even when the celebration is transferred to Monday - but then without obligation) because it is on that feast day December 8, midnight to midnight. It is the *Mass of Second Sunday of Advent *that anticipates the Sunday, on Saturday, the feast of the Immaculate Conception.
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With all due respect, I really believe you are mistaken on this. So far, I have asked two other priests and they both said the same thing. The Immaculate Conception this year ends the evening of Saturday, December 8, not at midnight on December 9. Counting Fr. David and myself, that is four priests who come down on this side of the debate, and I’m certain I could find more. Now, I’m not suggesting that we somehow know more than your average lay person. I’ve studied both canon law and liturgy, but I would not consider myself an expert in either field. There are many lay people who know far more than me in these respective fields. But, I like to think that the eight years I spent in seminary count for something.

Frankly, I hope that you are correct, because the reality is that many, if not most, Catholics will neglect this very serious obligation. But again, it seems to me and the other priests with whom I’ve spoken, that the canon in question is addressing things like weddings on a Sunday. For what it’s worth, if any of my brother priests have time to celebrate a nuptial Mass on a Sunday, they can come help in my parish:). The canon also seems to address those who may go to Mass in another rite, or in the Extraordinary Form, either or which may be celebrating a different feast with different readings.

But the question here is NOT must one go to the Mass of the day to satisfy the obligation, (which, clearly, the answer is no. I don’t think anyone is disputing that.) but must one go to Mass on the actual day of the feast? Again, it seems clear that you must. The further question then is, when does the feast end? Everything I have read and everything I have studied in liturgical law suggest that the feast ends on the evening of December 8.

Again, I could be wrong. I’d like to see something authoritative from the CDW. I looked a little bit yesterday and couldn’t find anything in either direction.
 
Angela77 said:
Hi! I have a question.

The Immaculate Conception Mass is this Saturday. I go to 4:30 Mass every Saturday anyway. Would 4:30 Mass take care of both my Sunday obligation AND my Holy Day obligation?

Thanks!
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No.
 
I have a question regarding the obligation to assist at Mass on holy days of obligation. My question was sparked when I was looking at my local parish’s schedule for next weekend, in which Dec. 8 is, of course, a holy day of obligation, being the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception.

Even though my question is based on a real parish’s Mass schedule, I still call it “hypothetical” since the question doesn’t affect my plans; I’m going to Mass the morning of Dec. 8 and the morning of Dec. 9.

That said, here is the schedule my question concerns:

Fri, Dec. 7 - Mass at 7 pm in anticipation of the Immaculate Conception
Sat, Dec. 8 - Mass at 10 am for the Immaculate Conception
Regular Weekend Schedule
Sat, Dec. 8 - Mass at 5 pm in anticipation of Sunday
Sun, Dec. 9 - Several morning Masses

Okay, so canon law says that one fulfills the obligation by assisting at Mass either on the holy day itself, or the evening before. It doesn’t have to be a Mass for that particular day. Hence, a wedding Mass or a funeral Mass fulfills the obligation. As would a Mass that occurs on the same day but celebrates a different feast (i.e. uses a different calendar as in a non-Latin sui iuris church).

Does that mean, then, that - given the above schedule - a Catholic would fulfill both obligations if (s)he went to the 5 pm Sat. Mass (thus satisfying the Dec. 8 requirement, even though it’s actually a Mass with Sunday’s readings and all that) and a Sunday morning Mass?

Even though that’s obviously not what the parish has in mind? (given that the Sat. 5 pm one is their standard weekly Saturday evening Mass)

Thanks in advance!
 
This question has been asked and answered several times. But, canon lawyer Dr. Ed Peters (who also advises the Apostolic Signatura in Rome) just posted this today on his fine blog. Best answer yet, I think.

HIs bottom line: No, you can’t get twofers. You must attend two Masses. And, you can attend one Mass any time on Saturday (including the Mass in anticipation of the 2nd Sunday of Advent) to fulfill the obligation for the Immaculate Conception.
 
A Mass will fulfill one obligation, but not both.

For example, if one went the 5:00 pm Mass on Saturday, that would fulfill the obligation for the Feast, but the Sunday obligation would need to be fulfilled the following day.

But if someone went to the 10:00am Mass, the obligation for the Feast would be fulfilled, and then went to the 5:00pm Mass, that would fulfil the Sunday obligation.

But there are no 'two-fers", a Mass covers only one obligation.

The readings are immaterial and do not affect the obligation one way or the other
 
Angela77 said:
Hi! I have a question.

The Immaculate Conception Mass is this Saturday. I go to 4:30 Mass every Saturday anyway. Would 4:30 Mass take care of both my Sunday obligation AND my Holy Day obligation?

Thanks!
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No.

Quoting my Church bulletin here; “The 4:30pm Mass on 12/8 (Saturday) is the anticipated Mass for the 2nd Sunday of Advent and does not fulfill your obligation to attend Mass for the Holy Day of Obligation.”

So, only the Friday evening or earlier Mass on Saturday fulfill the obligation.
 
Canon lawyer Dr. Ed Peters, who advises the Apostolic Signatura in Rome, just posted this on his fine blog.

Bottom line: no twofers. You must attend two Masses. And, you may attend any Mass at any time on Saturday to fulfill the obligation for the Immaculate Conception.

Dr Peters is an expert in canon law–one to whom Cardinal Burke turns for advice.
 
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