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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Your link answers my question.
Thank you. Please note that my question nowhere concerned “twofers.” I’m well aware that that particular question has already been asked and answered.
MERGED: Immaculate Conception Holy Day in the USA and Obligation
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MarkThompson
Guest
Well, I disagree with the answers above, and I have never been able to find the slightest textual basis in the relevant canons for imposing such a requirement. Rather, by attending a Mass on the Saturday evening, one has satisfied the Immaculate Conception obligation by attending Mass “on the feast day itself,” and the Sunday obligation by attending Mass “in the evening of the preceding day.” At any rate, this question has been thoroughly discussed in this thread and this one, which I encourage you to read.
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Chatter163
Guest
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I spoke only of Immaculate Concpetion falling on a Sunday, not two solemnities colliding, other than one of them being Sunday. Please clarify.
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thistle
Guest
Our priest announced that attending Mass Saturday evening on December 8 does indeed fulfill both our Sunday obligation and our Immaculate Conception Holy Day of Obligation.
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Spoken4
Guest
So, if I read this correctly, I can attend a morning Mass on Saturday for the Immaculate Conception and receive Communion at that Mass-- then attend a 5 pm Mass that same evening and receive Communion then too. Am I interpreting this correctly?
Normally, if I find myself at 2 Masses in the same 24 hour period, I only receive Communion once. I was taught that one does not receive twice in a day except under special circumstances. I was also taught that the two Saturday Masses, such as we have here (a holyday and an anticipatory Mass), satisfy obligations for 2 separate “days”, so it’s okay to receive in both Masses, as indicated in the link.
On those lines-- I’m a Cantor and sometimes fulfill that role at say, 8 am Mass. Then I sing with the Choir at 10 am. Normally on those (occasional) weeks, I simply receive at the early Mass and remain in prayer during the next Mass. If I wanted to receive again, for some reason, would it be acceptable to do so? I seem to recall reading somewhere that said if one has an active role in the Mass, such as a Cantor or Proclaimer of the Word or altar server or something like that, one could receive at each Mass where that active role is fulfilled. Not being certain, I just stuck with the “one per customer” rule and never thought to ask our director. Now I’m curious!
~Spoken4
Normally, if I find myself at 2 Masses in the same 24 hour period, I only receive Communion once. I was taught that one does not receive twice in a day except under special circumstances. I was also taught that the two Saturday Masses, such as we have here (a holyday and an anticipatory Mass), satisfy obligations for 2 separate “days”, so it’s okay to receive in both Masses, as indicated in the link.
On those lines-- I’m a Cantor and sometimes fulfill that role at say, 8 am Mass. Then I sing with the Choir at 10 am. Normally on those (occasional) weeks, I simply receive at the early Mass and remain in prayer during the next Mass. If I wanted to receive again, for some reason, would it be acceptable to do so? I seem to recall reading somewhere that said if one has an active role in the Mass, such as a Cantor or Proclaimer of the Word or altar server or something like that, one could receive at each Mass where that active role is fulfilled. Not being certain, I just stuck with the “one per customer” rule and never thought to ask our director. Now I’m curious!
~Spoken4
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MarkThompson
Guest
The rules in force (Canon 917) permit you always to receive Communion at two Masses in one day. I see nothing, however, that would extend this to three or more even though you were doing something “active.”So, if I read this correctly, I can attend a morning Mass on Saturday for the Immaculate Conception and receive Communion at that Mass-- then attend a 5 pm Mass that same evening and receive Communion then too. Am I interpreting this correctly?
Normally, if I find myself at 2 Masses in the same 24 hour period, I only receive Communion once. I was taught that one does not receive twice in a day except under special circumstances. I was also taught that the two Saturday Masses, such as we have here (a holyday and an anticipatory Mass), satisfy obligations for 2 separate “days”, so it’s okay to receive in both Masses, as indicated in the link.
On those lines-- I’m a Cantor and sometimes fulfill that role at say, 8 am Mass. Then I sing with the Choir at 10 am. Normally on those (occasional) weeks, I simply receive at the early Mass and remain in prayer during the next Mass. If I wanted to receive again, for some reason, would it be acceptable to do so? I seem to recall reading somewhere that said if one has an active role in the Mass, such as a Cantor or Proclaimer of the Word or altar server or something like that, one could receive at each Mass where that active role is fulfilled. Not being certain, I just stuck with the “one per customer” rule and never thought to ask our director. Now I’m curious!
~Spoken4
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Vico
Guest
This is definitive. The General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar from the Sacred Congregation of Divine Worship explains*:With all due respect, I really believe you are mistaken on this. So far, I have asked two other priests and they both said the same thing. The Immaculate Conception this year ends the evening of Saturday, December 8, not at midnight on December 9. Counting Fr. David and myself, that is four priests who come down on this side of the debate, and I’m certain I could find more. Now, I’m not suggesting that we somehow know more than your average lay person. I’ve studied both canon law and liturgy, but I would not consider myself an expert in either field. There are many lay people who know far more than me in these respective fields. But, I like to think that the eight years I spent in seminary count for something.
Frankly, I hope that you are correct, because the reality is that many, if not most, Catholics will neglect this very serious obligation. But again, it seems to me and the other priests with whom I’ve spoken, that the canon in question is addressing things like weddings on a Sunday. For what it’s worth, if any of my brother priests have time to celebrate a nuptial Mass on a Sunday, they can come help in my parish
But the question here is NOT must one go to the Mass of the day to satisfy the obligation, (which, clearly, the answer is no. I don’t think anyone is disputing that.) but must one go to Mass on the actual day of the feast? Again, it seems clear that you must. The further question then is, when does the feast end? Everything I have read and everything I have studied in liturgical law suggest that the feast ends on the evening of December 8.
Again, I could be wrong. I’d like to see something authoritative from the CDW. I looked a little bit yesterday and couldn’t find anything in either direction.
**"*The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day."
So note that the liturgical day does not begin from the evening of the preceding day, but is midnight to midnight, and this is the same as it is defined in the canon law (Can. 202 and CCEO ). An observance may be transferred or abrogated or even regularly anticipated on another liturgical day, such as happens with the solemnities where “observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day”. That does not redefine the liturgical day however. The fulfillment of the Mass obligation (Can. 1248) specifically states “on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day”. Therefore it includes the entire liturgical day, midnight to midnight.
Modern Catholic Dictionary has some history:**VIGIL. **The day or eve before a more or less prominent feast or solemnity. It was observed as a preparation for the following day with special offices and prayers and formerly with a fast, honoring the particular mystery of religion or the saint to be venerated on the feast day. The Church today observes solemn vigils for Christmas, Easter, and Pentecost. Although the number of such solemn vigils has been reduced since the Second Vatican Council, the Church still wants the notion of vigils to be kept alive in the minds of the faithful. Thus “it is fitting that Bible services on the vigils of great feasts, on certain ferial days of Lent and Advent, on Sundays and feastdays, should also have the same structure as the liturgy of the Word at Mass” (Inter Oecumenici, 1964, 38). (Etym. Latin vigilia, from vigil, alert)
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
That was never in dispute, YoungTradCath. Nor was anyone trying to do a two-for-one kind of deal.
The question in dispute was whether one may satisfy either obligation - Immaculate Conception, or Sunday - by assisting at a Mass on the evening of Sat, December 8, or if assisting at such a Mass could satisfy only one’s Sunday obligation.
Gwen cited canon lawyer Dr. Ed Peters, who confidently asserts that assisting at Mass on Saturday evening could fulfill either obligation (though not, of course, both).
Vico is correct, according to this Dr. Peters.
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buc_fan33
Guest
Well, I’m slowly becoming convinced. I’m all for giving as much leeway as possible for people. If it helps someone avoid serious sin, so much the better. Like I said, I’m not an expert, and I would never pretend to be an expert in Canon Law. I appreciate everyone’s responses to this. I sent an e-mail off to my own Canon Law professor from seminary to try and see what their take on it would be. Again, thank you. Even priests don’t know it all, and if I am wrong, I thank you for the opportunity to grow in humility. Heaven knows I certainly need it.
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dixieagle
Guest
He is incorrect, as one does not get a “two for one.”
There are two separate obligations here - one for the Holy Day of obligation, and one for Sunday. Things are a little confusing, as the Holy Day is Saturday anyway (with the possibility of a Friday evening Mass fulfilling that obligation.) One could argue that, as long as one went again on Sunday, you could attend a Saturday evening Mass for the Holy Day and be in line with Canon Law.
Bottom line… one Mass does NOT fulfill the TWO obligations we have next weekend. Here is a quote from one of many church bulletins which explain the obligation succinctly:
“Please be reminded that all of us must attend Mass twice this weekend, once for the Immaculate Conception and then for our regular Sunday obligation. If one chooses to attend the 4pm Mass on Saturday to fulfill the obligation for the Immaculate Conception, then they must also attend one of the Sunday Masses the following day.” stlandrycatholicchurch.blogspot.com
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Chatter163
Guest
There have been three different threads on this in the liturgy forum, merged into one.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=722453
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=722453
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
As Mark Thompson said, the relevant canons actually permit us to receive the Holy Eucharist a second time on a given day, as long as we do so in the context of full participation in an actual Mass.So, if I read this correctly, I can attend a morning Mass on Saturday for the Immaculate Conception and receive Communion at that Mass-- then attend a 5 pm Mass that same evening and receive Communion then too. Am I interpreting this correctly?
Normally, if I find myself at 2 Masses in the same 24 hour period, I only receive Communion once. I was taught that one does not receive twice in a day except under special circumstances. I was also taught that the two Saturday Masses, such as we have here (a holyday and an anticipatory Mass), satisfy obligations for 2 separate “days”, so it’s okay to receive in both Masses, as indicated in the link.
On those lines-- I’m a Cantor and sometimes fulfill that role at say, 8 am Mass. Then I sing with the Choir at 10 am. Normally on those (occasional) weeks, I simply receive at the early Mass and remain in prayer during the next Mass. If I wanted to receive again, for some reason, would it be acceptable to do so? I seem to recall reading somewhere that said if one has an active role in the Mass, such as a Cantor or Proclaimer of the Word or altar server or something like that, one could receive at each Mass where that active role is fulfilled. Not being certain, I just stuck with the “one per customer” rule and never thought to ask our director. Now I’m curious!
~Spoken4
No third time allowed, however. Unless you’re about to die and are receiving Viaticum.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
This is a complicated matter, and both you (and FrDavid) and Vico made convincing arguments.
I am certainly not qualified to assess the matter myself, which is why I’m inclined to just trust the professional canon lawyer Gwen cited. If anyone would know what he is talking about, it’d be someone like him.
I guess - assuming Dr. Peters is right - it boils down to the fact that canon law and liturgical law just don’t overlap. Apparently the way canon law defines a day, for obligation purposes, doesn’t necessarily depend upon or stem from what counts as the liturgical day (I say this because you guys established very clearly that Saturday evening is the Second Sunday of Advent, liturgically speaking).
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Vico
Guest
But, did you see? The General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar from the Sacred Congregation of Divine Worship explains*: **"*The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight…". What occurs on Saturday evening is not the Second Sunday of Advent, liturgically speaking for it is still the liturgical day of Saturday, rather as the the CDW states “the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day”. The observance (a particular liturgy used) is not always that of the liturgical day. The canon law does not require a particular observance, it is not mentioned, only the time period is specified to meet the obligation of the liturgical day, on that day or previous evening. Even the word “previous” is telling.
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JReducation
Guest
This Saturday, is the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. However, the solemnity ends at Vespers. Therefore, any mass that is celebrated after Vespers is for the Second Sunday of Advent, which is a different solemnity.
One must attend both masses, the Mass for the Immaculate Conception and the Mass for the Second Sunday of Advent.
They are not the same mass; therefore, one mass cannot fulfill both obligations. There are two completely different masses for two completely different solemnities.
Even in the breviary, there is a split this Saturday. Normally, a Solemnity runs from Vespers I to Vespers II. Since the Immaculate Conception falls on Saturday, some places will celebrate Vespers II for the Immaculate Conception, but not Vespers I for the Second Sunday of Advent. Other places will celebrate Vespers I for the Second Sunday of Advent, but not Vespers II for the Immaculate Conception. But you cannot celebrate one liturgical act to cover two solemnities.
If we look closely, even the vestments change. Saturday morning you will see white. Saturday afternoon you will see purple again. Saturday morning you will have a Gloria at mass. Saturday afternoon the Gloria is omitted. The intent of the mass is also different. The only thing that does not change from one to the other is the actual consecration. But the accidental form does change. It changes enough that the Church considers them different liturgies.
Very often, if a solemnity falls on a Saturday or Monday, the obligation is lifted. There are certain solemnities for which this cannot be done. Two that come to mind are the Immaculate Conception and Christmas. You must attend two masses.
The Immaculate Conception and the Second Sunday of Advent are completely different solemnities with their own masses. We will have to attend two masses this weekend.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
One must attend both masses, the Mass for the Immaculate Conception and the Mass for the Second Sunday of Advent.
They are not the same mass; therefore, one mass cannot fulfill both obligations. There are two completely different masses for two completely different solemnities.
Even in the breviary, there is a split this Saturday. Normally, a Solemnity runs from Vespers I to Vespers II. Since the Immaculate Conception falls on Saturday, some places will celebrate Vespers II for the Immaculate Conception, but not Vespers I for the Second Sunday of Advent. Other places will celebrate Vespers I for the Second Sunday of Advent, but not Vespers II for the Immaculate Conception. But you cannot celebrate one liturgical act to cover two solemnities.
If we look closely, even the vestments change. Saturday morning you will see white. Saturday afternoon you will see purple again. Saturday morning you will have a Gloria at mass. Saturday afternoon the Gloria is omitted. The intent of the mass is also different. The only thing that does not change from one to the other is the actual consecration. But the accidental form does change. It changes enough that the Church considers them different liturgies.
Very often, if a solemnity falls on a Saturday or Monday, the obligation is lifted. There are certain solemnities for which this cannot be done. Two that come to mind are the Immaculate Conception and Christmas. You must attend two masses.
The Immaculate Conception and the Second Sunday of Advent are completely different solemnities with their own masses. We will have to attend two masses this weekend.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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GwenL
Guest
I apologize. I misread this question of yours:
Okay, so canon law says that one fulfills the obligation by assisting at Mass either on the holy day itself, or the evening before. It doesn’t have to be a Mass for that particular day. Hence, a wedding Mass or a funeral Mass fulfills the obligation. As would a Mass that occurs on the same day but celebrates a different feast (i.e. uses a different calendar as in a non-Latin sui iuris church).
Does that mean, then, that - given the above schedule - a Catholic would fulfill both obligations if (s)he went to the 5 pm Sat. Mass (thus satisfying the Dec. 8 requirement, even though it’s actually a Mass with Sunday’s readings and all that) and a Sunday morning Mass?
What was your question in that second paragraph, if not “can a Catholic get a twofer?”
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VivienneJ
Guest
Far be it from me ever to correct JReducation, I respect and value your insights far too much; however, the obligation is in the USA (and probably other countries too), but it is somewhat different in the two countries that directly affect me: South Africa and Arabia. I mention this simply so that CAF members in other countries will ascertain the position in their own country.
I actually searched because I distinctly remember that nothing was said at yesterday’s Mass about how the Day of Obligation fitted into this upcoming weekend’s services. Father is always very diligent about reminding us of obligations as well as which Masses count for which obligations.
I actually searched because I distinctly remember that nothing was said at yesterday’s Mass about how the Day of Obligation fitted into this upcoming weekend’s services. Father is always very diligent about reminding us of obligations as well as which Masses count for which obligations.
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JReducation
Guest
There are other countries, besides S. Africa and Arabia in which the Immaculate Conception is not a holy day of obligation, as well as other Churches. Not all of the Eastern Churches observe it as a solemnity. One or two don’t have it one their calendar at all, because of the theological wording on the Immaculate Conception. That’s another thread.
In the USA and in several other countries, this solemnity is locked in as a holy day of obligation. I know that in the USA it’s because the Immaculate Conception is the national patroness, also in Uruguay. If you attend a Franciscan parish, you will also see it celebrated with great pomp and circumstance, because she’s the patroness of the Franciscan Order. I don’t know what other countries observe it as a solemnity and a holy day of obligation. I can only speak about the two that I know, USA and Uruguay. In these countries the obligation cannot be dispensed, except for grave reason.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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Phemie
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It was “if I attend two Sunday Masses, one on Sat. evening and one on Sunday morning, have I fulfilled my obligation for both days?”
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Spoken4
Guest
From Fone Bone:
Ah, I missed that! How? I dunno… just blind, I guess!
“One refill per customer”
I do remember when I was quite young and living in Upstate New York, having only recently made my First Communion, our family had taken a weekend getaway to Canada. We attended “Mass” (I use the term loosely-- this was back in the early 70’s) and the Holy Communion was LEAVENED bread! Yes, this was a Catholic Church. I remember how different the host was, and I rather enjoyed the feel of it in my mouth compared to the starchy, dry texture of a proper host. It seemed so interesting to me that I asked my mom if I could receive again… "get some more of that ‘Jesus bread’ ", so to speak and I say that now because it certainly was NOT a proper host (though I didn’t say ‘Jesus bread’ back then-- it was Holy Communion, not “food”) !
Come to think of it, the “wine” tasted more like Welch’s grape drink than actual wine. Hmmm, was that some sort of hippy-dippy “modern rite”? If so, I pray that they’ve returned to some sort of proper form! I saw a lot of strange stuff in the Church in those days, looking back on it all…
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