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MERGED: Immaculate Conception Holy Day in the USA and Obligation
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
I think there are a couple of issues going on.
One is that this discussion has attracted a lot of geeks (and I mean that in the best possible way) who are enjoying teasing all of this apart. When does the Immaculate Conception end and Sunday begin? Can a parish celebrate Mass for the Immaculate Conception on Saturday evening rather than celebrating the Sunday Mass? And it’s interesting to hear all the takes on canon law, liturgical law, and people’s opinions of how to apply them.
And then there’s a much bigger issue that hasn’t been part of this discussion. For most Catholics (in my opinion) this is of no interest whatsoever because they’re not going to Mass on Friday evening or Saturday anyway.
The holy day Masses that I attend – at my own parish or others – are not well attended. On All Saints Day, for example, I would say the attendance was a little better than a typical weekday, but not anywhere close to what you see on a Sunday.
What role do holy days play in the lives of everyday Catholics? How many care whether there’s an obligation or not? When only a quarter or so of Catholics attend Mass on Sundays, how many can be expected to attend on other days?
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Digitonomy
Guest
One might wake up one Sunday and say, “Hmm… I have a devotion to priestly ordinations today. I think I’ll attend an ordination mass rather than the normal ordinary time mass.” Would that be wrong?
You’re still trying to browbeat people into following your approach. I think it’s praiseworthy to do as you suggest. However, the Church does not impose restrictions on what mass one can attend, so I’m hard-pressed to think we can judge a person wrong in say choosing to attend Saturday evening and then Sunday morning, simply so he can spend more time with his mother on Saturday. Or, pushing it farther, so he can watch the Army-Navy game. I don’t think there’s a big difference between this and choosing to attend 8 AM mass rather than 10 AM, so that one can shop for fresher groceries when the store opens at 9.
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maddogdm
Guest
No, my point is that it is just one among various interpretations. I understand the argument that two holy days of obligations requires attendance at two masses. This is the learned opinion of Dr Peters and, as he quotes, of (Fr.) Raymond Browne, Letter & Spirit (1995) 702. However, there is contrary opinion among professional canon lawyers who base their opinion on the text itself and parallels with can.388 §3. and Can. 534 §2
It’s not that simple, as illustrated by can.388 §3. and can. 534 §2
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Even though canon lawyers who defend the conscience of someone who attends the evening mass to satisfy the obligation for both holydays are in a minority, I regard as a valid alternative the argument from parallels to can.388 §3. and can. 534 §2. My own reductio ad absurdum argument of the fact that one mass satisfies the Sunday obligation and the obligation for the Solemnity of Christmas when Christmas falls on a Sunday is meant to point out the fallacy that separate obligations arise from the fact that we are celebrating two different things, the birth of Christ and his Resurrection. Canon law obligation just doesn’t work that way. The fact that the Christmas liturgy supercedes the “regular Sunday” liturgy is also irrelevant to cc. 1246-1248.
Dr Peters makes a similar point about minority views here:
canonlaw.info/2008/11/time-period-for-fulfilling-sunday.html … “I hold the British-Irish position on this point, but, even if ours turned out to be minority view, it is, I suggest, more than sufficient (per 1983 CIC 14, among others) to defend the conscience of one who attends any Mass in a Catholic rite, beginning any time after 12 noon on Saturday but before midnight between Sunday and Monday, in fulfillment of one’s Sunday obligation.”
The canon lawyer I consulted just applied a parallel with can.388 §3. and can. 534 §2
to extend Peters’ idea of “any mass” to include one that is intended as fulfilling the obligation of the Saturday as well as the Sunday it precedes.
I agree we shouldn’t be wasting time on this, but it is not an issue in the diocese I live in and I object to people burdening the conscience of the faithful with more obligations than canon law imposes.
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Brendan
Guest
Yes, Mass is an obligation at times, but it is ALSO a joy and a privilege.
Why do you think the terms are mutually exclusive?
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Pug
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My experience is that holy days can be hard to get to, especially when they give you some mass sort of late in the morning (during work) and then very early in the evening (you are still driving home from work). Way more people can make a Sunday morning mass than the unhelpful schedules typically offered for a Holy Day.
I would LOVE it if local parishes would confer before making their holy day schedules and confession schedules. Confer to make sure they do NOT overlap, so the local people have more options.
All I need is some parish somewhere with a mass during the day on Saturday, and my whole reason for this thread would have vanished. But everyone has this useless (to me) Saturday morning mass for the Immaculate Conception. That’s why I was asking about the Saturday evening mass in the first place.
Another factor with the lower attendance at holy days is the remembering them factor. The person has no helpful habit of going to mass on Thursday or whichever day the holy day happens to be on. So they wake up and go about their Thursday routine. Sometime on Friday they remember that yesterday was the holy day. When I was first Catholic, this happened to me about a third of the time. It was not deliberate.
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maddogdm
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By the way, a friend has pointed out that my reductio ad absurdum argument is not irrelevant. Next year attending mass for the Second Sunday of Advent will also satisfy the obligation for the Immaculate Conception (Dec 8), One mass satisfies both!! Or are some of you going to argue that if you go to the Saturday vigil, you have to go on Sunday (or Monday) as well - two masses or else, its that simple so they say!!
What if you go to a wedding that Saturday at 12 midday. According to Dr Peters, in 2013 this should satisfy both the Sunday obligation and the Dec 8 obligation. To be honest, I agree with Peters when it comes to not imposing more obligation than canon law requires. Of course, if I was invited to such a wedding, I would go to mass three times, once to celebrate the joy of Christian marriage, once to celebrate the joy of the Resurrection for Sunday and then on Monday to celebrate the joy of the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception - however I would not be obliged to do so! - one catholic rite Nuptial at 12 midday on Dec 7 would satisfy my obligation(s).
What if you go to a wedding that Saturday at 12 midday. According to Dr Peters, in 2013 this should satisfy both the Sunday obligation and the Dec 8 obligation. To be honest, I agree with Peters when it comes to not imposing more obligation than canon law requires. Of course, if I was invited to such a wedding, I would go to mass three times, once to celebrate the joy of Christian marriage, once to celebrate the joy of the Resurrection for Sunday and then on Monday to celebrate the joy of the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception - however I would not be obliged to do so! - one catholic rite Nuptial at 12 midday on Dec 7 would satisfy my obligation(s).
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Phemie
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Since it is the patronal feast of the United States, the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of Mary is always a day of obligation WHEN IT IS CELEBRATED ON DECEMBER 8. When December 8 is a Sunday of Advent, the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is moved to Monday, December 9, but without the obligation. *Office of Worship Archdiocese of Indianapolis *
Hmm, no, Dr. Peters would never say that a Mass at 12 midday on Saturday fulfills your Sunday obligation. He’s adamant that it has to be at 4 PM or later.
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buc_fan33
Guest
Deleted. Sorry. I don’t think I made that last post in charity. And, I think I was wrong in how I read the rubric for those that read the post. Ignore.
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Digitonomy
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Father, I appreciate your perspective and perceived no lack of charity in the post. Until now, when you denied me the opportunity to take issue with the rubrical error!
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buc_fan33
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Ahh…such is life. And thank you. i try to always be charitable. though, like anyone else I suppose, i dont alway succeed. But, you are correct. The rubric specifically omits Sundays in Ordinary Time, so it seems the celebrant would be given the choice when celebrating a Ritual Mass for the Conferral of Holy Orders on a Sunday in Ordinary Time to choose the readings of the day, or readings proper to the ritual Mass itself.Father, I appreciate your perspective and perceived no lack of charity in the post. Until now, when you denied me the opportunity to take issue with the rubrical error!
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GodHeals
Guest
Hi,
Feast of Immaculate Conception (Dec. 8th)
Question 1
I have sleep health issues and most likely won’t be able to make it to Mass Saturday morning or afternoon. Would Saturday night Mass fill the requirement for the Holy Day of obligation?
Question 2
Or regardless of my health, would Dec. 7th meet the *requirement *(not sure a good term?!?) for Dec. 8th Holy Day of obligation? I think Saturday night is the regular weekend Mass though.
Question 3
I guess it is better to go on Friday or Saturday night to try to meet the requirement than not to go at all?
Question 4
Is it a mortal sin for not attending a Holy Day of Obligation?
Thanks,
Brian
Feast of Immaculate Conception (Dec. 8th)
Question 1
I have sleep health issues and most likely won’t be able to make it to Mass Saturday morning or afternoon. Would Saturday night Mass fill the requirement for the Holy Day of obligation?
Question 2
Or regardless of my health, would Dec. 7th meet the *requirement *(not sure a good term?!?) for Dec. 8th Holy Day of obligation? I think Saturday night is the regular weekend Mass though.
Question 3
I guess it is better to go on Friday or Saturday night to try to meet the requirement than not to go at all?
Question 4
Is it a mortal sin for not attending a Holy Day of Obligation?
Thanks,
Brian
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maddogdm
Guest
!2 midday is exactly what he says here last paragraph canonlaw.info/2008/11/time-period-for-fulfilling-sunday.html
You are referring to the majority of American canonists who are adamant it isfrom 4pm. So much for simplicity.
The observance is moved, but the obligation to go to mass on Dec 8 remains,
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jmjconder
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Phemie
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Well, of course the obligation remains, it’s Sunday. The obligation is to attend on Sunday, not the Immaculate Conception which moved.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Let me patiently emphasize once again, YoungTradCath, that only one person on this thread so far has disagreed with this, and the main dispute that took place did not question but rather fully accepted that two obligations require two satisfactions (i.e. attendance at two separate Masses).
No one’s going to make that argument, because the USCCB has expressly ruled that the obligation upon the faithful of assisting at Mass on the Immaculate Conception does not transfer in 2013. Check out the end of this calendar and see for yourself.
The situation this coming weekend (for Latin Catholics in the U.S.) is, on the other hand, entirely different. You’re one of the few to make this convoluted argument to the contrary.
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ilySHJ
Guest
Here’s are two links to articles on your obligation. This canon lawyer has been picked by some conservative priest bloggers re other issues, so I guess he won’t lead you astray.
canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/two-mass-obligations-means-two-masses-but/
canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/1964/
As for your obligation in light of your health issues, talk to your priest or confessor.
canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/two-mass-obligations-means-two-masses-but/
canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/1964/
As for your obligation in light of your health issues, talk to your priest or confessor.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
There has been a recent thread where this very question was in tight dispute.
The consensus, however, has been yes, attendance at a Saturday night Mass could fulfill the holy day requirement - but not the holy day and Sunday requirements at the same time.
In other words, you must attend Mass twice (once for the Immaculate Conception, and once for Sunday), but a Mass on Saturday evening could fulfill either obligation.
The opinion of professional canon lawyer Dr. Peters - found here and here - was really the nail in the coffin of the opposing argument.
Yes, assisting at Mass on the evening of Friday, December 7 definitely fulfills your obligation to go to Mass on the Immaculate Conception.
Indeed. We have two obligations to fulfill this weekend, but lots of options: in your case, with your sleep health issues, going on Friday night (for the Immaculate Conception) and Saturday night (for Sunday) might be best.
If you choose to go Saturday night and count that toward your Immaculate Conception obligation, make sure you still go sometime on Sunday.
Yes, by default.
However, the rules are there to serve us, not hurt us - “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath,” as the Lord teaches. So if your sleep health issues really are a problem, you should go talk to your priest and work out what you should do with him.
Random people on an Internet forum aren’t equipped with a personal knowledge of you and the details of your situation. We can only tell you the default requirement, which yes, imposes a grave obligation, binding under pain of serious sin, on Catholics to assist at Mass on all Sundays and holy days of obligation.
But exceptions can and are made, if necessary. We don’t know your medical situation, so I heartily urge you to speak with your priest ASAP and work out what you should do. If need be you can be dispensed this time.
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Lapey
Guest
I sent you a private message.
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maryj
Guest
Saturday evening vigil does not fulfill holy day obligation, saturday vigil will be the liturgy for Sunday not for the Holy day.
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