MERGED: Is this allowed?/Gospel Interruption/Lay Gospel readers

[Pakesh]

Hello all,

I started a thread about this a week or so ago. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=547501 Benedictgal and others had great responses. Perhaps we could merge the two? I get the distinct impression this is indeed a liturgical abuse-see the other thread too.

God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[Love_Divine]

Emotionless? That doesn’t sound spiritually edifying to me. I’m not saying priests need to be actors or dramatists, but I certainly don’t think Scripture was meant to be read (or prayed) without emotion.

No, its great. Keep in mind that when we hear it the second time in English, it was already sung in chant in Latin, which is plenty edifying. The whole Mass is edifying.

 

[Samuel63]

I attended Mass on 4/3 at a different parish than my home parish. They interrupted the Gospel yesterday on three different points (whenever the blind man said something about seeing) to sing a silly new ageish hymn about seeing. I didn’t think you could interrupt the Gospel? I was offended and thought it was . . .silly. The Gospel is powerful enough on its own. Was this OK for this parish to do?

I am having the exact same problem at my parish in Lake County IL. It is so annoying!

 

[Hboggs]

No, its great. Keep in mind that when we hear it the second time in English, it was already sung in chant in Latin, which is plenty edifying. The whole Mass is edifying.

I’m curious as to your estimate of (1) the number of people in attendance, (2) average age and (3) number of people under 40.

Thanks,

 

[Don9of11]

Please forgive me…but why are so many people so intent on finding “errors” in the mass?

You are there to be with God and yet it seems like some people are really only going so that they can police the mass and make sure the Priest doesn’t somehow mess it up.

IE…We had a guest speaker and they spoke after the homily instead of after communion!! The priest wore Green Vestments and it is Lent…isn’t he supposed to wear Purple!! They allowed a WOMAN to “preach”!!!

It is not our place to police the mass.

Because the mass should be celebrated the same way in every Catholic Church. It’s not in the preview of the celebrant or pastor to change the order of the mass. An article in this months Adoremus Bulletin expressed this in a very profound way,

*Weak Masses, Weak Faith, Cardinals Say

“A weakening of faith in God, a rise in selfishness and a drop in the number of people going to Mass can be traced to liturgical abuse or Masses that are not reverent”, said two Vatican cardinals, as reported by Cindy Wooden of Catholic News Service (CNS) March 3.

Cardinal Raymond L. Burke, who heads the Apostolic Signatura (Vatican supreme court) and Cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, made this observation on March 2 at the launch in Rome of a book by Father Nicola Bux, a consultant to the Congregations for the Doctrine of the Faith and for the Causes of Saints, and of the Office for Papal Liturgical Celebrations.

The book was published in Italian; an English translation of its title would be, “How to Go to Mass and Not Lose Your Faith”. According to the CNS report, Cardinal Cañizares commented that while the book’s title is provocative, it demonstrates a belief he shares: “Participating in the Eucharist can make us weaken or lose our faith if we do not enter into it properly” and if the liturgy is not celebrated according to the Church’s norms.

Father Bux said that although many Catholics think the Mass is something that the priest and the congregation do together, it is actually something that Jesus does, CNS reported. He added: “If you go to a Mass in one place and then go to Mass in another, you will not find the same Mass. This means that it is not the Mass of the Catholic Church, which people have a right to, but it is just the Mass of this parish or that priest”.

Source: Catholic News Service
*

 

[Spelling]

This morning at Mass someone decided to distribute the Gospel reading between the priestly celebrant and two lay readers while adding piano accompaniment and a little call and response by the cantor throughout the reading.

It sucked. Not only because it’s prohibited but because it was horribly crafted – it would have sounded terrible even if it was allowed. They had also not practiced which made it even worse. It was so bad it really made me wonder why it was actually done. Was it to:

Make the lenten season even more penitential for Mass attendees?

Boost one or more egos by doing something that directly defies the Church?

Create an opportunity for a female to proclaim part of a Gospel during a Mass?

Apply lessons learned at the LA Religious Education Congress?

Create busywork (making up 3 binders) for a paid staffer with nothing else to do?

Can anyone think of any other reason why the Gospel reading was so butchered in my parish this morning? Thanks.

 

[Zsofia_A]

Maybe they wanted to do something special and it went wrong…???

 

[svid2]

Maybe they wanted to do something special and it went wrong…???

How on earth did THE PRIEST ALLOW IT?

 

[Spelling]

Maybe they wanted to do something special and it went wrong…???

Aside from the fact it goes against what the Church directs, if they really wanted to do “something special” would they really have interrupted the Gospel reading 10-12 times so we could sing a little refrain? Really? Wouldn’t they have spent some time planning and rehearsing so it wasn’t so painful to watch? I have now talked to people who attended all 6 Sunday Masses. Each of them had the same problem.

Also even if they said “to heck with the Church, we are going to do what we want to do”, aren’t they aware that Lent is a penitential season where “something special” is really not appropriate?

 

[Spelling]

How on earth did THE PRIEST ALLOW IT?

HECKUVA good question! The retired priest who celebrated the Mass I attended was just going along with prior made plans. We’ll see. I e-mailed my pastor tonight. This display was horrible.

 

[laszlo]

The sin of the pharisees was that the mistook the words of the Law with the will of God. The Law was Saint, given by God, but just a temporary instrument, not the goal. The pharisee believed that if the keep the Law, that will force God to their side. Jesus repeatedly rebuked them: the Law is not ultimate, not absolute.

Neither is the the rubrics.

In the good old times the Passion was read by three people, since usually there were not three priests, it was read by three laymen. They simply resolved the rubrical problems saying that this is not the proclamation of the Gospel, but reading a passage from the Scriptures.

In the Good old times, the worship of God was the center, not the rubrics.

If you are disturbed that the performance was imperfect, meditate that we all are imperfect, very limited, insufficient. God expects humility, not perfection.

 

[StTommyMore]

This morning at Mass someone decided to distribute the Gospel reading between the priestly celebrant and two lay readers while adding piano accompaniment and a little call and response by the cantor throughout the reading.

This is what is called a liturgical abuse. Set up a meeting with the priest, and voice your concerns in a charitable manner. If he does not respond in a satisfactory manner, then write a letter to the bishop.

 

[StTommyMore]

The sin of the pharisees was that the mistook the words of the Law with the will of God. The Law was Saint, given by God, but just a temporary instrument, not the goal. The pharisee believed that if the keep the Law, that will force God to their side. Jesus repeatedly rebuked them: the Law is not ultimate, not absolute.

Neither is the the rubrics.

In the good old times the Passion was read by three people, since usually there were not three priests, it was read by three laymen. They simply resolved the rubrical problems saying that this is not the proclamation of the Gospel, but reading a passage from the Scriptures.

In the Good old times, the worship of God was the center, not the rubrics.

If you are disturbed that the performance was imperfect, meditate that we all are imperfect, very limited, insufficient. God expects humility, not perfection.

Do not confuse the Passion…which is read by three priests, or if three priests are not available, two laymen and a priest. This past Sunday the Passion was not read, and the Gospel in NEVER to be read by a layman in the context of Liturgy. The Liturgy is not a place for experimentation and doing whatever you want. As much as liberals wanted Vatican II to say this, it did not.

 

[Lapey]

The sin of the pharisees was that the mistook the words of the Law with the will of God. The Law was Saint, given by God, but just a temporary instrument, not the goal. The pharisee believed that if the keep the Law, that will force God to their side. Jesus repeatedly rebuked them: the Law is not ultimate, not absolute.

Neither is the the rubrics.

In the good old times the Passion was read by three people, since usually there were not three priests, it was read by three laymen. They simply resolved the rubrical problems saying that this is not the proclamation of the Gospel, but reading a passage from the Scriptures.

In the Good old times, the worship of God was the center, not the rubrics.

If you are disturbed that the performance was imperfect, meditate that we all are imperfect, very limited, insufficient. God expects humility, not perfection.

Are you serious here? You’re comparing the perversion of the Law of Moses by the Pharisees to the following of rubrics in the mass? The rubrics are there for a reason, to keep the mass consistent and heavenly.

 

[benedictgal]

The sin of the pharisees was that the mistook the words of the Law with the will of God. The Law was Saint, given by God, but just a temporary instrument, not the goal. The pharisee believed that if the keep the Law, that will force God to their side. Jesus repeatedly rebuked them: the Law is not ultimate, not absolute.

Neither is the the rubrics.

In the good old times the Passion was read by three people, since usually there were not three priests, it was read by three laymen. They simply resolved the rubrical problems saying that this is not the proclamation of the Gospel, but reading a passage from the Scriptures.

In the Good old times, the worship of God was the center, not the rubrics.

If you are disturbed that the performance was imperfect, meditate that we all are imperfect, very limited, insufficient. God expects humility, not perfection.

Actually, God did dictate the norms and rubrics. He spent no little time telling Moses exactly how, when and where He wanted to be worshipped. Furthermore, the Old Testament records instances where God severely punished those who violated the norms that He set forth. One only has to look at the example of Aaron’s sons.

The Passion, while being broken down into parts, has one caveat: when this happens, and laity are involved, the part of Christ is reserved to the priest.

What the OP witnessed was a serious violation of the rubrics and should not be taken lightly. It is sad that there are those who do not think that the norms matter. Evidently, the Church does not hold this viewpoint.

 

[laszlo]

Do not confuse the Passion…which is read by three priests, or if three priests are not available, two laymen and a priest. This past Sunday the Passion was not read, and the Gospel in NEVER to be read by a layman in the context of Liturgy. The Liturgy is not a place for experimentation and doing whatever you want. As much as liberals wanted Vatican II to say this, it did not.

I attended new form Mass yesterday, and know that the Gospel reading was the resurection of Lazar. 44 verses, 888 words. Too long for proclaiming, just as the the Passion. It is read, not proclaimed.

There is no rubrics, that only priests can read the Gospel. I read it every day. Do you read it at least sometimes?

I recommend to meditate on you what the pharisees did in Jesus time. They claimed that the Law is not experimentation. Jesus repeatedly showed them, that the Law is secondary.

 

[japhy]

The Gospel readings for the past three weeks (and next week) are already long as they are… why make them longer by adding musical interludes?

Distributing the parts of the Gospel to multiple people is something that can be done in a non-liturgical (or even para-liturgical) setting, like a Bible Study, but with the exceptions of the Passion readings on Palm Sunday and Good Friday, it doesn’t belong in the Mass.

I would say that the efforts and energies of the people involved in the planning and execution of the “reading of the Gospel in parts” (whatever you want to call it) could be better directed to things that are permitted and could be done better than they currently are.

 

[benedictgal]

I attended new form Mass yesterday, and know that the Gospel reading was the resurection of Lazar. 44 verses, 888 words. Too long for proclaiming, just as the the Passion. It is read, not proclaimed.

There is no rubrics, that only priests can read the Gospel. I read it every day. Do you read it at least sometimes?

I recommend to meditate on you what the pharisees did in Jesus time. They claimed that the Law is not experimentation. Jesus repeatedly showed them, that the Law is secondary.

Here are the rubrics for the reading/proclamation of the Gospel during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass:

In Masses without a deacon:

1. At the ambo, the priest opens the book and, with hands joined, says, Dominus vobiscum (The Lord be with you), and the people respond, Et cum spiritu tuo (And also with you). Then he says, Lectio sancti Evangelii (A reading from the holy gospel), making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth, and breast, which everyone else does as well. The people say the acclamation Gloria tibi, Domine (Glory to you, Lord). The priest incenses the book, if incense is used (cf. below, nos. 276-277). Then he proclaims the Gospel and at the end says the acclamation Verbum Domini (The gospel of the Lord), to which all respond, Laus tibi, Christe (Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ). The priest kisses the book, saying quietly, Per evangelica dicta (May the words of the gospel).

In Masses with a deacon:

1. If incense is used, the deacon assists the priest when he puts incense in the thurible during the singing of the Alleluia or other chant. Then he makes a profound bow before the priest and asks for the blessing, saying in a low voice, Iube, domine, benedicere (Father, give me your blessing). The priest blesses him, saying, Dominus sit in corde tuo (The Lord be in your heart). The deacon signs himself with the Sign of the Cross and responds, Amen. Having bowed to the altar, he then takes up the Book of the Gospels which was placed upon it. He proceeds to the ambo, carrying the book slightly elevated. He is preceded by a thurifer, carrying a thurible with smoking incense, and by servers with lighted candles. There the deacon, with hands joined, greets the people, saying, Dominus vobiscum (The Lord be with you). Then, at the words Lectio sancti Evangelii (A reading from the holy gospel), he signs the book with his thumb and, afterwards, himself on his forehead, mouth, and breast. He incenses the book and proclaims the Gospel reading. When the reading is concluded, he says the acclamation Verbum Domini (The gospel of the Lord), and all respond, Laus tibi, Christe (Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ). He then venerates the book with a kiss, saying privately, Per evangelica dicta (May the words of the gospel), and returns to the priest’s side.

From Redemptionis Sacramentum:

63.] Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”,139 is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister.140 Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.141

The crux of the question lies in just who can proclaim the Gospel Reading during Mass on Sundays. The rubrics pretty much answer that.

 

[benedictgal]

I attended new form Mass yesterday, and know that the Gospel reading was the resurection of Lazar. 44 verses, 888 words. Too long for proclaiming, just as the the Passion. It is read, not proclaimed.

There is no rubrics, that only priests can read the Gospel. I read it every day. Do you read it at least sometimes?

I recommend to meditate on you what the pharisees did in Jesus time. They claimed that the Law is not experimentation. Jesus repeatedly showed them, that the Law is secondary.

However, the law that the pharisees were concerned about centered on applying priestly practices to the Jewish faithful. That is vastly different from the norms and prescriptions that dealt with the cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. Jesus never had any qualms about this integral part of the Law, which Jesus fulfilled.

 

[StTommyMore]

I attended new form Mass yesterday, and know that the Gospel reading was the resurection of Lazar. 44 verses, 888 words. Too long for proclaiming, just as the the Passion. It is read, not proclaimed.

There is no rubrics, that only priests can read the Gospel. I read it every day. Do you read it at least sometimes?

I recommend to meditate on you what the pharisees did in Jesus time. They claimed that the Law is not experimentation. Jesus repeatedly showed them, that the Law is secondary.

I NEVER read it in the context of the Liturgy. That is reserved for those in Holy Orders alone. The Law is not, and never has been, secondary. Jesus himself said “If you love me, keep my commandments” Furthermore the Church has the authority to enact new laws. To reject the bishops is to reject the Father and the Son.