MERGED: Is this allowed?/Gospel Interruption/Lay Gospel readers

[Lapey]

I attended new form Mass yesterday, and know that the Gospel reading was the resurection of Lazar. 44 verses, 888 words. Too long for proclaiming, just as the the Passion. It is read, not proclaimed. There was a shorter version supplied by the Church, at least in the US, if it was found to be “too long.” My opinion, it was the whole story intended for this weekend, how can it be too long?

There is no rubrics, that only priests can read the Gospel. I read it every day. Do you read it at least sometimes? Yes there are rubrics, benedicgal has listed them. Also, I do proclaim the gospel in mass, if you do you do it ilicitly, I am a deacon. If you are unordained, you are not qualified to proclaim the gospel. PS. many read the gospel, not in mass. That is reserved to the deacon or priest if there is no deacon.

I recommend to meditate on you what the pharisees did in Jesus time. I commented on this with a question earlier, you chose to ignore it, I wonder why.They claimed that the Law is not experimentation. Jesus repeatedly showed them, that the Law is secondary.

 

[Lapey]

I attended new form Mass yesterday, and know that the Gospel reading was the resurection of Lazar. 44 verses, 888 words. Too long for proclaiming, just as the the Passion. It is read, not proclaimed.

There is no rubrics, that only priests can read the Gospel. I read it every day. Do you read it at least sometimes?

I recommend to meditate on you what the pharisees did in Jesus time. They claimed that the Law is not experimentation. Jesus repeatedly showed them, that the Law is secondary.

I believe, as you put it, we should listen to Jesus, “I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.”

 

[Donahuec]

The past two Sundays our pastor has read the Gospel along with two lay people. Each takes turns reading a section. There is a periodic response for the people.

Is this allowed? I know that is how the Gospel for Palm Sunday has been done for years.
Is this being extended to the last couple of Sundays in Lent?

Thanks,
Cathy

 

[Brendan]

However, the law that the pharisees were concerned about centered on applying priestly practices to the Jewish faithful.

Correct, like us (the inheritors of the Covenant) the Jews has both a common priesthood and a Levitical priesthood.

What the Pharisees were doing was imposing the responsibilities of the Levitcal priesthood upon the common priesthood.

Which is pretty much what these parishes are doing when the have the laity read parts of the Gospel.

 

[pnewton]

Please forgive me…but why are so many people so intent on finding “errors” in the mass?

It is not our place to police the mass.

I think you have a point, in that there are a few that tend to put a greater focus on finding an error in Mass than finding Jesus in the Mass. However, that is not the case with the OP or most people that question liturgical deviance. Most who have a problem with some abuse is because it is so in-your-face and distracting as to disturb one’s peace. We are imperfect creatures and sometimes we forget our priorities. It is precisely this human failing that makes following the GIRM so important, not to satisfy those who are looking for fault, but for those for whom the fault interferes with the spiritual worship.

 

[JamestheOlder]

As near as I can determine/remember, the Gospel reading is reserved to the deacon or another priest; if none is present, then the Celebrant reads the Gospel.

The only exception to this has been the reading of the Passion during Holy Week…and that must be an exception by custom, because it is certainly NOT allowed in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal (GIRM) or Canon Law. Be aware that even in that ONE case, the Celebrant speaks the words of Christ.

Hope that helps! God bless!

 

[Pakesh]

This is actually the third thread on this! I brought this up several weeks ago. Perhaps the moderators will merge this with that thread. The consensus is it is indeed a liturgical abuse and is not permitted.

God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[Pakesh]

. However, that is not the case with the OP or most people that question liturgical deviance. Most who have a problem with some abuse is because it is so in-your-face and distracting as to disturb one’s peace.

As the OP, I really appreciate this sentiment-thank you. I posted this exactly because it was a “smack in face” for me, and I had a hard time following the Gospel. Now, most of the time when I feel like the Pharisees (meaning looking for mistakes), I push that out of my mind and pray to God for help. But in this case, it was just such a huge abuse that I couldn’t believe it.

Thanks and God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[John_Lilburne]

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“109. … But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.”

 

[Spelling]

Actually, unfortunately, it is our place.

If so many priests would just do what they are required to do - Say the Black, do the Red - as directed by the Liturgical Law ( the General Instructions of the Roman Missal), without tweaking the liturgy as they want, we would not. But, we, the laity, are entitled to an authentic liturgy, exactly as laid down by the Church.

If only priests would be obedient to the Church and get a spine when it comes to members of the laity wanting some things in the Mass just because they are “nice”.

**“Say the Black, do the Red” ** is a cute catch phrase and all but it answers no questions.

 

[StTommyMore]

**“Say the Black, do the Red” ** is a cute catch phrase and all but it answers no questions.

I have a stellar idea. Instead of complaining about those who wish to be faithful to the rubrics, why don’t you look into reading about the liturgy to find out why its important?

 

[Phemie]

There is no rubrics, that only priests can read the Gospel. I read it every day. Do you read it at least sometimes?

We are talking about Mass. There is no rubric that says that only the priest can proclaim the Gospel at Mass, since that ministry properly belongs to the Deacon. On the other hand, there are rubrics that say that lay persons do not proclaim the Gospel, except the Passion, and that only the Passion may be divided into parts and read by more than one person.

1. The lector is instituted to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture, with the exception of the Gospel. He may also announce the intentions for the Prayer of the Faithful and, in the absence of a psalmist, proclaim the Psalm between the readings.
2. In the absence of an instituted lector, other laypersons may be commissioned to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture.
3. If there are several persons present who are able to exercise the same ministry, nothing forbids their distributing among themselves and performing different parts of the same ministry or duty. For example, one deacon may be assigned to take the sung parts, another to serve at the altar; if there are several readings, it is well to distribute them among a number of lectors. The same applies for the other ministries. But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.

 

[Spelling]

This is what is called a liturgical abuse. Set up a meeting with the priest, and voice your concerns in a charitable manner. If he does not respond in a satisfactory manner, then write a letter to the bishop.

LOL!

Is that how things work in your diocese?

I did e-mail my pastor and to his credit he responded by 09:00 this morning. In essence he said that in this case, beauty was in the eye of the beholder. I know for a fact that the Gospel proclamation was butchered at least as bad at the other Masses so I’m not sure what he was referring to.

He said he is going to take my question to the head of the Diocesan Office of Divine Worship (a nun) and the Bishop. I guarantee that this horrible practice will be supported by both. My pastor also recommended the reference “Gospel Proclamations for the Scrutinies” taken from volume II of Who Calls You By Name by Victoria M. Tufano and David Hass…

 

[Spelling]

I have a stellar idea. Instead of complaining about those who wish to be faithful to the rubrics, why don’t you look into reading about the liturgy to find out why its important?

I’ve read a great deal about the history of the Church and the different sacrificial liturgies. Sometime we’ll compare bookshelves. You advice “This is what is called a liturgical abuse. Set up a meeting with the priest, and voice your concerns in a charitable manner. If he does not respond in a satisfactory manner, then write a letter to the bishop.” had me chuckling. To help you understand, here was my note to him:

"Hi Fr. Frank;

Hope all is well with you. Can you please explain to me why a Church-prohibited “dialogue” style of reading the Gospel using laypersons was used this morning complete with piano accompaniment and intermittent singing? Not only are laypersons prohibited from proclaiming the Gospel (GIRM #59, RS 63) it’s also wrong to divide a single element of the celebration among several individuals (GIRM 109.)

Even if the practice were permitted by the Church it was horribly planned and executed. The celebrant, readers, cantor and pianist had obviously never practiced their routine together as a group. It was painful to listen to. We actually halted the proclamation of the Gospel at several points to sing! It stuns me to see the very words of Jesus Christ treated in such a cavalier manner within the context of the Mass.

The Church has long approved the “dialogue” style of reading the Gospel (sans music of course) on Palm Sunday and Good Friday. That’s great but why turn the proclamation of the Gospel into a disjointed sideshow at other Masses during Lent? Even if the intent was to underscore the importance of the Gospel message (which it abjectly failed to do) why do something like this during a penitential season like Lent where austerity should be the norm?

So I ask again. Why are Catholics exposed to such prohibited abominations at Sts. Peter & Paul? I would honestly like to know. I dislike having to write such an e-mail. It’s not my responsibility to be a liturgical auditor. But this morning’s butchering of the Gospel was so horrible that it demands I ask the above questions. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely in Christ;

Charlie

Refs:

Redemptionis Sacramentum #63: “Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”, is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister. Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.

GIRM #59. By tradition, the function of proclaiming the readings is ministerial, not presidential. The readings, therefore, should be proclaimed by a lector, and the Gospel by a deacon or, in his absence, a priest other than the celebrant. If, however, a deacon or another priest is not present, the priest celebrant himself should read the Gospel. Further, if another suitable lector is also not present, then the priest celebrant should also proclaim the other readings.

GIRM #109: If there are several persons present who are able to exercise the same ministry, nothing forbids their distributing among themselves and performing different parts of the same ministry or duty. For example, one deacon may be assigned to take the sung parts, another to serve at the altar; if there are several readings, it is well to distribute them among a number of lectors. The same applies for the other ministries. But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned."

 

[Spelling]

Please forgive me…but why are so many people so intent on finding “errors” in the mass?

You are there to be with God and yet it seems like some people are really only going so that they can police the mass and make sure the Priest doesn’t somehow mess it up.

IE…We had a guest speaker and they spoke after the homily instead of after communion!! The priest wore Green Vestments and it is Lent…isn’t he supposed to wear Purple!! They allowed a WOMAN to “preach”!!!

It is not our place to police the mass.

I think your belief has facilitated a huge amount of abuse within the Church over the ages. I agree that the last thing we need are non/under-educated Mass auditors with their dog eared copies of the GIRM and RS shooting off vitriolic letters at any hint of non-compliance, but sometimes we do have to step-up.

 

[StTommyMore]

LOL!

Is that how things work in your diocese?

I did e-mail my pastor and to his credit he responded by 09:00 this morning. In essence he said that in this case, beauty was in the eye of the beholder. I know for a fact that the Gospel proclamation was butchered at least as bad at the other Masses so I’m not sure what he was referring to.

He said he is going to take my question to the head of the Diocesan Office of Divine Worship (a nun) and the Bishop. I guarantee that this horrible practice will be supported by both. My pastor also recommended the reference “Gospel Proclamations for the Scrutinies” taken from volume II of Who Calls You By Name by Victoria M. Tufano and David Hass…

Perhaps he needs to be reminded that no one can make modifications to the Mass, according to SC.

 

[The_Rock]

We have been subject to this abuse at our parish for over a decade. It started with just the one gospel reading about the woman at the well (a woman reading the woman’s “part”) and grew till what we have now… every Gospel reading during lent uses multiple lay readers.

It gets worse; There is a “liturgical setting” going around at some parishes (no longer ours) where the congregation sings short “responses” to nearly every sentence the priest says DURING THE CANON OF THE MASS! There is even a “response” sung during the elevation of the consecrated host before the wine is consecrated

 

[Spelling]

Perhaps he needs to be reminded that no one can make modifications to the Mass, according to SC.

Yeah, that will help!

The ultimate reply for the horrible skit I saw on Sunday will be that “the bishop approves of it.” I do appreciate my pastor getting back to me and being so open. At least I understand the process he and the diocese uses to justify things that should not take place.

 

[Spelling]

We have been subject to this abuse at our parish for over a decade. It started with just the one gospel reading about the woman at the well (a woman reading the woman’s “part”) and grew till what we have now… every Gospel reading during lent uses multiple lay readers.

It gets worse; There is a “liturgical setting” going around at some parishes (no longer ours) where the congregation sings short “responses” to nearly every sentence the priest says DURING THE CANON OF THE MASS! There is even a “response” sung during the elevation of the consecrated host before the wine is consecrated

You know I think if one was really able to get to the root of the problem in my parish/diocese, one of the main reasons this “dialogue reading” is taking place is due to sexism. The sister in charge of the Diocesan Office of Divine Worship who cooked this up did so in my estimation at least partially to find a way that the bishop would approve that effectively allows women to proclaim part of the Gospel in a Mass setting. It’s rather sickening.

It was bad enough that I thought my pastor might squelch it. When I heard the Masses that he celebrated went just as bad if not worse, I decided to write to him. As soon as he came back with “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” and something a long the lines of “it provided a beautiful preaching opportunity” I knew he was definitely on board with the abuse and his backside HAS been covered by the bishop.

 

[The_Rock]

You know I think if one was really able to get to the root of the problem in my parish/diocese, one of the main reasons this “dialogue reading” is taking place is due to sexism. The sister in charge of the Diocesan Office of Divine Worship who cooked this up did so in my estimation at least partially to find a way that the bishop would approve that effectively allows women to proclaim part of the Gospel in a Mass setting. It’s rather sickening.

In all probability you have it right. Our former pastor bowed to all the wishes of the feminists at our parish (gender inclusive language, lay women taking on other roles in the parish reserved to the priest etc. etc.) One of these feminists was the first one to read the “part” of the woman at the well. The seemingly obligatory homily each year was about how Jesus defied the stereotypical gender roles buy talking to this woman; which is true, but hardly the most profound insight that can be drawn from this rich Gospel.