MERGED: Mel Gibson 's New Church/A protestant?

[JOHNYJ]

Montie Claunch:

But, If Mel is not in communion with Rome, why did he have interviews with EWTN? Wouldn’t that go against the grain?

EWTN was using " the greater good theory ."
The movie " The Passion of the Christ " was such a plus for the church and christianity.They simply ignored the fact that the creator of the movie was an Excommunicated schismatic.

 

[bear06]

Wisdom:

Well bear how often is this even addressed in the real world. Witness the chaos of the Terry Schiavo fiasco, she was given the annointing of the sick, holy communion, the viacitum, all by priest not in union with the local bishop. Where these sacraments not valid?
You know the local bishop had instructed his local priests to stay out of the matter and so they did. Terry’s family therefore resorted to having out of state friars, retired priests etc give the sacrametns to their dying daughter. Of course since the Bishop was in Thailand for the entire incident he did not reverse his previous instruction of staying out the issue. All I am saying is that indivudal priests that are not under a dioceese tend to do their own thing since they don’t answer to the local bishop. The Jesuits, the Soceity of St Peter and now Fr Pavone’s new order don’t answer to local bishops. So don’t be suprised if Fr Pavone visits the LA area when Cardianal Mahoney rips secret emails to his priest to stay out of a Terry Schiavo like issue.

I am very familiar with the Schiavo case. When was her priest ever suspended, censured, etc. by Bishop Lynch? Also, when did Bishop Lynch revoke faculties from any of these priests you mentioned? While Bishop Lynch is going to have much to answer for, I’m pretty sure, other than telling his priests not to protest at the hospice, that he didn’t revoke the faculties of Msgr. Malankowski. BTW, if you read the canon, priests have emergency faculties when death is imminentn so even if Bishop Lynch had removed faculties, all of these priests would have been able to hear confession. Even an SSPX priest could hear a confession if he runs across someone about to die.

 

[bear06]

Montie Claunch:

But, If Mel is not in communion with Rome, why did he have interviews with EWTN? Wouldn’t that go against the grain?

Come on now. No matter Mel’s position, that movie was awesome. They would have promoted it even if a protestant had done it. Like I said, most Catholic interviewers had a don’t ask, don’t tell policy on that one.

 

[bear06]

Mel does not,

According to whom? Mel? His father doesn’t think he belongs to a schismatic church either.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

bear06:

Come on now. No matter Mel’s position, that movie was awesome. They would have promoted it even if a protestant had done it. Like I said, most Catholic interviewers had a don’t ask, don’t tell policy on that one.

And I have issues with that fact. I am not comfortable with the fact that the money I spent on the movie would be used in the support of a schismatic group.

Yes the movie was great, but the profits from it are not being used in a good manner, IMHO.

 

[Ignatius]

bear06:

Here’s the canons on this issue. I’d look into the ones on marriage as well:

However, one does not have to be under Cardinal Mahoney. I have gone to Melkite and Ruthenian Catholic Churches that have no connection whatsoever with Cardinal Mahoney. Also, the Jesuits and the Society of Saint Peter don’t have strict regional prophibitions under the local diocese.

In my opinion, Cardinal Mahoney is much further out of line with the Magisterium than Mel Gibson is.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Ignatius:

However, one does not have to be under Cardinal Mahoney.

If they are Latin Rite and are within the Los Angeless diocese, then they must have permission from local Latin Rite Ordinary in accord with canon law. All available evidence suggests Gibson’s church is illicit.

CBS News reports “Actor Mel Gibson is the person behind a 9,300-square-foot, Mission-style Catholic church complex in Malibu, Calif., that is not affiliated with any diocese.” (“Mel Gibson gets religion”, CBS News.org, 10 Mar 2003)

Cardinal Roger Mahony from the Diocese of Los Angeles stated regarding Gibson’s Church: “I know nothing about the Church in Malibu. It **is certainly not in communion with the Universal Catholic Church nor the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. **I have never met Mr. Gibson, and he does not participate in any parish of this Archdiocese. He, apparently, has chosen to live apart from the communion of the Catholic Church. I pray for him.” (nfcym.org/v3/resources/passion_mahony.html Feb 20, 2004).

Mel Gibson is quoted by an Australian newspaper as saying: “I agree with everyone who says the Vatican is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.” (“Mel Gibson’s only daughter opts to be a nun,” Sydney Morning Herald, 15 Sep 2002).

 

[Montie_Claunch]

JOHNYJ:

EWTN was using " the greater good theory ."
The movie " The Passion of the Christ " was such a plus for the church and christianity.They simply ignored the fact that the creator of the movie was an Excommunicated schismatic.

Oh, Good point.

And he was Excommunicated?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Ignatius:

In my opinion, Cardinal Mahoney is much further out of line with the Magisterium than Mel Gibson is.

Respectfully your opinion does not matter, it is only the opinion of the Church that matters in such cases.

Cardinal Mahoney is not in schism, but it does appear that Mel Gibson is.

 

[Ignatius]

ByzCath:

Respectfully your opinion does not matter, it is only the opinion of the Church that matters in such cases.

Cardinal Mahoney is not in schism, but it does appear that Mel Gibson is.

Cardinal Mahoney is in open defiance against the directives of the Magisterium against the use of liturgical dance and many other Liturgical abuses. Whereas I have seen no actual evidence that Mel Gibson is in schism, only innuendo. How about some actual evidence rather than unfounded rumours.

Also, the Society of Saint Peter, although in full communion with the Holy See (in fact I believe that the Society of Saint Peter was created at the express direction of His Holiness Pope John Paul II of blessed memory), is not under the local diocese.

 

[Anima_Christi]

malachi_a_serva:

Weird coincidence, I was just searching the web on this very topic yesterday as I watched Braveheart and my son watched Passion of the Christ…so I thought I would look it up.

religioustolerance.org/chrgibson1.htm

Apparently, this is the church he either funded all or partially.

holyfamilychapel.org/

Are you sure? The website says this church is in South Carolina. Isn’t Mel Gibson’s chapel in Malibu?

 

[Wisdom]

Mother Angelica had it out with Cardinal Mahoney a while back and was threatened by the man as to excommunicate her. Mel is is good company if he is in Cardinal Mahoney’s doghouse.

 

[bear06]

Ignatius:

Cardinal Mahoney is in open defiance against the directives of the Magisterium against the use of liturgical dance and many other Liturgical abuses. Whereas I have seen no actual evidence that Mel Gibson is in schism, only innuendo. How about some actual evidence rather than unfounded rumours.

Also, the Society of Saint Peter, although in full communion with the Holy See (in fact I believe that the Society of Saint Peter was created at the express direction of His Holiness Pope John Paul II of blessed memory), is not under the local diocese.

I believe, as a rule, they do not enter into any diocese in which they are not welcomed or even invited by the local bishop. I also don’t believe that they were created at the express direction of His Holiness. They were members of the SSPX who wished to remain in communion with Rome. Besides this, it would appear that they are subject to the local bishop which is one of the reasons the schismatics don’t like them.

national-coalition.org/latin-rite/latinact.html
traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=5&catname=4 - This is from Fr. Cekada. I wouldn’t normally recommend him but it proves my point.

I’d search on fssp, facutlies and local bishop for more articles on the subject.

Mel Gibson’s spiritual advisor does not say he is FSSP. He says he’s an “independent Traditionalist”. Independent Traditionalist is a term that is usually used by those who do not have approval from the Holy See.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Anima Christi:

Are you sure? The website says this church is in South Carolina. Isn’t Mel Gibson’s chapel in Malibu?

My mistake, you are 100% correct. I thought, why would Mel’s church be published and so easy to find?..I guess it isn’t.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Holy_Family_in_Malibu

The above link states this about the church, "sedevacantist traditional Catholics who reject the liturgical and pastoral reforms following the Second Vatican Council and seek to worship in the way they believe all Roman-Catholics always had until the 1960s.

Mel Gibson funded the construction of the chapel, and the congregation has procured the services of an independent priest."

 

[Ignatius]

bear06:

I believe, as a rule, they do not enter into any diocese in which they are not welcomed or even invited by the local bishop. I also don’t believe that they were created at the express direction of His Holiness. They were members of the SSPX who wished to remain in communion with Rome.

That is incorrect. The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP) is a Clerical Society of Apostolic Live of Pontifical right, that is, a community of Roman Catholic priests who report directly to the Pope. The society started with thirty seminarians read to start “from scratch”.

Here is some more interesting information on the subject.

The mission of the Fraternity is two-fold: first, the formation and sanctification of priests in the cadre of the Traditional Catholic rite, and secondly, the pastoral deployment of the priests in the service of the Church.

The Fraternity was founded on July 18, 1988. Shortly after the Fraternity’s foundation and following upon a request by Cardinal Ratzinger, they were granted a home in Wigratzbad, a Marian shrine in Bavaria that now lodges the Fraternity’s European seminary.

The Fraternity has organized its seminary training in accordance with the Church’s norms on priestly formation, including a year of more intense spiritual preparation before entering the cycles of philosophy and theology.

With the full approval of the Holy See, the priests provide a full sacramental life for the faithful, administered according to the Traditional Catholic liturgical books of 1962.

Having a problem with a disobedient bishop doesn’t make on a schesmatic. And, as Wisdom pointed out,

Mother Angelica had it out with Cardinal Mahoney a while back and was threatened by the man as to excommunicate her. Mel is is good company if he is in Cardinal Mahoney’s doghouse.

It should also be pointed out that he donated $100 million of the earnings of The Passion of the Christ to the Catholic church. That doesn’t sound like something a schematic would do.

Accusing anyone who is a Traditional Catholic of being a schematic is bearing false witness, plain and simple. As I said before, we have more than one liberal bishop who stand in open defiance against the directives of the Magisterium in a number of areas.

They are kind of like those Japanese soldiers after WWII, holding out on remote islands decades after the surrender, not wanting to believe that they had lost the war.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Ignatius:

That is incorrect. The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP) is a Clerical Society of Apostolic Live of Pontifical right, that is, a community of Roman Catholic priests who report directly to the Pope. The society started with thirty seminarians read to start “from scratch”.

While this is true no religious order can act publicly within a diocese without being granted faculties by the local ordinary.

For example. Here where I live, a Carmelite formation house. A visiting Carmelite priest may celebrate Mass in our chapel for the communtiy, but to go to the parish next door and celebrate Mass he would have to be granted faculties by the Archbishop of Galveston - Houston.

No priest can just show up and celebrate a public Mass in any diocese without the permission of the local ordinary.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Ignatius:

…
Also, the Society of Saint Peter, although in full communion with the Holy See (in fact I believe that the Society of Saint Peter was created at the express direction of His Holiness Pope John Paul II of blessed memory),*** is not under the local diocese***.

The indult that the FSSP operate under can be read here:
latin-mass-society.org/indult.htm
It states:

… the Supreme Pontiff, in a desire to meet the wishes of these groups, grants to diocesan bishops the possibility of using an indult whereby priests and faithful, who shall be expressly indicated in the letter of request to be presented to their own bishop, may be able to celebrate Mass by using the Roman Missal according to the 1962 edition, but under the following conditions…

… b) Such celebration must be made only for the benefit of those groups that request it; in churches and oratories indicated by the bishop (not, however, in parish churches, unless the bishop permits it in extraordinary cases); and on the days and under the conditions fixed by the bishop either habitually or in individual cases."

Whatever do you mean that that the FSSP is “not under the local diocese?” If you mean that it can operate apart from the indult granted by the Holy See, which states the conditions of the indult, then you are incorrect.

If your FSSP has a different indult than the FSSP in my diocese, then please provide what that indults states. The FSSP in my diocese must abide by the direction given them by the local Ordinary, Most. Rev. Michael Sheridan, in accordance with the indult by the Holy See.

Nonetheless, Mother Angelica did not disregard canon law as Gibson’s “parish” does. Gibson’s church does not operate under any indult of the Holy See, nor do they operate with permission from any diocesan bishop. They are simply not in communion with the Roman Pontiff, and as such remain schismatic.

You can read more about the FSSP here:
fssp.org/

I’ve attended their TLM, and it is beautifully celebrated in accord with the directives of the local diocesan bishop.

In short, they have an indult and operate under its conditions. Gibson and his schismatic group does not.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

According to Rev. Msgr. Camille Perl, Secretary of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesi Dei, in reply to others like Gibson’s Church who celebrate the 1962 liturgy without indult…

You also state in your letter that the Holy Father has given you a ‘right’ to the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. This is not correct. It is true that he has asked his brother Bishops to be generous in providing for the celebration of this Mass, but he has not stated that it is a ‘right’. Presently it constitutes an exception to the Church’s law and may be granted when the local Bishop judges it to be a valid pastoral service and when he has the priests who are available to celebrate it. (Pontificia Commissio “Ecclesia Dei” January 18, 2003 )

Consequently, you can see that the Holy See disgrees that any priest can simply choose to celebrate the 1962 Mass publically unless they have an indult under the conditions set by the judgment of the LOCAL BISHOP.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Hi all, what is the difference between a Mass in 1962 from one now?

 

[bear06]

That is incorrect. The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP) is a Clerical Society of Apostolic Live of Pontifical right

, that is, a community of Roman Catholic priests who report directly to the Pope. The society started with thirty seminarians read to start “from scratch”.

Sorry, I believe you are wrong on both counts. ewtn.com/expert/answers/sspx_fssp.htm

I know for a fact, they are not in our diocese because the old bishop did not welcome them and the new bishop has chosen to go with the Institute for Christ the King. There are many people involved with them from a neighboring diocese who wanted them to come here.

Besides all of this, who ever said the Mel’s priest at his chapel is FSSP in the first place? Did I miss it? Read the canons again. A group, like FSSP, may do confessions and marriages (of course their members don’t marry) for their members without permission. Outside of that, they need faculties from the local bishop.